Questioning the Rapture

[Vic C.]

Drew, your post is unclear as to whether or not you question the validity of a Rapture (harpazio).

Clarification:

The point being you guys seem to have an ego big enough to think you will be in that number.

No one here believes any of us are one of those 144,000. They are not representatives of the Ekklesia.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

These 144,000 above are not part of any Rapture.

 

[Drew]

Drew, your post is unclear as to whether or not you question the validity of a Rapture (harpazio).

I originally posted the view of NT Wright, who clearly does not believe in the "we'll be caught up in the air" type of rapture. In the post, I qoute Wright as saying

"At Jesus’ “coming†or “appearing,†those who are still alive will be “changed†or “transformed†so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but here he borrows imageryâ€â€from biblical and political sourcesâ€â€to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later"

I tend to agree with Wright - there will be no "caught up in the air" type of rapture. However, my belief is relatively "soft" and is grounded largely in the strong reputation of Wright, as well as my respect for a number of friends of mine (all serious students of the Scripture) who have concluded that the commonly held view is mistaken.

 

[Quasar]

The Rapture and End Times Chronology -

Hi friends -

The prophetic chronological timing of end times events as outlined in the Bible are as follows:

1. The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:4-7, referred to as Jacob's Trouble.

2. In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 'weeks' of years He has decreed upon the entire history of Israel, the length of time involved in the tribulation is revealed, along with the person who will set it off. The antichrist, who will establish a seven year covenant with them. Dan.9:27.

3. Jesus confirmation of Daniel's 70th and final 'week,' consisting of the abomination that causes desolation, in His ministry to the 'lost sheep of Israel. Mt.24:15.

4. The fig trees have sprouted leaves, we can see for ourselves and know that summer is near. Lk.21:29. Which began with the new nation of Israel, when it was established on May 14, 1948.

5. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ will be raptured, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. Jn.14:2-4, 28, 1 Thes.4:14-18, Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ through those who are still alive at His return for His Church.

6. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceding the revealing of the Antichrist, who then immediately triggers the 70th and final week in God's decree upon Israel, the seven years of tribulation. 2 Thes.2:3-8, in perfect harmony with Dan.9:27.

7. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is in heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2, while the tribulation is taking place and is not heard about again until the wedding with the Lamb [Jesus Christ] takes place with His Bride, the Church, in heaven. Rev.19:7-8.

8. Jesus returns from heaven - with His Church following Him on white horses, and dressed in fine linen, which stands for the righteous acts of the saints, white and clean - in His Second Coming to the earth. Zech.14:4-5, Jude 14, and Rev.19:14. [NIV]

9. Jesus ends the war of Armageddon, saves the remnant of Israel, who then recognize Him as their Messiah [Zech.12:10, and 'all Israel [A remnant] will be saved' [Rom.11:26]. The Antichrist and false prophet along with their armies are defeated and the two of them are thrown into the lake of fire, and their armies are all killed by the sword. Rev.19:20-21.

10. Satan is caught and thrown into the Abyss for the 1,000 years that Jesus will reign, in His kingdom here on the earth. Rev.20:1-3.

11. The first resurrection takes place which consists of all those who were martyred during the tribulation. They were not believers in Jesus Christ at the time the tribulation began. Therefore, they do not belong to the Christian Church that was raptured previously. They will be priests of God and of Christ, and rule with Him for 1,000 years. Rev.20:4-6.

12. The Millennial Kingdom of Christ will consist of all those who survived the tribulation, besides the resurrected martyrs, and all the remnant of Israel. In numbers alone, from an estimated original 7 billion people, there will only be 2.3 billion remaining. Life expectancy will be greatly increased. Isa.65:20 and 11:6-9.

13. Satan will be released from the Abyss to once again go out to deceive the nations and people as the 1,000 year Kingdom reign of Christ on the earth ends. He will gather millions of people who come against God's people at Jerusalem. But God sends fire from heaven, as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying them and throwing Satan into the lake of fire. Rev.20:10.

