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Questions for Catholics and Protestants

thessalonian said:
John,

Beautiful passages to be sure. I agree we are to trust in the Lord. We are to trust in him that he sends shepherds after his own heart (jer 3:15). We are to trust in him that he built a church that the gates of hell shall not prevail against. (Matt 16:18). That he will send leaders for this Church who are converned for our souls that we are to OBEY AND SUBMIT TO. Heb 13:17. That Church is the pillar and support of the truth. 1 Tim 3:15. Not everybody giving their own opinions of what is truth. Apparently you have such opinions. This church is supposed to settle disputes (Matt 18:18) between Christians. Don't know how Matt 18:18 can work where everyone is their own authority. Your point is?

Paul was a man. Paul said "imitate me as I imitate Christ" but John says you can't trust ANY MAN. That would mean you can't trust Paul John. No I think you take some of those passages you have posted out of context.

***
Are you kidding me? You are suggesting that Catholic 'fold' 'church' is called of God? :o come on, get real! Sure, there are some of Christ's own 'yoked' in the satanic fold (Revelation 3:9 for starters) that are sincerely 'BLIND' that must leave the mess or loose their Salvation, (Revelation 18:4) but you will never convince an [AWAKE] Born Again Christian that Rome as a fold is anything other than what the Word of God calls her..THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH. Open your eyes! Read the News! Turn on the T.V. Or just read HER ABOMINABLE CLAIMS!!! Such as Peter being the first pope! Hogwash, pig slop or whatever Peter call it?! (2 Peter 2:19-22) Christian? hardly!

Let me clarify this again. There are some of the Master's 'spiritual blind' saints still in the Catholic fold just now, yet, NEVER CAN THE ABOMINAL CHURCH BE CALLED A CHRISTIAN FOLD! Got that?

---John
 
Are you kidding me? You are suggesting that Catholic 'fold' 'church' is called of God? :o come on, get real!

Of course I was kidding John. I am just Catholic for kicks. My faith in Christ isn't real. Couldn't possibly be according to you.

Sure, there are some of Christ's own 'yoked' in the satanic fold (Revelation 3:9 for starters) that are sincerely 'BLIND' that must leave the mess or loose their Salvation, (Revelation 18:4) but you will never convince an [AWAKE] Born Again Christian that Rome as a fold is anything other than what the Word of God calls her..THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH. Open your eyes! Read the News! Turn on the T.V. Or just read HER ABOMINABLE CLAIMS!!! Such as Peter being the first pope! Hogwash, pig slop or whatever Peter call it?! (2 Peter 2:19-22) Christian? hardly!

Thanks John. I'll stay where I'm at.

Let me clarify this again. There are some of the Master's 'spiritual blind' saints still in the Catholic fold just now, yet, NEVER CAN THE ABOMINAL CHURCH BE CALLED A CHRISTIAN FOLD! Got that?

---John[/b]

Thx for your opinion based on ignorance John. You avoided my question. As usualy your posts don't really adress my points when I dialogue with you. I find that most people who post things such as you have are far from understanding the great depth and breadth of Catholicism and how it gives great glory to God. Open your mind and you will be greatly rewarded.

Blessings
 
Thank you Lord for my ignorance! John :wink:
Here we see the antichrist speaking!

"And Catholicism Speaks"

"We hold upon earth the place of God Almighty."
-Pope Leo X111, in an Encyclical Letter-

"We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday."
-Doctrinal Catechism, 1957 , page 50.
_______________________________

Rome has gone the way of satan. Her cup is James 1:15 'Filled up'! She has not only Blasphemed against the Holy Ghost of Matthew 12:31-32, but she has boasted that she is 'god'! One can readily see that she is a 'Christ/less fold' (Revelation 3:9) Most all church's through the reformation knew that 1 John 5:16-17 had found her as a corrupt antichrist fold that had sinned this sin 'unto death'! With a closed probational door!

Malachi 3:6
"I am the Lord, I change not."
(but Rome says that He does! Who is the LIAR?)

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
(that makes the Everlasting Gospel & the Everlasting Covenant of Revelation 14:6 & Hebrews 13:20 have Christ [ETERNALLY IMMORTAL] and unchanging)

Exodus 20:1-17
(This is the Everlasting Covenant of the Godhead that they penned in their own handwriting, and that they wrote themselves. Also check out James 2:8-12 & Ecclesiastes 12:13-14)
And Rome says that they changed this eternal Covenant! See Daniel 7:25 for whose working desire they follow!
Also check out Cain in Genesis 4:7.

