Questions Concerning Messianic Judaism

[Ryan]

HI there, Ryan.

If I may ask, what do you make of Luke 22, where the Lord Jesus gathers with his disciples for what is at first called the passover ('before I suffer'), but then institutes the Lord's Supper, which, when His followers would be observing it, would be looking back instead at Him in His death, a finished work (Hebrews 9 and 10)?

(If this is not too long a question.)

I won't debate it here, but look at this and it's similar to my views. http://familybible.org/beitmidrash/FAQ/Communion.htm

Or if you don't know the itinerary for Passover, look at this
http://www.chosenpeople.com/main/holidays-and-festivals/190-the-meaning-of-passover

 

[farouk]

I won't debate it here, but look at this and it's similar to my views. http://familybible.org/beitmidrash/FAQ/Communion.htm

Or if you don't know the itinerary for Passover, look at this
http://www.chosenpeople.com/main/holidays-and-festivals/190-the-meaning-of-passover

Thank-you for the response.

The first article says that the Lord's Supper was only intended for believers from a Gentile background.

This is not Biblical.

For a start, the disciples present at the institution of the Lord's Supper were themselves from a Jewish background. Don't believers from a Jewish background today equally depend on the finished work to which they, as do also believers from a Gentile background, look back now to a finished work at the Cross, instead of forward to a yet unfulfilled work?

The second article invites participation in the Passover, to which ceremonial cleanness is advocated. I thought that the New Testament taught that the ceremonial aspect has been fulfilled in Christ? 1 Corinthians 5.7

 

[Ryan]

Thank-you for the response.

The first article says that the Lord's Supper was only intended for believers from a Gentile background.

This is not Biblical.

For a start, the disciples present at the institution of the Lord's Supper were themselves from a Jewish background. Don't believers from a Jewish background today equally depend on the finished work to which they, as do also believers from a Gentile background, look back now to a finished work at the Cross, instead of forward to a yet unfulfilled work?

The second article invites participation in the Passover, to which ceremonial cleanness is advocated. I thought that the New Testament taught that the ceremonial aspect has been fulfilled in Christ? 1 Corinthians 5.7

Like I said, I'm not gonna debate with you about this here, in this thread. OP just wanted info on Messianic stuff, he will get what he asked for from a believer who follows Messianic teachings.

 

[farouk]

Like I said, I'm not gonna debate with you about this here, in this thread. OP just wanted info on Messianic stuff, he will get what he asked for from a believer who follows Messianic teachings.

Okay I won't debate; just understand that, without rancor, plain statements from Scripture are likely to be offered on a Christian site.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I believe the family who used to host a girl's Bible study that I attended a few years ago, they were Messianic Jews. I remember they observed Passover, and believed in OT law. I didn't realize this at the time and a comment I made that related to not following OT law was quickly denounced. I didn't want to argue with my study leader, obviously.
The group disbanded after they moved away.

Nice people. Even though I didn't agree on everything, I learned a lot from them. Certainly Spirit-filled individuals.

 

[farouk]

questdriven: Interesting; in the Acts of the Apostles there are accounts of how those from a Jewish background variously handled the issue of circumcision and law-keeping.

Blessings.

 

[JLB]

I had class with a Messianic Jew, and He never once would let you Forget that was a Jew! He was a Christian, but He referred to me and all others as "you people". It did not matter what we were discussing his point was always superior to "us people" We had a potluck after class one day and He walked around telling all the Ladies that they made good food, but the Jewish women could do better. " you people can cook, but our Jewish women can REALLY cook." is the exact way He said it.

It was laughable most of the time, but He was dead serious about His superiority. He was CHOSEN, we were just drug along for the ride.

That is the only experience i have had with A messianic Jew, And I will NOT forget it!

When ever I hear a Jew start on that rant, I just ask a simple question - Wasn't Abraham a Gentile?

That usually makes for an interesting turn in the conversation.


JLB

 

[Ryan]

Nice people. Even though I didn't agree on everything, I learned a lot from them. Certainly Spirit-filled individuals.

Who woulda thunk? Thank you that made my day.:amen

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Thanks Ryan for the info.
But with sharing these things, you should expect to answer scriptual questions.
It doesn't have to be a debate, just clarification.

 

[Ryan]

Thanks Ryan for the info.
But with sharing these things, you should expect to answer scriptual questions.
It doesn't have to be a debate, just clarification.

I have no problem answering scriptural questions with scripture. I just didn't feel like engaging in banter with Farouk because we are at opposition with the relevance and observance of the Law/Torah in a believers life. I am not gonna change his mind anytime soon and vice versa. Especially when asking questions in the form of a statement.

If I may ask, what do you make of Luke 22, where the Lord Jesus gathers with his disciples for what is at first called the passover ('before I suffer'), but then institutes the Lord's Supper, which, when His followers would be observing it, would be looking back instead at Him in His death, a finished work (Hebrews 9 and 10)?

(If this is not too long a question.)