14. The second resurrection takes place that consists of all the Godless and wicked and the great white throne is set up to judge them, right here on earth. The sea, death and Hades all give up their dead and will then be thrown into the lake of fire. Meaning, that all who were in the 'temporal holding tanks' of Sheol, Hades and Hell will be removed to face judgement, and along with death, disposed of forever. For all those who participate in the second resurrection, if their name is not found in the book of life, they will be thrown into the lake of fire. Rev.20:11-15.

15. The old heaven and earth passes away and God creates an all new heaven and earth, and the new eternal city of Jerusalem descends from heaven. Rev.21:1.

The rest of chapter 21 alludes to a description of the coming eternal city and life of all believers who will be with the Lord forever.

In His Love.

Quasar

 

[Quasar]

Who are the 144,000 ?

Hi friends,

What do the 144,000, from twelve of the tribes of Israel have to do with all of this? See the following for Scriptural clarification.

According to the Bible, both Jesus and Paul revealed to us, all of us who belong to Jesus, His Church, are to be CAUGHT UP [Raptured] to Him in the clouds of the sky, before the Antichrist is revealed who triggers the seven years of tribulation, that Israel has been decreed to go through.

[In connection with the Church = Jn.14:1-4 and 28; 1 Thes.4:14-18 and 2 Thes.2:1-8]. In connection with Israel = [Dan.9:27, where the person who 'confirms a covenant/treaty' with Israel is the Antichrist, for one 'week,' seven years. 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8. Also, Mt.24:29-31, Zech.14:4-5].

Jesus said He has two sheep folds, the one He was addressing, Israel, and the 'other one He must also bring,' the Church [Jn.10:16]. He prophecied that they will become one fold with one Shepherd. He also said, many who are first will be last [Israel] and many who are last will be first [The Church] in Mt.19:30.

He meant His Church will be caught up to be with Him before the tribulation and that Israel will go through the 70th and final 'week' [7 years] God decreed upon them in Dan.9:27, the tribulation. When Israel finally recognizes Jesus as their Messiah [Zech.12:10] , they will then come into the same sheep fold as the Church and become the one fold, with Jesus being the one Shepherd.


When the Church is Caught Up to be with the Lord. in the clouds of the sky, and go to heaven with Him, as He promised, in Jn.14:28, the Antichrist is revealed and the tribulation begins [Dan.9:27 and 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8].

When the seven seal overview of the tribulation has been completed in Rev.6, when the seventh seal that contains the seven trumpet plagues is about to take place, God introduces 144,000 that consists of 12,000 Israelites from twelve of their tribes, that He 'redeemed from the earth' [Rev.14:3]. God sealed them, and they became converted believers in Jesus Christ who will take the place of the Raptured Church. They will be put here to preach the Gospel in the absence of the Church [Rev.7:1-8].

The efforts of their work as evangelists is then revealed in the PARENTHETIC view of the huge multitude seen in heaven [Rev.7:9-17], which represents all of those who will be saved during the tribulation, all the martyrs who participate CHRONOLOGICALLY in the first resurrection of Rev.20:4-6.

When their work is finished, the 144,000 will also be translated into heaven, in Rev.14:1-5. When that happens, the earth will once again be without anyone to preach the Eternal Gospel. So God commissions an angel to do so in Rev.14:6-7.


Therefore, the 144,000 are all converted Israelis who take the place of the Raptured Church to preach the Gospel to all those who will be left behind when Jesus comes to take His Church with Him to our Father in heaven.

In His love,

Quasar

 

[Quasar]

Where do the 144,000 come from ?

Hi friends,

It is my own theory, that every Israeli from the days of Moses who died and were imputed by God as righteous, as was Abraham [Gen.15:6 and in many other places, in addition to Jesus narrative in Lk.16:19-31], all remained in the 'holding tank' of Sheol, in the earth below after their physical death. As seen in Ps.49:14-15, until after Jesus had died and shed His blood for them, to atone for their sins. As it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins [Heb.10:4].

Immediately following the crucifixion of Jesus, He went to the 'prison' [Sheol] and preached the Gospel to the spirit/souls who went all the way back to the days of Noah. per 1 Pet.3:18-20. For all the spirit/souls of the righteous Israelis who were there and believed in Jesus as their Messiah, their sins were washed away in His blood and they were then spotless virgins, 'their sins no more remembered' [Heb.10:7].