1 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
(yet the devil says no, fall down and worship me! Even kiss his ring, huh? See Revelation 22:8-10 & Acts 10:25-26!!)

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
(This Rome 'thumbs her nose' at & does also! Ezekiel 8:16-18)


5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
(Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them!)

6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Yet, 'c'hristian Rome boasts of even a low estimate of over 150 million Christian martyr's slain by them as is documented in Fox Book of Martyrs!

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
(We think that this means swearing only perhaps? But check Mark 7:7! [VAIN WORSHIP] keeping the commandments of men! The pope on down)

8 Remember the Sabbath day, [to keep it holy.]

9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:

10 But the [seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God:] in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in [six days] the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: [wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it].

(you can read their open documentation of heavenly Recorded Blasphemy & see why there are the Rev. 17:1-5 ones + [mass] killings! Compare Ecclesiastes 12:13-14)

12 Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

13 Thou shalt not kill.
(their tally will include millions even of the second death ones because of false doctrines! Check the closing verses of the Book of Revelation 22:18-19, that of adding to or removing from the Word of God!)

14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
(but their worse sin is their 'spiritual adultery & whore/doms with the devil & his doctrine of Rev. 13!)

15 Thou shalt not steal.
(this does not even merit comment with the money that they have stolen from 'ignorant' sincere Catholics!)

16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
Deuteronomy 5:20 Matthew 19:18 Mark 10:19 Luke 18:20 Romans 13:9 & don't forget 2 Corinthians. 4:2.

17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.
Mark 10:19 Romans 13:9
_____

Then Luke 12:47-48 tells who are the MOST GUILTY! The ones who [VIOLATE OPENLY, THE ETERNAL COVENANT OF THE GODHEAD!]

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: [for sin is the transgression of the law.] (the Eternal Covenant of the Universe!)

1 John 2:4 He that saith, [I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.]

Isaiah 8:20 [To the law] (Eternal Covenant that God Himself WROTE!) and to the testimony: (The Bible) [if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is *no light in them.]

Ecclesiastes 3:14
I know that, whatsoever God doeth, [it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it]: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

(notice the verse of Rev. below!)
Revelation 22:18-21
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of [this book,] If [any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:]

19 And if [any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part *out of the book of life], and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
(this goes right along with the Eccl. verse. Rome [is] THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH!! Rev. 17:5
This is the compilers caps, but OPEN YOUR EYES AND LOOK AT HER in the daily News print, and on daily T.V. World News in just the past few years!

This FAITH has made a COVENANT with the devil himself! See Genesis 4:7's fruit sacrifice for Eternal Covenant breaking! + James 2:8-12.

**[Yet, inside of Rome, Christ has His IGNORANT PEOPLE still in 'yoked membership' who MUST LEAVE her yoked bondage or be lost eternally!! :sad Along with the ones of verse 5!.. her Harlot daughters, see Revelation 18:4]
 
Boy, glad I got in before this thread too is locked for bad behavior. (he he he).

First of all, Noc, I thank you for the information concerning the different denominations and their views on salvation. Intersesting stuff and important things to know. Thanks again.

Since our friend that started this thread has departed, (and never to return by his own admission), I guess it's safe to just step in where ever there seems to be an argument that's going the 'wrong' way, (always did root for the underdog).

There is ONLY ONE AUTHORITY my friends. God is the head of Christ as He is the Head of the Body, as man is the head of the woman. With this order in mind, there is ONLY ONE authority. Utlimately it is God. For it was God who sent His Son to die and God who authored the Word, and God who is, well, God.

So arguments about the authority of men able to discern what 'others' should or shouldn't be doing is nothing but traditional teaching that ONLY has a place in the hearts and minds of those that can't see beyond it. As there are men that would abuse the authority that they were given over the woman, there are men that will abuse any power given them over other men. I have found this especially true when it comes to religions.

Salvation is a PERSONAL gift to those that are willing to accept it. Those that teach that we have NO part in our salvation have bought into something other than what the Word itself teaches. We have obligations whether an individual determines them to be 'works' or not. The interpretations of men are irrelevant to the 'truth', and often contradictory to it. Anytime someone takes one line of scripture that is contradictory to the Bible as a 'whole', then these statements are ONLY PART OF THE ANSWER. No where in the Word is it stated that we are to simply accept the gift offered and do nothing to show our obedience to God. As a matter of FACT, the Bible states over and over that we DO have obligations and there IS an amount that we are to offer to even 'think' that salvation is ours.