He has already made a statement that Luke 22 has taken care of Passover and has been replaced with the Lord's Supper. Of which is followed up with this...

The second article invites participation in the Passover, to which ceremonial cleanness is advocated. I thought that the New Testament taught that the ceremonial aspect has been fulfilled in Christ? 1 Corinthians 5.7

But Farouk also didn't include verse 8 so let's look at it completely.

1 Corinthians 5:6-8 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? 7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

It states very plainly to the celebration of Passover as the completed work of the Messiah. But let's look at the beginning of the bible and see what Leviticus says about Passover.

Leviticus 23:4-5 These are the appointed times of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them. In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the Lord’s Passover.

So we know Jesus was keeping this Feast. But did you notice it says "times of The Lord?" It doesn't say the Israel's, or the Jewish time, this is a divine appointment that The Lord has instituted. The Lord is saying on these such and such dates, I have made appointments with you to meet with me. It's an annual invitation to be welcomed into the Lord's presence.

"Holy convocation" has more meaning to this then what the English provides. Convocation in Hebrew is "miqra"and it means to assemble, rehearsal, public meetings. 1500 years leading to Christ, Passover was rehearsed over and over every year. It was like a wedding rehearsal practicing for the real thing. We know Jesus fulfilled the Spring Feasts. But did he ever say to stop observing it?

Luke 22:19 And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.

What Jesus was saying here and what to observe during the Passover Seder is the symbolism to remember for each subsequent Passover Seder. It wasn't a big ol lump of sourdough bread they were eating. It was matzah bread they were eating. Characteristics of matzah bread is it has no yeast (representing sin, or lack thereof), it is striped (representing the scourging and the torture Jesus suffered), and it's pierced (representing the holes in his body nailed to the cross).

So what was to be a rehearsal, is now a memorial to remember.

"Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."

Paul clearly instructs observance of the Passover feast, not the replacement to something else. Just because he fulfilled it, doesn't mean it was to be forgotten. We are called to walk as he did. Was there anything Jesus did which we should not do? Jesus absolutely observed the Lord's appointed times perfectly, so why shouldn't we try as we'll with him being our example to follow?

Here is a link to Passover explained on YouTube. It is very in depth, but very enriching in order to understand Passover and how Jesus observed it and fulfilled it.

[video=youtube;zWY2QNxF-0Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWY2QNxF-0Y[/video]

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Ryan, I believe I understand what you are saying, but it still needs clarification.
For the sake of everyone, please lovingly answer this question:
Do you keep the passover as a remembrance of what Jesus has done for us or do you keep it because you feel a need to obey the law of Moses?

 

[Ryan]

It is one and the same.

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

Interesting thing I just noticed, is all these NT passages speak to God and the Father's commandments. Nowhere does it say Jesus's commandments. That's because they were one and the same. So why do I obey (sometimes not as well as i should) and observe the Torah as best as I can? It's because I love him man. Plain and simple. No need to complicate it anymore then that.

If you look at things like the Sabbath and the Feasts as looking at your own dad. Hopefully you love your dad and he loves you. There are probably things he loves and it pleases him when you give him a gift whatever that may be. So it's his birthday and you never bought him a gift. Does he love you any less? No of course not, you're his son. But is he pleased if you had bought him that present you know that he likes? You betcha. That's how I view it as me observing the Sabbath, Feasts, what have you is an act that he prescribed that is pleasing to the Father. Living out your love to the Father is an act of obedience. I obey because I am saved, not to be saved.

 

[farouk]

... But did you notice it says "times of The Lord?" It doesn't say the Israel's, or the Jewish time, this is a divine appointment that The Lord has instituted. The Lord is saying on these such and such dates, I have made appointments with you to meet with me. It's an annual invitation to be welcomed into the Lord's presence.

..

Ryan: Ty for your comments. My polite musing would be that if it is being implied that the passover was instituted in the Old Testament for the church as a distinct entity for Israel, then I don't see the church in the Old Testament.

But if it is being implied that that there is no difference between the church and Israel, then I don't understand how this is held while groups calling themselves Messianic keep meeting to observe Old Testament practices rather than New Testament ones, separately from Christians who practise New Testament ones.

 

[P31Woman]

From my understanding Messianic Judaism is a form of Christianity that believes in Jesus Christ as the Messiah, but strictly following Jewish law and commandment?

How widespread is it? Also what do they call their house of worship? A church? Synagogue? Temple?

What are their typical practices compared to Christianity?

I have never had one admit to me Jesus is God.

Also never knew one who was a real jew. They pretended to be jews if you ask me.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I have never had one admit to me Jesus is God.

Also never knew one who was a real jew. They pretended to be jews if you ask me.

Hi, I keep mentioning in threads about Jews for Jesus. They have been around for a long time and worship Jesus as God.

 

[P31Woman]

Hi, I keep mentioning in threads about Jews for Jesus. They have been around for a long time and worship Jesus as God.