[The term used here of "spirit/souls," is because they are an integral duo that can only be separated by God, Heb.4:12. For example, our souls consist of our character, personality, emotions and everything else that make each of us a unique individual. The spirit is the 'body' for our souls, as seen in 1 Cor.15:44].

Forty days after Jesus resurrection, He ascended and took with Him [In my opinion], 'captives,' or 'the redeemed from the earth' [Rev.14:3], all the righteous ones who had been in Sheol, and believed in Him as their Messiah, when He preached to them [1 Pet.3:18-20] - as recorded in both Eph.4:7-10 as well as the prophecy seen in Ps.68:18. Taking them with Him when He went to heaven.

Therefore, it is my belief, the 144,000 were commissioned directly by God, to take the place of the raptured church, to preach the Gospel [Rev.7:1-8], in particular, to Israel, who must to go through the tribulation [Dan.9:27]. And came directly from heaven, as do the two witnesses, in Rev.11:3-6. As the Scriptures state, they will be redeemed from the earth, but will come from heaven back to the earth at that time.

The great multitude that follows in Rev.7:9-17, are all those on earth who have not received Jesus as Lord, after the Church has been caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky [1 Thes.4:16-17]. But is Jesus assurance, of the millions who will be saved during the tribulation, through the efforts of the 144,000 evangelists. But they pay for it at that time with their lives as seen in the actual chronological order of events, beginning with the first resurrection, from Rev.20:4-6.

In His love,

Quasar

 

[Quasar]

The Post Trib theory -

Hi guys,

There are those of you who believe in a post trib rapture which you may better be able to determine from what the Scriptures reveal for you as follows.

1. Jesus said, He has two sheep folds, the one He was ministering to, [Israel], and the other one whom He said He must bring also [His Church]. He prophecied they will become one fold with one Shepherd. Jn.10:16. Be aware also, there are TWO ELECTS involved, not just one. For Israel, Isa.42:1 and 45:4 and for His Church, Rom.8:33 and Col.3:12.

He said in another place, some who are first will be last [Israel], and some who are last will be first [His Church]. Mt.19:30. Israel, who rejected Him as their Messiah and His Church who believed/received Him.

2. Jesus made it clear His ministry was only to the Lost sheep of Israel, in Mt.10:5-6 and in 15:24. Therefore, His ministry in Mt.24 [26-31], Mk.13 [22-27], Lk.21 [23-28] was all directed to Israel, not to His Church which did not exist until ten days after He had ascended into heaven [Acts 1:9], at Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3. Nor does it mean Jesus teachings are not for His Church, because they are. However, much of His teachings had to do with Israel only, as is the case above, and has nothing at all to do with His Church.

Please note also, not only do all the nations see Him at His second coming to the earth, but they also mourn when they do. Is that what you are going to do when Jesus appears to you? It will be the most joyous moment of my life, when and if it happens to me, and I will rejoice as never before. [Mt.24:30].

None of the passages of Scripture in Mt., Mk., or Lk., reveal His Church caught up to meet Him in the clouds of the sky. When this prophecy takes place, as seen in Zech.14:4-5, Jude 14 and in Rev.19:14, Jesus is returning from heaven WITH HIS CHURCH, whom He caught up to be with Him, in Jn.14:2-4 with vs 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17. Immediately preceding the Antichrist being revealed, who triggers the 70th and final week of seven years God decreed upon Israel. Identified in Dan.9:27 as the "he" who "confirms a covenant" with Israel, and the very same person Paul reveals in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and again in vss 7-8. In both passages, he precedes and triggers the tribulation.

3. Therefore, As Paul wrote in 1 Thes.4:15, "According to the Lord's own word...," in his statement about the rapture of the Church [vss 14-18] the Scriptures clearly reveal there will be a PRE-TRIB rapture of the Church in accordance with the promise of Jesus Himself, as posted above. The Scriptures do not teach either a pre-wrath or a post-trib rapture. Would you consider calling a post trib position to be a rapture of any kind? I certainly wouldn't, after going through those horrible judgements.