But, in NONE of these are a 'bowing down' to other men mentioned. Our authority as far as the Word is concerned has been established since it's inception. The authority lies in the Word itself, being that it is FROM GOD, given to man for his betterment and understanding of His will.

Now, with these things in mind, I ask a question for those that will dispute what I have offered: Who then is able to bring about anothers salvation? Which denomination or which church leader is able to discern who is and who isn't going to receive the gift. And are not each of us individuals with different blessings and gifts bestowed upon us as GOD sees fit? And this being the case, then WHO'S responsibility is salvation and how do they obtain it? Answer these first and I'll be back to answer the rest.
 
thessalonian said:
What leaders do you follow? Answer please. Names please. That is my point.

I hope I don't get in trouble answering this. I have been following Jesus. Is that so hard to understand? I have already expressed that I cannot find a godly church. Since when have you the right to tell others we all need organaized church? I already learned about the Catholic church and they are not biblical IMHO. This is my conviction. We have huge diefference interpreting the"church". Why do you harp about it over and over?

Meanwhile I will abide by American laws but I will not engage in any kind of unbiblical activities such as joining the military. I don't need your permission regarding whom I fellowship with and how I serve God. I have already expressed my testimony many times how I serve God.

Noc, would you take a look at this kind of behavior? I hope you understand why I had to answer to this. His disrespect for me is uncalled for.
 
thessalonian said:
Soth,

Let's just say that Rome was the Church that Christ founded (by the way I find all sorts of obvuscations that I am sure you would call hermenutic of Matt 16:18). Would you be submissive to Christ and submit to his Church if this were the case?

As for your post above, I have to say this is the first time I have heard the bad hermenutic excuse. Why was Jesus not speaking to the nation of Israel in John 3:16? Don't you think that having Eternal Life means we must continue to abide in Christ? Can we stop continuing to abide in him and believe in him and still have eternal life? If we are in him we most definitely have eternal life as a noun. However, it is clear to me that we must continue to believe nad abide in Christ. Paul tells us in 1 Cor 15:2

1Cor.15
[1]
Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand,
[2] by which you are saved, if you hold it fast -- unless you believed in vain.

Saved if? Conditional I do believe. So what is the hermenutic problem here? I don't know of any. Was he speaking to Jews here as well. Or are you going to use the hypothetical excuse I've heard many times from Protestants.

Blessings

Dear Thessalonian,

Whatever God makes clear to me, I would repent from anything and do what He wants. People yell at me as if they don't think that I would correct my own mistakes if they didn't yell. The truth is that I consider myself that kind of person who would try to correct myself. I also recognise that I'm only human and can only do what I can or what God enables me to do.

In order to teach a passage, everyone in sunday school learns that sound doctrine is formed not from taking a passage out of context but you actually have to determine whom is doing the speaking, etc. You have to find it taught in the Gospel, practiced in the book of Acts, expounded upon in the Epistles and you have to have an old testament and new testament references and examination of the passage from other gospels. None of those criteria were presented here but the verse was just presented as if the interpretation was fact. Not only that but you take a hard to understand verse and superimpose the interpretation over easy to understand and clear verses. Many Protestant scholars say there are something like a hundred verses that talk about justification by faith alone so I went looking for verses and recorded my own because I do my own work.

"Don't you think that having Eternal Life means we must continue to abide in Christ? Can we stop continuing to abide in him and believe in him and still have eternal life?"

It all depends on how you define what you are saying. Some people use the discipleship verses to define what a Christian is instead of recognising that we are justified by faith and that there are other requirements to be a disciple. Jesus often required something of people that were around Him to get a miracle or to be around Him and people confuse that and superimpose those ideas on the plain and simple ideas.

There was a time when I was offended and was so mad but God keeps calling me back because I'm not my own and I can't leave and what is worse is that my identity starts to take on part of His identity so if I leave then I'll starve spiritually. And what is worse is that the word of God speaks to me somehow which makes me realise that He is there and that the relationship is more than faith anymore. Worse than that is that the enemy throws his darts at me. It isn't a choice anymore for me. I believed once, I wanted to leave, and now He's directing me.
 
