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Questions for Catholics and Protestants

P

Patrick

Guest
Here is something I have been wondering about: the controversy around salvation. Catholics tell me that it is faith and works together (by grace) that bring about our salvation. Most Protestants have told me that salvation is by faith alone - yet that will directly result in good works. If one didn't have good works, then, presumably, there isn't a true faith either. So it seems like faith and works both exist together. My question is, what is the real difference? (I'm not advocating either position, just trying to understand.)

Thanks! :D
 
Eternal security. Evangelical protestants put forth that once you are saved, you cannot be condemned. Catholics put forth that once you begin following after Christ and become christian, that you can indeed turn away and not go to heaven. Faith and works do indeed go together. Evangelicals create a false dichotomy between faith and works. Often you will hear the either/or arguement out of that camp. Catholics say its a both/and relationship between faith and works. One exists with the other. You do acts in faith and yet without acts, there is no evidence of faith, and therefore no faith.
 
Patrick,

You have to find the answers by yourself by reading the New Testament thoroughly. You have to remember that the answer is only one for each questions you may have.

There are millions of opinions and if you are not committed Christian, you will take a pick which one is acceptable and convenient for you, so it really does not matter, if you know what I mean.
 
gingercat said:
Patrick,

You have to find the answers by yourself by reading the New Testament thoroughly. You have to remember that the answer is only one for each questions you may have.

There are millions of opinions and if you are not committed Christian, you will take a pick which one is acceptable and convenient for you, so it really does not matter, if you know what I mean.

I do know what you mean. But that seems to be the problem: I have read the New Testament twice (in two different translations) and it seems like I could pull verses from all places to support whatever opinion I wanted to hold. That's what frustrates me so much! :o
 
Patrick said:
I do know what you mean. But that seems to be the problem: I have read the New Testament twice (in two different translations) and it seems like I could pull verses from all places to support whatever opinion I wanted to hold. That's what frustrates me so much! :o

Patric,

What is main theme of the Bible? When you understand that, you will not be far off.
 
gingercat said:
Patrick said:
I do know what you mean. But that seems to be the problem: I have read the New Testament twice (in two different translations) and it seems like I could pull verses from all places to support whatever opinion I wanted to hold. That's what frustrates me so much! :o

Patric,

What is main theme of the Bible? When you understand that, you will not be far off.

That God is love? And how does that solve the question of salvation?
 
Patrick said:
That God is love? And how does that solve the question of salvation?

Well, Patric. You are quick. You can figure out by yourself the rest by reading and strive to obey everything in the NT. You will understand the basics within a year. After you have confidence in the NT, then you can start OT. Don't forget to change your life according to Jesus and His disciples' teachings. :D Do not cheat!! :wink: You cannot understand it in a day, you know? Be patient. You can also use other resorces to understand instead of rely on other Christians.
 
and if that doesnt work (as would seem to be the case cause you read it a couple times) feel free to ask real questions, and some of us will give you real answers. there is a lot left to be desired in the protestant teaching of a 'spirit-led' based interpretation of the Bible. hence the massive divisions.
 
I'm having a really hard time logging onto this site....I think it took me at least ten tries this time. So I'm not going to return as I can't guarantee I'll even be able to get on. Thanks for everyone's answers. :)
 
belovedwolfofgod said:
Eternal security. Evangelical protestants put forth that once you are saved, you cannot be condemned. Catholics put forth that once you begin following after Christ and become christian, that you can indeed turn away and not go to heaven. Faith and works do indeed go together. Evangelicals create a false dichotomy between faith and works. Often you will hear the either/or arguement out of that camp. Catholics say its a both/and relationship between faith and works. One exists with the other. You do acts in faith and yet without acts, there is no evidence of faith, and therefore no faith.
Interesting, I might add however that you seemed to forget the Arminian point of view on salvation. Protestants such as Methodists, who historically have held an Arminian view of the nature of salvation reject the belief in Eternal security. In fact if one were to make a side by side comparison of the “Five-Points of Calvinism†with the Arminian doctrine they would note the striking differences.