4. Consider this: When all of us who die physically, the Scriptures teach us we go to be with the Lord immediately, as in 2 Cor.5:6-8 and Phil.1:21-23, which confirm Ecc.12:7. Please tell me why any of you would actually believe the Lord would leave any of us who belong to Him, to suffer the wrath in the tribulation, after bringing all of us to be with Him after we have died? Especially when the Scriptures tell us we won't, in 1 Thes.1:10 and 5:9!

5. We have seen the Church departed to meet Jesus in the clouds of the sky [Symbolically represented by the apostle John, in Rev.4:1-2], before the Antichrist is revealed, who was identified as the one who triggers the 70th and final week of God's decree upon Israel [Dan.9:27], the seven years of tribulation. Which makes the timing of the rapture of the Church abundantly clear, a PRE-TRIB event.

6. While in heaven during the tribulation, the Bride [Church] is ready for the wedding to the Lamb [Jesus] in Rev.19:7-8. After that, Jesus will return with His armies from heaven following Him, riding on white horses and dressed in white linen, white and clean [Which stands for the righteous acts of the saints, Rev.19:8, NIV], IN HIS SECOND COMING TO THE EARTH, as in Zech.14:4-5. Quite a different scenario from that of 1 Thes.4:15-17, right?

It is at this point Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 that the two sheep folds will be one, with one Shepherd takes place, when Israel recognizes Him as their Messiah, in Zech.12:10.

7. With that having been said, when the first resurrection takes place, as previously depicted in the PARENTHETIC in Rev.7:9-17, they will consist of all those who will be saved out of the tribulation, most of who will be martyrs. This has nothing at all to do with anyone who belongs to the raptured Church. Jesus took us 'out of the way' before the trib began. [2 Thes.2:7-8].


I rest my case.

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Vic C.]

1.Jesus said, He has two sheep folds, the one He was ministering to, [Israel], and the other one whom He said He must bring also [His Church]. He prophecied they will become one fold with one Shepherd. Jn.10:16. Be aware also, there are TWO ELECTS involved, not just one. For Israel, Isa.42:1 and 45:4 and for His Church, Rom.8:33 and Col.3:12.

Jesus never says we will become one fold. He teaches we will become one FLOCK. One Elect, two folds; one of them will be Davidic in nature, united as one flock. David will be over the OT saints, with Jesus as his Head, of course.

Immediately preceding the Antichrist being revealed, who triggers the 70th and final week of seven years God decreed upon Israel. Identified in Dan.9:27 as the "he" who "confirms a covenant" with Israel, and the very same person Paul reveals in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and again in vss 7-8. In both passages, he precedes and triggers the tribulation.

Scripture Clearly teaches that Antichrist will be revealed midpoint of the week, not at the beginning of the week.

3. Therefore, As Paul wrote in 1 Thes.4:15, "According to the Lord's own word...," in his statement about the rapture of the Church [vss 14-18] the Scriptures clearly reveal there will be a PRE-TRIB rapture of the Church in accordance with the promise of Jesus Himself, as posted above. The Scriptures do not teach either a pre-wrath or a post-trib rapture

.
I disagree and urge people to study this for themselves. As long as one continues to see the Tribulation as one big seven year event, most teachings after that fall apart. I did mention to you I was a Pre-Trib believer for years, until I actually started comparing Scripture for Scripture and let a literal interpretation dictate context wherever and whenever possible.

Please tell me why any of you would actually believe the Lord would leave any of us who belong to Him, to suffer the wrath in the tribulation.

I don’t believe we will have to suffer through God’s Wrath; we have His promise:

1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This doesn’t negate the fact that nowhere in the Bible are we promised an escape from the Tribulation, except for those who fit the Church of Philadelphia description.

5. We have seen the Church departed to meet Jesus in the clouds of the sky [Symbolically represented by the apostle John, in Rev.4:1-2]

Symbolically is speculating. A literal reading indicates that it was John who was called up.

6. While in heaven during the tribulation, the Bride [Church] is ready for the wedding to the Lamb [Jesus] in Rev.19:7-8.

The Bride is “Israelâ€Â; the Church is The Body. If Matthew 24 and 25 aren’t about the church, how can we be the Bride? If the Church isn’t mentioned in the OT, how do we explain away the references to the Bride in the OT?