"And Simon Peter answered and said. THOU ART THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD. ... And I SAY UNTO THEE, That thou art Peter, AND UPON [[THIS ROCK]] WILL I BUILD MY CHURCH.." Matt. 16:16 & 18 (in part)
What ROCK IS THE FOLD BUILT UPON? Peter? No way!!

I skipped verse 17 for you to want to know what Christ had just revealed to Peter, go read it! 'Revealed' what? Read verse 16 A-G-A-I-N!

Now:
In Matt. 18:14-18 we see NO MENTION of Peter! But Christ tells ALL who the CHURCH IS.

"AND IF HE NEGLECT TO HEAR [[THEM]], (any one or two members!) tell [[IT UNTO THE CHURCH]]: (the body) but if he neglect [[TO HEAR THE *CHURCH,]] let him be unto THEE as an heathen man and a publican. [VERILY I SAY [[UNTO YOU]], whatsoever [[YE]] BIND ON EARTH SHALL BE BOUND IN HEAVEN: AND WHATSOEVER [[YE]] SHALL LOOSE ON EARTH [[SHALL BE LOOSED IN HEAVEN.]]"

Now: You have said that this IS Peter that has the keys to the Masters kingdom? That is Catholic teaching! And even the True Virgin Fold of Christ's OWN were CUT OFF! Matt. 23:38, Rev. 2:5 or Rev. 3:9
And yes, it is realized that the Mother of Rev. 17:5 does have Harlot daughters. Read these verses and take note that any 'fold' and all folds who brake off from the truth of Christ's Word will be broken off! Yet Christ will always have a 'Remnant'! Revelation 12:17.

Where was Peter at when Saul (Paul) was knocked down in Acts 9? and in verse 6 [Christ commanded] him to go where, to see Peter? Hardly! And if one has 'spiritual eyesight', they can readily see who it was that was being persecuted in verses 1-2. (see verse 31 for the Word churches!)

And my 'spiritual eyesight' remark? See 2 Peter 3:16-17. But, it was not just Paul's work that your Peter is talking about, notice.. but 'as they do also the other scripture,..' And, why do most of Catholicism not understand the WORD OF GOD?? Read 1 John 4:6. Seems that it is not ONLY Rome who gives Peter the keys of the kingdom, huh?

I am not knocking lay Catholics as 'individual' Christians. But that FALSE DOCTRINE stinks plenty! See Rev. 18:4 Even in kneeling to a human sinful priest! Then talking of Peter the pope. :roll:
See Peter in Acts 10:25-26 for the Catholic santanic stuff of kneeling at the pope feet & kissing his ring! Then if one is too blinded still???? Check out what the angels of heaven do! See Revelation's last book of WARNING! Revelation 22:8-9. Then read the last few verses of the book! Revelation 22:18-19 for what Rome has done over & over again! See Daniel 7:25

Bottom line:
"JESUS CHRIST [[HIMSELF]] BEING THE [CHIEF CORNER STONE]; IN WHOM [ALL] THE BUILDING FITLY FRAMED TOGETHER GROWETH UNTO AN HOLY TEMPLE IN THE LORD." Eph. 2:20-21

---John
 
John the Baptist said:
"And Simon Peter answered and said. THOU ART THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD. ... And I SAY UNTO THEE, That thou art Peter, AND UPON [[THIS ROCK]] WILL I BUILD MY CHURCH.." Matt. 16:16 & 18 (in part)
What ROCK IS THE FOLD BUILT UPON? Peter? No way!!

Just like the Church is not built upon a foundation of prophes and Apostles. No way, eh John. You might want to read Eph 2:20. Yes, I know about 1 Cor 3:11. Men the light of the world? Couldn't be? :lol: You judge as a man and twist the words to fit accrordingly. Peter is rock John. Obvuscate all you want to fit your theology. Peter was given the keys based on being the rock John. No, I am not denying that Jesus is the rock, any more than I would deny that he is the foundation or the light of the world. I don't think in dichotomy as you do John.

[quote:a8e1c]I skipped verse 17 for you to want to know what Christ had just revealed to Peter, go read it! 'Revealed' what? Read verse 16 A-G-A-I-N!

Yes you did. And your point is? God made him the rock as God made moses to lead the Jews across the desert. Does that mean that Moses did not lead them and was not their leader. Oh and the anti-dichotmy point as well. God lead them accross the desert now didn't he. In what way does that deny that he gives us leaders?

Now:
In Matt. 18:14-18 we see NO MENTION of Peter! But Christ tells ALL who the CHURCH IS.

