Questioning the Rapture

[I Reckon Sow]

So reznwerks
Wanna know how you can be saved?

 

[I Reckon Sow]

Or do ya wanna know why there will be no rapture

1 COR. 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Everyone ive ever heard agrees that the above scripture points out the time of the first resurrection, when the dead shall be raised.

REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Here again we see the first resurrection. THIS SCRIPTURE SAYS THAT! What we find here are peoples who did not take the mark of the beast PRIOR to the first resurrection. The same resurrection spoken of in 1Cor.15. So if those who are in the 1st resurrection had confronted the “beast†youve got to know that they went through the tribulation period. Right REZ ole boy?

 

[I Reckon Sow]

WHERES COLUMBO WHEN YA NEED HIM

The mystery

1COR.15[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

REV.10 [5] And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,[6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:[7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

If you want to know if the people of GOD will go through the so called tribulation just read about the six angels that come before the 7th. The voice of the 7th angel in which the mystery of GOD will be finished. The same mystery spoken of in 1COR.15 verse 51

 

[I Reckon Sow]

So Rez,
Cant wait to here your answers. Please dont make them jack van impyish. Please dont disappoint me. What were you saying about the 144,000?

 

[reznwerks]

bible

Where in God's Creation did you get that only 144,00 will be saved? The "rapture" as you say, doesn't "talk" about anything of the sort. The "rapture" "talks" about nothing. The "Rapture" as many people understand it. isn't even in the Bible. :-?

This isn't speaking about the rapture? This isn't in the bible?
14:1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseact ... seID/30928

 

[reznwerks]

[

The reason i do this is because theres nothing in the new that is not in the old. Why look forward to something thats not (as the raturist claim) written in the prophets. I aint kiddin. The rapturist say theres nothing written about the rapture in the book of the prophets. They really says this.
Well if that is why you do then you should be honest with yourself. Pulling out passages to make point or a claim when the passages are talking about something entirely different is not honest.

Whats the WORD of GOD say?

AMOS 3 [6] Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?[7] Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
That particualar city is being spoken of and nothing more.

Yeah, in a way the rapturist are right. There is nothing about the rapture revealed in the book of the prophets.

In case your wondering. The Psalms is all about Jesus. PRAISE BE THE LORD!
Exactly , then how do you twist it in to being something of an omen to the rapture?

Isaiah- About His coming
No it's not. Read the whole book. There is nothing in Isaiah that portends any info of a child to be born in the future. Any prophecies that you were taught were in here "WERE MADE" to look like prophecies at a later date. At the time of the existance of Isaiah and BEFORE the N/T these words in Isaiah were not considered prophecies. If you read Isaiah some of the prohecies are clearly resolved in later passages.

PS- Im only called, not choosen

 

[reznwerks]

Re: WHERES COLUMBO WHEN YA NEED HIM

The mystery

1COR.15[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
This is talking about the basic character of man and not any warning of impending doom.Read the whole verse. It's about mans struggle with himself.Paul knows it is futile to be perfect but says the efforts are not in vain. Secondly Paul was never a prophet and ALL prophecies have a few words behind them stating they are propheies like "THUS SAYETH THE LORD". If you don't find something like this before what you claim is a prophecy then it's not a prophecy.

REV.10 [5] And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,[6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:[7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

If you want to know if the people of GOD will go through the so called tribulation just read about the six angels that come before the 7th. The voice of the 7th angel in which the mystery of GOD will be finished. The same mystery spoken of in 1COR.15 verse 51
COR 15 is not about the rapture and revelation was written by an old man exiled on an island for years under who knows what kind of condition.

 

[reznwerks]

dead

Or do ya wanna know why there will be no rapture.
I already know why there will be no rapture.


Everyone ive ever heard agrees that the above scripture points out the time of the first resurrection, when the dead shall be raised.
The dead will be raised from where? Are you talking about a now dead body? If so how do you reconcile the fact that many bodies of christians are no longer in one piece or one place? So what is going to be raised?

REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Why a thousand years? Why not ten thousand years? Why would a creator of the universe concern himself with imparting propecies like that? Why play games with his underlings?Why does Jesus need to REIGN? If we are all going to be changed in a twinkling then we should all be of like mind. To REIGN means to keep order and if that is needed that means we will have free will to dissent, object and get into trouble. As I see it nothings changed.

Here again we see the first resurrection. THIS SCRIPTURE SAYS THAT! What we find here are peoples who did not take the mark of the beast PRIOR to the first resurrection. The same resurrection spoken of in 1Cor.15. So if those who are in the 1st resurrection had confronted the “beast†youve got to know that they went through the tribulation period. Right REZ ole boy?
COR was written by Paul and he was no prophet and never even met Jesus. Paul may have been present at the stoning of Stephen and may have even participated. Revelation as I said was written by an old man exiled for years on an island with very little contact with other humans. It's not a stretch to wonder what his state of mind was when he wrote those words.

 

[reznwerks]

144000

So Rez,
Cant wait to here your answers. Please dont make them jack van impyish. Please dont disappoint me. What were you saying about the 144,000?

Just in case you missed my reponse for the 144000 I thought it be prudent to post just for you.

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
hundred Rev 7:4 "

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. Do you reckon you have to rethink your ideas again? As you ponder about REV think about this as well. I can read REV in just about a half hour or less. This is not much more than a length of a dream. How much credibility do you want to give it?

 

[I Reckon Sow]

Good morning reznwerks
Happy dads day to ya. About your answers. You gave none. You only gave your opinions and those you not even once back up with facts or scripture. Aint america great. You can say what ever you like, whether it be wrong or right. Well Rez have a good day and if you decide to answer my posts about the non rapture, i sure would like to hear them.

 

[I Reckon Sow]

which were redeemed from the earth.

So reznwerks. Why would youy bold this as if it were some great revelation to you? Your not trying to say redeemed means raptured are you? Impe wouldnt even make that stretch.

 

[I Reckon Sow]

You know what reznwerks, i dont want to continue our discussion here. I think i may have gone off topic a bit and dont want to disrupt the original question to this thread. Lets take this outside.

 

[reznwerks]

rapture

You know what reznwerks, i dont want to continue our discussion here. I think i may have gone off topic a bit and dont want to disrupt the original question to this thread. Lets take this outside.

I think if you go back to the original question for this subject I answered it quite nicely on the previous page and the reasons for it.

 

[Vic C.]

Re: bible

This isn't speaking about the rapture? This isn't in the bible?
14:1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseact ... seID/30928

No, this isn't speaking of a "rapture". Did you even read the commentary on the link you gave us? Do you know who these 144,00 are, what God's reason was for sealing them, what their purpose is and where they will be reining with Christ?

I'll give you a hint:

Revelation 14:1-2

Although it does not specifically say so, the wording strongly indicates that the voice mentioned here is that of the Father speaking at another pivotal time in world history: the day His Firstborn stands upon Mount Zion to meet His newly born brothers and sisters. At the time this voice from heaven is heard, Jesus Christâ€â€the Word of God and the Lord or Yahweh of the Old Testamentâ€â€is on earth on Mount Zion.

Catch that? Mt. Zion os on Earth, not in Heaven. They were sealed for their protection from God's Whath during the Day of the Lord. Their purpose is to aid in converting and... judging.

 

[reznwerks]

Re: bible

This isn't speaking about the rapture? This isn't in the bible?
14:1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseact ... seID/30928

No, this isn't speaking of a "rapture". Did you even read the commentary on the link you gave us? Do you know who these 144,00 are, what God's reason was for sealing them, what their purpose is and where they will be reining with Christ?

I'll give you a hint:

Revelation 14:1-2

Although it does not specifically say so, the wording strongly indicates that the voice mentioned here is that of the Father speaking at another pivotal time in world history: the day His Firstborn stands upon Mount Zion to meet His newly born brothers and sisters. At the time this voice from heaven is heard, Jesus Christâ€â€the Word of God and the Lord or Yahweh of the Old Testamentâ€â€is on earth on Mount Zion.