 

[Quasar]

Quote by Vic:

>>>Jesus never says we will become one fold. He teaches we will become one FLOCK. One Elect, two folds; one of them will be Davidic in nature, united as one flock. David will be over the OT saints, with Jesus as his Head, of course.<<<


Jesus said in Jn.10:16: "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one Shepherd." NIV. Show me the support for your allegations.


Quote by Vic:

>>>Scripture Clearly teaches that Antichrist will be revealed midpoint of the week, not at the beginning of the week.<<<


The Antichrist is present during the entire seven years of the tribulation [Until Christ throws him into the lake of fire in Rev.19:20], and is the "he" in Dan.9:27, who 'confirms' a 'covenant' with 'the many' [majority] of Israel [As is the case with our own Congress], that begins the final 70th week [7 years] God decreed upon the disposition of Israel in this age. The Antichrist is the one world leader, who must first be revealed, before the tribulation can begin. As seen in the very first of the four horseman, on the white horse, of the Apocalypse in Rev.6:2. The apostle Paul confirms Daniel's prophecy in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and in vs.7-8 7-8, he is revealed immediately following the departure of the Church, to be with the Lord in the Clouds of the sky, as recorded in 1 Thes.4:15-17. Show me the support for your claim.


Quote by Vic:

>>>I disagree and urge people to study this for themselves. As long as one continues to see the Tribulation as one big seven year event, most teachings after that fall apart. I did mention to you I was a Pre-Trib believer for years, until I actually started comparing Scripture for Scripture and let a literal interpretation dictate context wherever and whenever possible.<<<


Yes, I agree! By all means study the Scriptures where they will always find the facts and the truth, in which they clearly teach the tribulation is seven years, as is prophecied in Dan.9:27, where the one week referred to is seven years. In Rev.11:3, "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophecy A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND THREESCORE DAYS, clothed in sackcloth," until the Antichrist kills them in vs 7. And in Rev.13:5, "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and power was given unto him TO CONTINUE FOR FORTY AND TWO MONTHS." KJV. These two passages, Rev.11:11:3, referring to the first three and a half years of the tribulation and Rev.13:5, representing the final three and a half years, for the SEVEN YEAR TOTAL OF THE TRIBULATION. Show me the support for your claims.


Quote by Vic:

I don’t believe we will have to suffer through God’s Wrath; we have His promise:

1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This doesn’t negate the fact that nowhere in the Bible are we promised an escape from the Tribulation, except for those who fit the Church of Philadelphia description.<<<


That is not what the apostle Paul means at all, in 1 Thes.5:9! See 1 Thes 1:10, which makes it abundantly clear, Jesus saves everyone who is still alive here on the earth when He returns to catch us up to meet Him in the clouds of the sky, where He will take us with Him, to be with both He and our Father in heaven [Jn.14:28 and 1 Thes.4:15-17]. "And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead - Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come" [1 Thes.1:10].


Quote by Vic:

>>>The Bride is “Israelâ€Â; the Church is The Body. If Matthew 24 and 25 aren’t about the church, how can we be the Bride? If the Church isn’t mentioned in the OT, how do we explain away the references to the Bride in the OT?<<<


God, the Father refers to Israel as His adulterous wife in Jer.3:1, please explain why, in Jesus own Revelation He would have any explanation that places Israel in heaven, when they are going through the tribulation in the context of Rev.19:7-8? When Israel finally recognizes their Messiah, they then become reconciled to God, the Father. The KJV has erred in calling the the Bride, "...His wife hath made herself ready." A bride is never called a wife until she is married! The NASB and the NIV both use the term 'Bride.'

The Bible Dictionary has this to say about the Bride of the Lamb in Rev.19:7-8:

"The marriageof the Lamb [lit. "the marriage supper of the Lamb"] is the consumation of the marriage of christ and His Church as His Bride." There is much more but that is sufficient evidence to support the biblical facts.

Israel was at one time the bride of the Father, in the OT, which is more on the order of the two ELECTS I have alluded to in previous posts, as in Isa.42:1 and 45:4, for Israel and Rom>8:33 and Col.3:12 for the Church, plus other places.


In His love,

Quasar