"AND IF HE NEGLECT TO HEAR [[THEM]], (any one or two members!) tell [[IT UNTO THE CHURCH]]: (the body) but if he neglect [[TO HEAR THE *CHURCH,]] let him be unto THEE as an heathen man and a publican. [VERILY I SAY [[UNTO YOU]], whatsoever [[YE]] BIND ON EARTH SHALL BE BOUND IN HEAVEN: AND WHATSOEVER [[YE]] SHALL LOOSE ON EARTH [[SHALL BE LOOSED IN HEAVEN.]]"

John who was this spoken to? The Apostles. More leadership John. Your twisting is incredible and it gets worse below.

Now: You have said that this IS Peter that has the keys to the Masters kingdom? That is Catholic teaching! And even the True Virgin Fold of Christ's OWN were CUT OFF! Matt. 23:38, Rev. 2:5 or Rev. 3:9
And yes, it is realized that the Mother of Rev. 17:5 does have Harlot daughters. Read these verses and take note that any 'fold' and all folds who brake off from the truth of Christ's Word will be broken off! Yet Christ will always have a 'Remnant'! Revelation 12:17.
[/quote:a8e1c]

Peter didn't get the keys like Jesus said he would? John you make Jesus a liar. "I give YOU the keys to the kingdom.....". Do explain how you twist this in to Peter didn't get any keys John. I do hope I am misunderstanding.

All I have time for right now John. Perhaps later.
 
Soth,

It isn't a choice anymore for me. I believed once, I wanted to leave, and now He's directing me.

Are you willing to go where he takes you, even if it is somewhere you do not want to go?
 
John here: This was sent to me from someone a while back who gave no name? I thought it had some very up to date material in the post. One might just file it for study?
_________



EARTH'S FINAL WARNING
CHAOS AWAITS MAJOR CITIES... RESULTING IN THE ENFORCEMENT OF A NATIONAL SUNDAY LAW. "AND THAT NO MAN MIGHT BUY OR SELL, SAVE HE THAT HAD THE MARK, OR THE NAME OF THE BEAST" REV. 13:17.
LIBERTY OF CONSCIENCE DENIED - EVERY PRINCIPLE OF THE CONSTITUTION WILL BE REPUDIATED "AND ALL THE WORLD WONDERED AFTER THE BEAST" REV. 13:3.

WHO IS THE WOMAN RIDING THE BEAST?

In prophetic language, the symbol of a Woman represents a church, as we find it in Jeremiah 6:1-2 or Ephesians 5:24-27. Also in the book of Revelation, it is described to us, by the symbol of a "woman" the pure and only church of Christ, that "keeps the commandments of God and has the faith of Jesus" (Rev. 12:6, 13-17; 14:12). Revelation describes another "woman" that is not of Christ, it is a rich, an arrogant, and a persecuting church, as we will see:

“And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet [red] color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand [the vessels of her rituals] full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of harlots and abominations of the earth†(Rev.17:4-5).

“And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints [even though she speaks of peace, she’s murderous & persecuting Dan. 8:23-25], and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration†(Rev. 17:6).

“And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns†(Rev. 17:7).

“And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, [historically, Rome has been the city of the seven mountains] on which the woman sitteth†(Rev. 17:9).


“And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings [world powers at large], which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast [in prophecy, a “beast†is a kingly power, Dan. 7:17,23]. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast†(Rev. 17:12-13).

“And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth [to sit means to control through world governments, as we have illustrated in this prophetic narrative], are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues†(Rev 17:15).

“For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast [an ecclesiastical-political new- world order], until the words of God shall be fulfilled. And the woman [the impure church ] which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth†(Rev. 17:17-18). Note: With prophetic insight into the future, John was unmistakably hinting that there would be a power that would lust for both political and religious supremacy.

The late Jesuit and Vatican insider, Malachi Martin, wrote, “...he [John Paul II] insists that men have no reliable hope of creating a viable geopolitical system unless it is on the basis of Roman Catholic Christianity.†The Keys of This Blood, page 492.

WHAT IS HER MARK?
“The OBSERVANCE of SUNDAY by the Protestants is an HOMAGE THEY PAY in spite of themselves to the AUTHORITY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.†Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk about Protestantism of Today, page 213.

“The Catholic Church, for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday.†The Catholic Mirror, September, 1893.

“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act... And the act is a MARK of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things.†H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons. Nov 11, 1895.