For example:

The fifth point of Calvinism, the P in the acronym “Tulip†goes as follows:
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Perseverance of the saints (or preservation of the saints): Any person who has once been truly saved from damnation must necessarily persevere and cannot later be condemned. The word saints is used in the sense in which it is used in the Bible to refer to all who are set apart by God, not in the technical sense of one who is exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven.
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(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvanism)

As for the Arminian view point there view point goes as follows:
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Eternal security is also conditional: All believers have full assurance of salvation with the condition that they remain in Christ. Salvation is conditioned on faith, therefore perseverance is also conditioned. Apostasy (turning from Christ) is only committed through a deliberate, willful rejection of Jesus and renouncement of belief.
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(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism)

Also the following is not worth:
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Denominations leaning in the Arminian direction include Anglicans, Methodists, General Baptists, Pentecostals, and Charismatics.

….

Denominations leaning in the Calvinist direction include Particular Baptists, Reformed Baptists, Presbyterians, and Congregationalists.
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(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism)

In other words, “Eternal security. Evangelical protestants put forth that once you are saved, you cannot be condemned,†is not entirely correct. So basically, it would probably more accurate to say “Most Evangelical Protestants believe in Eternal security.†Saying that would be more accurate because as Methodists certainly fall into the Evangelical Protestant form of Christianity.
 
Patrick said:
Here is something I have been wondering about: the controversy around salvation. Catholics tell me that it is faith and works together (by grace) that bring about our salvation. Most Protestants have told me that salvation is by faith alone - yet that will directly result in good works. If one didn't have good works, then, presumably, there isn't a true faith either. So it seems like faith and works both exist together. My question is, what is the real difference? (I'm not advocating either position, just trying to understand.)

Thanks! :D

*******
John here: I see it as by faith only. The problem is the understanding of what faith is? God requires a faith that obeys! (works) The condition of salvation is that we develope a mature character safe to save. See Nahum 1:9 We are even given the provisions for this work. Philippians 4:13 & 2 Corinthians 12:9

Regardless of the true knowledge of which way it is, if there is no obedience (surrender of ones will) there is no being Born Again. See Acts 5:32
 
We must understand that, when all is said and done, all that matters is who's side you're on. You decide that. God isn't trying to pull a fast one on anyone. A believer may do something terrible. A non-believer may do something great. But we must remember that all good things are from God and that all evil things are from man and Satan. Was Peter not going to Heaven after he denied Christ three times? No. Because, as Peter responded, Christ knew all things, and he knew that Peter loved him. And so Christ reminded Peter to keep his eyes on the important thing. Jesus simply restated what he said in the beginning. "Follow me!" Salvation depends on Christ taking you out of the salvery of sin. Everything else after that depends of Christ taking the slavery of sin out of you.

The crucible for silver and a furnace for gold, but the Lord tests the heart.
 
Patrick said:
Here is something I have been wondering about: the controversy around salvation. Catholics tell me that it is faith and works together (by grace) that bring about our salvation. Most Protestants have told me that salvation is by faith alone - yet that will directly result in good works. If one didn't have good works, then, presumably, there isn't a true faith either. So it seems like faith and works both exist together. My question is, what is the real difference? (I'm not advocating either position, just trying to understand.)

Thanks! :D

The difference is whom you are trusting in. If you are trusting in yourself to save yourself then you would have to depend on works but if you are trusting in God then you have to depend in grace through faith plus Christ alone plus nothing. You can't trust in your works because your works can't afford the sacrifice alone. Only God can afford the payment. It is sort of like someone offering up a burnt piece of toast to God to pay for His son. There is a price to pay and only God can pay that price so you have to go in faith with what Jesus did or you can't come at all.

John 10:9 I (Jesus) am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

If you try to enter in another way than Jesus then you are a thief and a robber. Some people try to enter in through works or an organization (Jehovah's Witnesses) but if you don't enter in through faith in what Jesus did then you cannot be saved. If you try to enter in through works then you aren't entering in through a relationship with Jesus. You're trying to enter in your own way.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

If you are short then you are short. There is no way to pay for your sins because Jesus had to pay it for you plus you will continue to sin ( 1 John 1:8-9 ) that you will always fall short and will never be able to pay the debt.

The second thing you have to learn is the word 'propitiation' which is in the Bible. Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins. It is Jesus' blood which was sprinkled on the mercy seat where sacrifices were offered to God. You can't offer your own blood to God.
 
CCC 1987 "The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us 'the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ' and through Baptism." (cf.Romans 3:22, Romans 6:3-4)

CCC 1990 "Justification detaches man from sin..."

CCC 1992 "Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered Himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men..."

CCC 2010 "Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions."


...and there's lots more good stuffs in between. :)

and ignore the next few posters who will more than likely scour anti-Catholic websites to post snippets--out of context--from the Catechism to try and make you believe that the Catholic Church teaches something other than grace... what is the purpose of having faith/doing good works/receiving the Sacraments? GRACE. All for grace. Grace saves.
 
