Questions for Catholics and Protestants

[Sothenes]

and ignore the next few posters who will more than likely scour anti-Catholic websites to post snippets--out of context--from the Catechism to try and make you believe that the Catholic Church teaches something other than grace... what is the purpose of having faith/doing good works/receiving the Sacraments? GRACE. All for grace. Grace saves.

Just for the record...what kind of Catholic are you?

 

[CatholicXian]

and ignore the next few posters who will more than likely scour anti-Catholic websites to post snippets--out of context--from the Catechism to try and make you believe that the Catholic Church teaches something other than grace... what is the purpose of having faith/doing good works/receiving the Sacraments? GRACE. All for grace. Grace saves.

Just for the record...what kind of Catholic are you?

I'm a Latin rite (Roman Catholic). I usually attend the Tridentine Latin Mass (an indult-- approved by my local bishop), but I don't have a problem attending a Novus Ordo Mass either.

 

[thessalonian]

Patrick,

BWG hit the nail on the head. The heart of the difference is eternal security or Once Saved Always Saved. In Catholic theology works do not save in that they do not bring us grace, but grace needs to result in works. Grace is the food we recieve. Baptism and the Eucharist that provide us the "energy" to do good. But grace is not irresistable and therefore if we do not complete the grace in the works our spiritual bodies become lazy and we begin to slide. Virtue (i.e. chairty, etc.) counters vice. If we are doing good in our lives we are not sinning and sin makes us weak and will eventually enslave us. God works, i.e. practicing virtue is the excercise for our spiritual bodies, like lifting weights or running to our physical bodies.

As for ES or OSAS there are many passages that refute them. This is what was read at Mass yesterday:

"I am the vine, and My Father is the
vinedresser. [2] Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, He takes
away, and every branch that does bear fruit He prunes that it may bear
more fruit. [3] You are already made clean by the word which I have
spoken to you. [4] Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot
bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you,
unless you abide in Me. [5] I am the vine, you are the branches. He
who abides in Me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for
apart from Me you can do nothing. [6] If a man does not abide in Me,
he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are
gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. [7] If you abide in Me, and
My words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for
you. [8] By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and
so prove to be My disciples."


So he is speaking to people who "have been made clean". He is not speaking of those who are not "saved'. He is warning that they MUST abide in him or they cannot bear fruit. Now what sense would it make for him to say "abide in me" if they were never in him. How could they be cut from the vine and BURNED if they were never attached to it? Of course the works that we do are him working in us, producing "thirty, sixty, or 100 fold".


Eph 3
[20]
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
[21] to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.
Any questions?

Blessings

 

[John the Baptist]

John here:
No questions, just a post that I picked up on another site that has questions answered by the Word of God! :fadein:
___

2Sa 22:2 and he said: The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;
(JPS) The God who is my rock, in Him I take refuge; my shield, and my horn of salvation, my high tower, and my refuge; my savior, Thou savest me from violence.

Psa 31:2 (31:3) Incline Thine ear unto me, deliver me speedily; be Thou to me a rock of refuge, even a fortress of defense, to save me.
Psa 31:3 (31:4) For Thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for Thy name's sake lead me and guide me.

Psa 61:2 From the end of the earth will I cry unto thee, when my heart is overwhelmed: lead me to the rock that is higher than I.
Psa 61:3 For thou hast been a shelter for me, and a strong tower from the enemy.
Psa 61:4 I will abide in thy tabernacle forever: I will trust in the covert of thy wings. Selah.

Psa 62:2 He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defense; I shall not be greatly moved.

Psa 94:22 But the LORD is my defense; and my God is the rock of my refuge.
Isa 26:4

(JPS) Trust ye in the LORD for ever, for the LORD is GOD, an everlasting Rock.

(Isa 48:21-22 NIV) "They did not thirst when he led them through the deserts; he made water flow for them from the rock; he split the rock and water gushed out."

(1 Cor 10:2-5 NIV) "They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. {3} They all ate the same spiritual food {4} and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."

(John 4:10 NIV) "Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.""

2 Sam 22:32-33 NIV) "For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God? {33} It is God who arms me with strength and makes my way perfect."

(Psa 18:31-33 NIV) "For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God? {32} It is God who arms me with strength and makes my way perfect. {33} He makes my feet like the feet of a deer; he enables me to stand on the heights."

(Exo 33:18) "Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory."
(Exo 33:20-23 NIV) "But," He said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see Me and live." {21} Then the LORD said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. {22} When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. {23} Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.""

Notice here, that Moses has to be hid in the cleft of the rock to be able to see God and live. It is that because our life is hid in Christ, we may someday see God in all His glorious splendor and live!

(Isa 44:7-9 NIV) "Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to come-- yes, let him foretell what will come. {8} Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." {9} All who make idols are nothing, and the things they treasure are worthless. Those who would speak up for them are blind; they are ignorant, to their own shame."
Of course, this goes on and on and on like this, so we may know who is our Rock, but some men choose the man Peter to be their rock - I just do not understand it, but i understand what the Lord says about it - selecting the doctrine of man over Him.

Deu 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.
Deu 32:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
Deu 32:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.