“The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of the Sabbath observance is proof positive of that fact.†The Catholic Record, London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.

“We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.†Peter Geiermann, CSSR, A Doctrinal Catechism, 1957 Edition, page 50.

John Paul II receives U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan for a private audience at the Vatican, Tuesday, Feb. 18, 2003.

“We all gather on the day of the SUN...Sunday on which the paschal mystery is celebrated in the light of the apostolic tradition and is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal church.†New Catholic Catechism (1993), pages 582, 583.

THE FIRST SUNDAY LAW
“The earliest recognition of the observation of Sunday as a legal duty is a constitution of Constantine [the first Roman “church-state†Emperor] in 321 A.D.†Encyclopedia Britannica, Ninth Edition, Article “Sunday.â€Â

“FIRST DAY†BIBLE TEXTS
Millions of conscientious Christians attend church every Sunday, the first day of the week. They do so believing that somewhere, somehow, someone changed the day of worship. Either that, or they aren’t aware that God set aside the seventh day, not the first day of the week, as His holy day. It is true, a change has been made. But by whom? We will discover that God made the Sabbath during the first week of earth’s history. He set it aside as a weekly appointment between man and Himself - as a blessing, a refreshment, the day to especially remember, honor and worship Him as our Creator and King. If God changed His mind about His special appointed day with us, wouldn’t He have recorded so momentous an adjustment in the Bible? There are only eight texts in the New Testament that mention the first day of the week. Please look at them carefully. (Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:1,2; Mark 16:9; Luke 24:1; John 20:1; John 20:19; Acts 20:7, 8; I Corinthians 16:1, 2).

The first five texts simply state that the women came to the sepulcher early on the resurrection morning, and that Jesus rose from the dead. Now look up John 20:19 in your Bible. It tells us that Jesus appeared to the disciples later on the resurrection day. It says that the reason they were assembled was “for fear of the Jews.â€Â
No telling when the Jews might grab them and treat them to the same fate as their Master. They had seen their beloved Master die on Friday. They “returned and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment.†(Luke 23:56) And now they’re hiding with the door shut for “fear of the Jews†(John 20:19). There’s no mention of a change.

Pope John Paul II's envoy Cardinal Roger Etchegaray, left, meets with the former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, right, in Baghdad, Saturday Feb. 15, 2003

The seventh text is Acts 20:7,8. It says, “and upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. And there were many lights in the upper
chamber, where they were gathered together.†This was a night meeting - the dark part of the first day of the week. In the Bible reckoning, the dark part of the day comes before the light part. “And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called night. And the evening and the morning were the first day†(Gen. 1:5).

The dark part comes first. The Bible reckons a day from sunset to sunset. The seventh day begins at sunset Friday evening. The first day begins sunset Saturday evening. Paul is together with his friends on the dark part of the first day of the week which we call today “Saturday nightâ€Â. This is a farewell get-together. He preaches until midnight until poor Eutychus falls out of the window (Acts 20:9). Verse eleven says that they talked until the break of day, and then Paul departed. Verse thirteen shows that Paul spent that Sunday morning traveling to Assos. There’s nothing here either concerning a change of the Sabbath.

The New English Bible translates this text like this: “On Saturday night, in our assembly for the breaking of the bread, Paul who was to leave the next day, addressed them, and went on speaking until midnight†(Acts 20:7). The last text that mentions the first day of the week is in I Corinthians 16:1, 2. It says: “Now concerning the
collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God has prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.†Verse three tells us that he will bring the offering to Jerusalem. As he had done in Galatia, so
Paul also requested of those in Corinth to have a collection all ready when he would come to take it to the poor saints in Jerusalem. There’s nothing in the text about a church service, but each person is to “lay by him in store.†The first day of the week was the best time for people to set some money aside, because later in the week, it would be spent. That’s also true today! Paul requested this so “that there be no gathering when I come†(I Corinthians 16:2).

SATURDAY IS THE SABBATH...THE 7TH
DAY... THE LORD’S DAY...Beware of SUNDAY...Counterfeit Sabbath...the mark of the beast that will be enforced as the day of rest and worship by a national Sunday law! Exodus 20:8-11, Ezekiel 20:20, Daniel 7:25, Matthew 12:8, Luke 23:56, Revelation 13:16-17 & 14:7-12.

“The Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day†(Mat. 12:8). “The seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God†(Fourth Commandment, Exodus 20:8-11). “And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James... very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulcher at the rising of the sun...