CatholicXian said:
CCC 1987 "The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us 'the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ' and through Baptism." (cf.Romans 3:22, Romans 6:3-4)

I wrote several articles and pages and pages on baptism so much that I think I have written a thesis. I think we could open the discussion with a separate debate on baptism but don't do so unless you are prepared to stick around and answer the questions.
 
Sothenes said:
CatholicXian said:
CCC 1987 "The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us 'the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ' and through Baptism." (cf.Romans 3:22, Romans 6:3-4)

I wrote several articles and pages and pages on baptism so much that I think I have written a thesis. I think we could open the discussion with a separate debate on baptism but don't do so unless you are prepared to stick around and answer the questions.
Not today, since it's Mother's Day. ;-)

But next week is fine with me. I'm done with my final exams.
 
CatholicXian said:
Sothenes said:
CatholicXian said:
CCC 1987 "The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us 'the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ' and through Baptism." (cf.Romans 3:22, Romans 6:3-4)

I wrote several articles and pages and pages on baptism so much that I think I have written a thesis. I think we could open the discussion with a separate debate on baptism but don't do so unless you are prepared to stick around and answer the questions.
Not today, since it's Mother's Day. ;-)

But next week is fine with me. I'm done with my final exams.

That is fine but I have dealt with all the verses because it took me years to compile a bibliography of books and months to study the issue.
 
Perseverance of the Saints
This doctrine is clearly taught in these passages, John 10:28,29; Romans 11:29; Phil 1:6; 1 Peter 1:5. It, moreover, follows from a consideration of (1) the immutability of the divine decrees (Jeremiah 31:3; Matthew 24:22-24; Acts 13:48; Romans 8:30); (2) the provisions of the covenant of grace (Jeremiah 32:40; John 10:29; 17:2-6); (3) the atonement and intercession of Christ (Isaiah 53:6,11; Matthew 20:28; 1 Peter 2:24; John 11:42; 17:11,15,20; Romans 8:34); and (4) the indwelling of the Holy Ghost (John 14:16; 2co 1:21,22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:14; 1 John 3:9).

1 Samuel 2:9; Nehemiah 9:16-19; Psalm 31:23, 32:7,23,28-33, 38, 84:5-7, 89:30-33, 94:14, 97:10, 121:7, 125:1; Proverbs 2:8; Isaiah 40:30, 54:4-10; Jeremiah 32:38-42; Matthew 18:6, 12-14, 24:22-24; Luke 1:74, 22:32; John 3:36, 4:13, 5:24, 6:37-40, 51, 8:31, 10:4, 8, 27-29, 17:11, 15; Romans 6:1-4, 7:24-8:4, 28-39, 11:29, 14:14; 1 Corinthians 1:4-9, 3:15, 10:13; 2 Corinthians 1:22, 5:5; Ephesians 1:11-14, 4:30; Philippians 1:6; Colossians 3:1-4; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 3:3-5; 2 Timothy 1:12, 4:18; Hebrews 3:14, 7:25, 10:14, 36-39, 13:5; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 2 Peter 3:8; 1 John 2:19, 3:9, 5:4, 13, 18; Jude 1, 24.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/a ... rance.html

Everything you wanted to know about the "P."

Perseverance of the Saints does not mean "once saved always saved". This corruption of the doctrine has been popular in recent years, but has never been a true representation of the doctrine. "Once saved always saved" is more keenly given the name "Perseverance of the sinner" instead of "the saint". For it teaches that man can be saved by Christ and then sin habitually, do whatever he wants, and then still "persevere to the end". Perseverance of the saints does not teach this. Perseverance of the saints teaches that once God has renewed the heart of a sinner through the application of the redemption wrought by Christ upon the cross, he will continue to be saved and show forth the fruits of that salvation. The sinner perseveres because of Christ, but he continually shows himself as one who has been changed by Christ. God has saved the individual and will sanctify him until the end when he is ultimately glorified, and in heaven. It does not mean man has a license to sin. Those who think they have a license to sin are not changed and saved by grace. They are still in sin. Those who are saved by grace and changed, desire to show forth the fruits of that salvation. God motions the heart to good work, and continues that good work to the end. John 6:37-39, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."Phil. 1:6, "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"1 Thess. 5:23-24, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it."2 Tim. 4:18, "And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."1 Peter 1:23, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."phesians 2:10, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
 
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