I agree. ;)

 

[Ryan]

Ryan: Ty for your comments. My polite musing would be that if it is being implied that the passover was instituted in the Old Testament for the church as a distinct entity for Israel, then I don't see the church in the Old Testament.

But if it is being implied that that there is no difference between the church and Israel, then I don't understand how this is held while groups calling themselves Messianic keep meeting to observe Old Testament practices rather than New Testament ones, separately from Christians who practise New Testament ones.

There was always a "church" before Christ. Ekklesia is the equivalent of the Hebrew "qahal" which means a "called out congregation or assembly." Stephen, a Jewish believer, was reliant on the Septuagint, and the use of the word "ekklesia" was used interchangeably with "qahal." What was used as "qahal" in Exodus, Stephen is using "ekklesia" in Acts 7 using Israel as the "called out ones" or "the church."

Acts 7:38 This is the one who was in the congregation (ekklesia) in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living oracles to pass on to you.

Short answer to a question that requires a longer answer, is yes, the church is believing Israel, and believing Israel is the church. There is only one body, and that is in Christ.

Col 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:12 That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made near by the blood of Christ.

But what about Matthew 16 when Jesus talked about building his church?

Mt 16:18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

The Hebrew language uses a word, sometimes translated "to build" but can also be rendered "to rebuild."

The church has existed since the beginning of what was called Israel. The scriptures teaches everywhere Israel would be “rebuilt†or “restored.†Ezekiel 37 is a good starter. The whole point of the New Covenant is to restore Israel back into covenant with God. Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8. The bible is wrought of restoring Israel back into relationship with the Father through faith in his son Jesus. There is no separate covenants for two separate parties. If there was a major shift in a new entity as the "church" apart from Israel, and an establishment of new rules and new covenants for this distinct group, then what does Amos 3 say about that?

Amos 3:7 Surely the Sovereign LORD (Yahweh) does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.

Such a major shift in a plan B, would have clearly been revealed prior to Jesus. And of which, there is no scriptural evidence to support this idea.

 

[farouk]

There was always a "church" before Christ. Ekklesia is the equivalent of the Hebrew "qahal" which means a "called out congregation or assembly." Stephen, a Jewish believer, was reliant on the Septuagint, and the use of the word "ekklesia" was used interchangeably with "qahal." What was used as "qahal" in Exodus, Stephen is using "ekklesia" in Acts 7 using Israel as the "called out ones" or "the church."

Acts 7:38 This is the one who was in the congregation (ekklesia) in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living oracles to pass on to you.

Short answer to a question that requires a longer answer, is yes, the church is believing Israel, and believing Israel is the church. There is only one body, and that is in Christ.

Col 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:12 That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made near by the blood of Christ.

But what about Matthew 16 when Jesus talked about building his church?

Mt 16:18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

The Hebrew language uses a word, sometimes translated "to build" but can also be rendered "to rebuild."

The church has existed since the beginning of what was called Israel. The scriptures teaches everywhere Israel would be “rebuilt” or “restored.” Ezekiel 37 is a good starter. The whole point of the New Covenant is to restore Israel back into covenant with God. Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8. The bible is wrought of restoring Israel back into relationship with the Father through faith in his son Jesus. There is no separate covenants for two separate parties. If there was a major shift in a new entity as the "church" apart from Israel, and an establishment of new rules and new covenants for this distinct group, then what does Amos 3 say about that?

Amos 3:7 Surely the Sovereign LORD (Yahweh) does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.

Such a major shift in a plan B, would have clearly been revealed prior to Jesus. And of which, there is no scriptural evidence to support this idea.

Ryan:

Sorry, we are dispensationally on such different different lines of thought that it would be multiplying words to keep going over the same ground, I guess. The church began in Acts 2, composed of believers in the Lord Jesus from Jewish and Gentile backgrounds, when the Holy Spirit came to dwell permanently with them.

Blessings.

 

[Ryan]

Acts 2 has no basis for the movement or beginning of a new church. One has to juxtapose using the scriptures and man made doctrine to support such an idea. Dispensationalism is not rooted in scripture. Sorry.

 

[Ryan]

Ryan:

Sorry, we are dispensationally on such different different lines of thought that it would be multiplying words to keep going over the same ground, I guess. The church began in Acts 2, composed of believers in the Lord Jesus from Jewish and Gentile backgrounds, when the Holy Spirit came to dwell permanently with them.

Blessings.

There were always gentile believers welcomed into the commonwealth of Israel.

Ruth 1:16 But Ruth said, “Do not urge me to leave you or turn back from following you; for where you go, I will go, and where you lodge, I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God, my God.

Joshua 6:25 However, Rahab the harlot and her father’s household and all she had, Joshua spared; and she has lived in the midst of Israel to this day, for she hid the messengers whom Joshua sent to spy out Jericho.

She is even in the genealogy of Jesus, a Gentile, but heir according to promise as it was always was.

Matthew 1:5 Salmon was the father of Boaz by Rahab, Boaz was the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse.

Why create something new?