And entering into the sepulcher, they saw a young man...And he saith unto them, be not affrighted; Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: He is risen.†(Mark 16:1-6).

Everyone knows that Sunday was the resurrection day. “The Sabbath was past†when it dawned. Thus it is evident that the Sabbath is Saturday, the day before Sunday. “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill†(Matthew 5:17). “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and e a r t h pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled†(Matthew 5 : 1 8 ). “The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath†(Mark 2:27).

“And that day was the preparation and the sabbath drew on. And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulcher, and how His body was laid. And they returned and prepared spices and ointments; and rested thesabbath day according to the commandment†(Luke 23:54-56).

Notice that Luke, a non-Jewish biblical writer, approximately 37 years AFTER the resurrection of Christ, still called the Sabbath (the seventh day of the week) a Commandment of God.

“And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scripture†(Acts 17:2). “And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks†(Acts 18:4). “There remaineth therefore a rest [Sabbath] to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from His†(Hebrews 4:9, 10). “For he spake in a certain place of the
seventh day...And God did rest the seventh day from all his works,†“And blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it†(Hebrews 4:4 and Exodus 20:11).

In the New Testament, there are no fewer than 59 references to the Sabbath. The book of Acts records 84 Sabbaths on which the Apostle Paul and his associates held religious services. Yet there is not ONE word in the entire Bible authorizing Sunday keeping.

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth NOT his Commandments, IS A LIAR, and THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM†(1John 2:4). “If you love Me, KEEP my commandments†(John 14:15). “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet OFFEND IN ONE POINT, he is GUILTY OF ALL†(James 2:10). The law that the Bible refers to, here, is the law of the TEN COMMANDMENTS, which were written by God’s finger (James 2:8-11, Mathew 5:17- 21, Exodus 31:18, Deuteronomy 10:1-4).

“And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up: and, as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and stood up for to read†(Luke 4:16). “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the Commandments†(Matthew 19:17). “God blessed the SEVENTH DAY AND SANCTIFIED IT†(Genesis 2:3). “He hath blessed and I cannot reverse it†(Numbers 23:20) “For thou blessest, O Lord, and it shall be blessed for ever†(I Chronicles 17:27).
French Cardinal Roger Etchegary, representing the Papal envoy, with Yasser Arafat.

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven†(Matthew 7:21). “Many will say to Me that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy Name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: Depart from me, ye that work iniquity†(Matthew 7:22, 23).

“For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain; and it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, saith the LORD †(Isaiah 66:22, 23). According to Colossians 2:14-17, the sacrifices with its ceremonies and rituals as registered in Leviticus 23 and other texts, were nailed [abolished] on the cross. But not the Sabbath of the Fourth Commandment that is Eternal, as indicated in the above Bible verses.

A CALL TO ALL MENâ€â€REVELATION 14
“Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.†Rev. 14:7. “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which
is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.†Rev. 14:9-10.

For many years, we have seen Sunday closing laws on local, state, and municipal levels. Men are forced to close certain kinds of
businesses, and are prohibited from some secular activities on the first working day [Sunday] of the week, lest they be fined or imprisoned. And the situation will grow worse in the days ahead, “And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name†(Read Rev.
13:15-17). But there is victory for those who will stand true to the God of heaven, because there is overcoming power for those who will “keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.†Rev. 14:12.

“Trust and obey, for there’s no other way, to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.â€Â


 
"up to date material"? When it's quoting articles from the late 1800s?!
 
John,

You seem to be having difficulty staying with the discussion and want to go off on tangents and wild speculations and individual interpretations of the book of revelations that don't hold under close scrutiny. Perhaps you would answer my last post as a common courtesy, rather than just slinding in to the next bit from the Gospel of anti-catholicism.
 
thessalonian said:
John,

You seem to be having difficulty staying with the discussion and want to go off on tangents and wild speculations and individual interpretations of the book of revelations that don't hold under close scrutiny. Perhaps you would answer my last post as a common courtesy, rather than just slinding in to the next bit from the Gospel of anti-catholicism.

*****
John here:
I take the approach that I do not know who has surrendered their heart to Christ & who has not. (Revelation 18:4) I try never to attack & read the motives of any poster because it is not possible to do, & also I have no 'desire' (see Genesis 4:7) to do so. That is between them & Christ.

Yet, I am very familiar with satans 'Jesuit' tactics of attacking the person & not the (his) subject material, as you seem tom be doing. But that of course is on the thread subject, huh?