Psa 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

--------------------

Grace, Peace, and Mercy unto you and yours

Sail2awe

 

[thessalonian]

John,

Beautiful passages to be sure. I agree we are to trust in the Lord. We are to trust in him that he sends shepherds after his own heart (jer 3:15). We are to trust in him that he built a church that the gates of hell shall not prevail against. (Matt 16:18). That he will send leaders for this Church who are converned for our souls that we are to OBEY AND SUBMIT TO. Heb 13:17. That Church is the pillar and support of the truth. 1 Tim 3:15. Not everybody giving their own opinions of what is truth. Apparently you have such opinions. This church is supposed to settle disputes (Matt 18:18) between Christians. Don't know how Matt 18:18 can work where everyone is their own authority. Your point is?

Paul was a man. Paul said "imitate me as I imitate Christ" but John says you can't trust ANY MAN. That would mean you can't trust Paul John. No I think you take some of those passages you have posted out of context.

 

[gingercat]

Paul was a man. Paul said "imitate me as I imitate Christ" but John says you can't trust ANY MAN. That would mean you can't trust Paul John. No I think you take some of those passages you have posted out of context.

It seems that you don't trust the Bible as the inspired Word of God. Those apostles are instruments of God. They learned from Jesus directly. If you cannot trust them you have a big problem as a Christian, thess.

 

[thessalonian]

Paul was a man. Paul said "imitate me as I imitate Christ" but John says you can't trust ANY MAN. That would mean you can't trust Paul John. No I think you take some of those passages you have posted out of context.

It seems that you don't trust the Bible as the inspired Word of God. Those apostles are instruments of God. They learned from Jesus directly. If you cannot trust them you have a big problem as a Christian, thess.

I trust in them completely. I agree the Apostles were instruments of God but they were no less men. If John's post is meant to be taken as trust in no man and follow no men then it applies to the Apostles as well. Sorry. But it is quite obvious that we are to trust in men that God sends who are faithful to him. That is why I trust in Paul when it says "obey and submit to your leaders who have concern for your souls". That is why I trust in Paul when he says their will be teachers who will faithfully pass along the teachings JUST AS they were given by the Apostles (2 Tim 2:2). That is why I don't trust you and your obvuscations of these and many other passages.

One thing is quite clear. You and Henry and Imigican have been teaching yourselves. It shows and it is very sad. :

Blessings

 

[gingercat]

That is why I trust in Paul when it says "obey and submit to your leaders who have concern for your souls".

You don't seem to know how to interpret in the whole context.

We submit to authority if they are not in line with God. We don't go ahead and kill all Jews because Hitler (authority) tells us to!!!

Where is your discernment? Your discernment is so convenient.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

We submit to authority if they are not in line with God.

Since when?

 

[threesixteen]

amen xian!

dont just read the Bible, Jesus said "I have more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now."

in my opinion He was referring to:

the Cathechism of the Catholic Church
True Devotion to Mary by St. Louis de Montfort
Mystical City of God by Mary of Agreda
the Life of Jesus Christ by Anne Catherine Emmerich

as well as Scripture

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

Ginger, when we are told to submit to authorities, we are given multiple authorities. First, to the parents, then to the state. And then when the state is asking you to do something that is not in line with God, then you dont listen to them. However, you are to listen to your presbyters and ours are the hierarchy. They should be yours too, however protestants tend to think of themselves as the authority in the guise of following after God. (sorry to offend people here) I mean, cmon. You search the scripture and come up with your interpretation with no authority other than being 'led by the spirit.' And thats how you get JWs, and Mormons and whatnot. The apostles creed contains the phrase "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church." Apostolic is the key here. The RCC has Apostolic authority. Other churches do not. They were founded way after the RCC and way after the apostles. Even using your bible you place your trust in men. Specifically the council of 398AD, and St. Athanasius. This is our heritage and our authority, firmly based on God. The Church is like Paul who tells people to imitate him because he imitates Christ.

 

[thessalonian]

You don't seem to know how to interpret in the whole context.

We submit to authority if they are not in line with God. We don't go ahead and kill all Jews because Hitler (authority) tells us to!!!

Where is your discernment? Your discernment is so convenient.

So I would kill Jews? Is that what you are implying? I surely hope not. I suggest you watch what you post from now on. This is bordering on slander. What Catholics killed Jews at hitler's request?

Your judgement of me means little to me. You are not God and it is him that I have to answer to. That is Jesus who is God.

 

[gingercat]

So I would kill Jews? Is that what you are implying? I surely hope not. I suggest you watch what you post from now on. This is bordering on slander. What Catholics killed Jews at hitler's request?

Your judgement of me means little to me. You are not God and it is him that I have to answer to. That is Jesus who is God.

I am only reflecting what you are saying. You are saying we should obey authority. You seem to imply that we should obey no matter what.

I would not follow leaders that not in line with the Lord.

All I am saying that I will not follow ungodly leaders.

It seems that you are the one who is framing.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

after reading the thread... i dont see where Thess has implied that he would follow just any authority. And even the term authority implies that it has a right to rule.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

The personal attacks must stop! This topic is about understanding and learning about the differences of Protestants and Catholics. It is not a place for a war of words between Catholics and Protestants or any other non-Catholic.