Catch that? Mt. Zion os on Earth, not in Heaven. They were sealed for their protection from God's Whath during the Day of the Lord. Their purpose is to aid in converting and... judging.

It doesn't matter "where". The point is that 144000 would be singled out to escape the tribulation.

 

[Drew]

The thing is, it does not matter what you think, if you have not the Holy Ghost, you can't know the truth. So we expect those kinds of statements from the unsaved. I am not trying to be mean here, but if you don't believe there is nothing we can do about it. The thing is that, Jesus knows that you doubt His Word. But let me tell you this one day you will believe. And what do you mean by the American obsession with the Second Coming of Christ ? A true Christian is going to go by the Word of God, and if the Bible says that Jesus is coming again. Then Jesus is coming again.
The Bible has not been proven wrong yet. You guy's just take and twist things in the Word of God, with your secular mind set. Then try to push it off on us Christians, but it won't work. The reason that I am talking this way, is because I get tired of people putting down the Word of God. As I said in another post, that is all that some people come here to do. And that last statement is for who ever it pertains to. And we are going to crack down on a lot of this obsessive putting down of Christianity. Because first of all this is a Christian board, not secular. When people join this board you they agree with the Rules and Statement Of Faith. But as soon as they get on the board, and look around a little bit, they start putting down Christ and His Word. Like I said a crack down is in order.

This is one of the silliest posts I have ever read on these forums - which is saying a lot considering the shameless abandonment of intellectual rigour that abounds.

No serious person argues their point by simply declaring the "opponent" to be unsaved. To brashly declare that NT Wright, a highly respected Christian teacher and writer, is unsaved, is laughable. And if I read one more post that simply rails against the opponents as heretics who need to be "cracked down on", while utterly failing to address the actual question at issue, well....so help me.....I'll eat my young!

On a more sober note, this kind of post is the reason why elements of the church are not taken seriously by the world. One needs to actually discuss the issue - an overwrought lathering of "thou heretic" insults, in the absence of actual content, rings rather hollow.

And, as if I need to point this out, the quote from Wright never declared that Jesus is not coming again as the above post strongly suggests.

 

[JM]

I think what Lewis is saying, if I may be so bold, that an unsaved person is still hostile to God and can't reason well. :D

 

[Vic C.]

Re: bible

It doesn't matter "where". The point is that 144000 would be singled out to escape the tribulation.

Right... and not just the Tribulation; the Wrath of God also.

Sure it matters where. Your original contention was that they are "raptured". They aren't. They are sealed for their protection and remain on earth.

 

[reznwerks]

Re: bible

It doesn't matter "where". The point is that 144000 would be singled out to escape the tribulation.

Right... and not just the Tribulation; the Wrath of God also.

Sure it matters where. Your original contention was that they are "raptured". They aren't. They are sealed for their protection and remain on earth.

Sorry but redeemed can mean taken up in the air. Not that it really matters. What matters is that only 144000 would be counted to escape the tribulation or "Wrath of God". The point being you guys seem to have an ego big enough to think you will be in that number.

 

[Drew]

The following quote was made in reference to something written by British theologian NT Wright (who questions the idea that believers will be "taken up into the air).

The thing is, it does not matter what you think, if you have not the Holy Ghost, you can't know the truth. So we expect those kinds of statements from the unsaved.

The author of the above quote obviously thinks NT Wright is unsaved. Here are some other views about NT Wright:

J.I. Packer, professor of theology, Regent College
"Brilliant Bishop Wright is one of God’s best gifts to our decaying Western church..."

Walter Brueggemann
"Readers will welcome such ready access to one of the fine teachers of the church."

Dallas Willard, professor of philosophy, University of Southern California, and author of The Divine Conspiracy
"N.T. Wright is uniquely qualified to convey the enduring substance of Christian life and thought to contemporary people."

Will Willimon, Bishop, North Alabama Conference, United Methodist Church
"Simply Christian is an amazing testimony to the vitality [...] of the Christian faith-and to the skill of Tom Wright."

John Ortberg, teaching pastor, Menlo Park Presbyterian Church
"[No one] has done more to clarify what [...] Christianity looks like in our day than Tom Wright."