With that being said, and with God giving the Word to teach & preach of Catholicism being the Mother of Harlots and THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH (in their K.J. compilers caps) as an APOSTATE church, (see Revelation 14:6-14 forum) And then when this thread question comes up,
God/forbid that I will never hold my peace as long as He see's fit to give me Strength. (Philippians 4:13) And Catholicism is the slime/pit of the earth! Revelation 17:1-5 And is Daily documented for all to see in ETERNITIES PROPHESIED EVERLASTING GOSPEL!! :crying: (Revelation 14:6)

Now: How about you staying on the Bible & documented evidence of Catholic 'faith & their WORKS' questions, and off of mind reading & personal attacks. And wild speculation?? Look young'in, this is your 'works' seen in daily print, and your 'fold' doctrines of BLASPHEMY, not mine!
 
John,

I merely ask you to address my rebuttals to your distortions of scripture. You have not done so.
 
thessalonian said:
Soth,

It isn't a choice anymore for me. I believed once, I wanted to leave, and now He's directing me.

Are you willing to go where he takes you, even if it is somewhere you do not want to go?

***
Soth, why not get a decided quote from this poster in the reversal to see if he will leave the pope & put Christ's Words first, even if it is somewhere that he does not want to go?? (with no double talk! side issues & personal character assassination)

Just wondering, do you know what a jesuit is?
---John
 
wow... that long blue post was ridiculous... and uncalled for... and not exactly reliable. thats the stuff i would read when i was staunchly anti catholic, and even then wouldnt buy it due to its poor construction and circumstantial evidence.

And John, I have a question for you. Is it necessary to type with all kinds of colors and underlines and bolds and whatnot... for the ADD among us, your posts are seriously kinda hard to read.
 
belovedwolfofgod said:
wow... that long blue post was ridiculous... and uncalled for... and not exactly reliable. thats the stuff i would read when i was staunchly anti catholic, and even then wouldnt buy it due to its poor construction and circumstantial evidence.

And John, I have a question for you. Is it necessary to type with all kinds of colors and underlines and bolds and whatnot... for the ADD among us, your posts are seriously kinda hard to read.

**
John here: I get the hard to read thought. But Revelation 17:5 is in caps! :wink:

Now, I have one for you to answer like I answered your 'post' :fadein:.

It goes like this.. When one is Born Again as in Hebrews 10:15-16,.. you know the Eternal Covenant is then (not before) created in the mind (their hearts) by God Himself. Forget the complete ten for this question for the moment. (James 2:8-12) This is what I am asking any Born Again ones.. is there any way that you could bow down to any man, and kiss his ring also????? See Acts 10:25-26 with Matthew 4:8-9 & Revelation 22:8-9 for starters for what is called circumstantial evidence!

So I know that there is no Born Again one who could or would do such an Eternal Covenant BREAKING thing! 1 John 2:4
 
John,

Is bowing down always worship? Is kissing someone or something always worship? If not then is the combination of the two worship? What constitutes worship in your mind John? Is it consistent with the Bible? I do beleive the Bible allows that bowing down and kissing are not always worship. I will be glad to provide scripture for you. Will you submit to it? You have judged some Catholic actions worship but I do believe that worship is a matter of the heart and your not very qualified to judge the hearts and minds of men, since it's a talent that only God has.

In honor of the office of the papacy, created by Jesus Christ I would bow down before the pope and kiss his ring, knowing that he is a man given authority to guide the Catholic Church by Christ himself and through him.
It would not be worship because the pope is only a creature in Christ's creation for the purpose of serving him and bringing about glory to him. Rend your garmets if you must.


Blessings
 
Jesus is the ROCK Peter is merely one building stone and nothing more or less then that. my church is built on Jesus Christ, if it is not then it is not my church.

LOL I just get a kick out of the way catholics miss this rock issue and make peter into something he is not.

Sad
 
thessalonian said:
I do believe that worship is a matter of the heart and your not very qualified to judge the hearts and minds of men, since it's a talent that only God has.

Blessings

Thess,

I changed my life according to what the Bible says, I have been finding out so many unbiblical practices because I have been non-believer for a long time.

You should open your mind and heart to others' criticisms if they make sense instead of telling them "'not to judge". that's how we learn by listening to critics. I have changed many of my practices because of others' criticisms. I appreciate their criticisms that I could not see for myself.
 
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