Stop making assumptions about each other! If the personal attacks continue this topic will be locked and people will start receiving formal warnings. I am going to PM the people who need to settle down because this topic is becoming way too heated. I’m getting very tired of the continued attacks between Protestants and Catholics. What happen to unity in Christ?

Alright, I think I have made myself clear. No calm down people and respect each other, and stop making assumptions.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

Thanks Noc :D

 

[thessalonian]

So I would kill Jews? Is that what you are implying? I surely hope not. I suggest you watch what you post from now on. This is bordering on slander. What Catholics killed Jews at hitler's request?

Your judgement of me means little to me. You are not God and it is him that I have to answer to. That is Jesus who is God.

I am only reflecting what you are saying. You are saying we should obey authority. You seem to imply that we should obey no matter what.

I would not follow leaders that not in line with the Lord.

All I am saying that I will not follow ungodly leaders.

It seems that you are the one who is framing.

Where have I said obey, no matter what. I simply said the scriptures say we have leaders we are to obey. Yes, we use discernment in that process. Your posts have indicated you follow no leaders. Framing?

What leaders do you follow? Answer please. Names please. That is my point.

 

[Sothenes]

Patrick,

BWG hit the nail on the head. The heart of the difference is eternal security or Once Saved Always Saved. In Catholic theology works do not save in that they do not bring us grace, but grace needs to result in works. Grace is the food we recieve. Baptism and the Eucharist that provide us the "energy" to do good. But grace is not irresistable and therefore if we do not complete the grace in the works our spiritual bodies become lazy and we begin to slide. Virtue (i.e. chairty, etc.) counters vice. If we are doing good in our lives we are not sinning and sin makes us weak and will eventually enslave us. God works, i.e. practicing virtue is the excercise for our spiritual bodies, like lifting weights or running to our physical bodies.

As for ES or OSAS there are many passages that refute them. This is what was read at Mass yesterday:

"I am the vine, and My Father is the
vinedresser. [2] Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, He takes
away, and every branch that does bear fruit He prunes that it may bear
more fruit. [3] You are already made clean by the word which I have
spoken to you. [4] Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot
bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you,
unless you abide in Me. [5] I am the vine, you are the branches. He
who abides in Me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for
apart from Me you can do nothing. [6] If a man does not abide in Me,
he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are
gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. [7] If you abide in Me, and
My words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for
you. [8] By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and
so prove to be My disciples."


So he is speaking to people who "have been made clean". He is not speaking of those who are not "saved'. He is warning that they MUST abide in him or they cannot bear fruit. Now what sense would it make for him to say "abide in me" if they were never in him. How could they be cut from the vine and BURNED if they were never attached to it? Of course the works that we do are him working in us, producing "thirty, sixty, or 100 fold".


Eph 3
[20]
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
[21] to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.
Any questions?

Blessings

I believe that Jesus was speaking to the nation of Israel because the covenant was conditional because they had a law.

The text you are quoting is a bad hermeneutic because it has to be interpreted and it is not clear to everyone when it has to be interpreted. You miss the clear verses like John 3:16, John 5:24 and others when you say that salvation is conditional. John 1:8-9 says you always sin so if salvation was conditional then you would always lose salvation.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jesus says 'hath life'. Jesus doesn't say 'might have' or 'could have'. Jesus says 'hath' life. For you or anyone to say that the verses spoken to the Jews were intended to the church are making a false hermeneutic which is replacement theology and anti-semetic.

 

[Sothenes]

The personal attacks must stop! This topic is about understanding and learning about the differences of Protestants and Catholics. It is not a place for a war of words between Catholics and Protestants or any other non-Catholic.

Stop making assumptions about each other! If the personal attacks continue this topic will be locked and people will start receiving formal warnings. I am going to PM the people who need to settle down because this topic is becoming way too heated. I’m getting very tired of the continued attacks between Protestants and Catholics. What happen to unity in Christ?

Alright, I think I have made myself clear. No calm down people and respect each other, and stop making assumptions.

I will be respectful but I will not submit to Rome.

 

[thessalonian]

Soth,

Let's just say that Rome was the Church that Christ founded (by the way I find all sorts of obvuscations that I am sure you would call hermenutic of Matt 16:18). Would you be submissive to Christ and submit to his Church if this were the case?

As for your post above, I have to say this is the first time I have heard the bad hermenutic excuse. Why was Jesus not speaking to the nation of Israel in John 3:16? Don't you think that having Eternal Life means we must continue to abide in Christ? Can we stop continuing to abide in him and believe in him and still have eternal life? If we are in him we most definitely have eternal life as a noun. However, it is clear to me that we must continue to believe nad abide in Christ. Paul tells us in 1 Cor 15:2

1Cor.15
[1]
Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand,
[2] by which you are saved, if you hold it fast -- unless you believed in vain.

Saved if? Conditional I do believe. So what is the hermenutic problem here? I don't know of any. Was he speaking to Jews here as well. Or are you going to use the hypothetical excuse I've heard many times from Protestants.

Blessings