Rapture and the Second Coming

[Brother Mike]

Many Christians today have been led to believe that the rapture is a secret that occurs either before, after or in the middle of a seven year tribulation period. Firstly, the word rapture does not occur in the Bible and secondly, while scripture does speak of tribulation it does not say specifically how long it will be. And thirdly, nowhere is the Bible is the so called rapture spoken of as being secret.

It was this statement here that got my attention. Many Christians are led to believe..................... Many are led to believe.......................... Who is leading them? You made that up, I know. A fake person is leading who knows. Had you not been so prideful, I would not even be here.

As for hell,No I don't believe in eternal torture

You don't believe in Hell or Eternal Punishment? I figured as much since your the type to twist scripture at the root......... Can you even explain why you don't believe in eternal punishment........... Or you called that Torture...
Yes, that is right you changed it. Sin is not sin, and we just put a different slant on it. We won't get into this belief I suspected far more wrong with you and I was right.

If you don't know that the antichrist is satan,you want get it,but thats not my problem...Anyway what does he do when he gets here

If I don't know........... John said there are many Antichrist in the World...... Must be many Satan's then. If I don't know......... I am trying to help you, wake up. You posted me REV 12 which I figured is the one you twisted before you posted it.

Michael is nowhere kicking out Satan or any Antichrist. He fought against the devil and there was no more place found for the Devil. We just make up the rest, right? No scripture saying that Satan is the Antichrist, Not one, you just made that up then accuse me of not knowing it??? How stupid is that? The scripture never said "WHO" cast him out.
Not one scripture here mentions Antichrist, Not one scripture denoting a Antichrist, son of perdition, end time bad guy will try to portray any character named Jesus Christ. I already figured you were taking Rev 12 and just making stuff up.

Jesus warned beware of those that Claim to be Christ........................That is someone anointed or claiming to be.

2Co_11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

It's those that claim to be of God with the Power of God. Jesus words, not mine, yet I guess You think Jesus is lying because according to your world it is Satan the Antichrist who goes around telling people he is Jesus................ No scripture to back that up, but does not stop you from posting it on a open forum removing any credibility you might have had. We just don't make stuff up!!!!

SO..........

Not one scripture waring that someone will come to say they are Jesus Christ when they are not............... Not one scripture saying the Spirit of the Antichrist will claim to be Jesus Christ as that spirit denies the Father and Son. ZERO!!!!

Apostasy (/əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία (apostasia), 'a defection or revolt') is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. One who commits apostasy (or who apostatises) is known as an apostate.

Nice you Give me the English Verb definition. I told you that dictionaries like Strongs, Thayers, NEC are dictionaries. They give the Word in reference to how the Word might have been used in the scriptures to help clarify. Sometimes they do a good Job, sometimes they mess it up royally.

There also is just the Greek studies of the Word itself without giving meaning according to usage. This is what I gave you and it's strongs.

Also I already told you a Female noun can not define itself but you don't know the difference between a noun, verb or anything. I suspect you did not do will in English class. I even gave you the two compound Greek Words that make up Apostasia, and gave you the Verb had the Holy Spirit meant the church leaving the truth.

You still did not get it.................

You also did not provide any other scripture that the Church will deflect from the Truth, since the Greek article is about "Us Gathering together with Jesus" You gave zero other scripture references. Let me give you a scripture reference.

Mat_16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Eph_5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Eph_5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

I guess Jesus in your mind just could not keep his Church together, they all deflected from the truth and the Gates of hell must have prevailed............ You lied against Jesus.. Not good.

Not much else to do here, your confused, you lie, you twist scriptures, and you refuse instruction. You don't even believe in Hell or eternal punishment. JW's believe that, right in with their group.

Mat_25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

2Th_1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Rev_14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Nothing else to do here when your just making stuff up and can't get instruction.

And if this passage points to some final rapture event, why would God then send strong delusion so that they would believe a lie, because they had not the love of the truth in them?

Blessings .......... If you look at the passage of the mystery of Iniquity he that let's (It's continued operation) will let until He be taken. Paul's whole reference was to the coming of the Lord Jesus and our gathering unto Him. He is talking about Jesus and Jesus removing his Body (Us) once we are out of the way of Satan (The anointed church) then there is no more light in the world.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

This is what Jesus said........

Mat_24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Once the anointed Church is gone, then all restraints on sin are taken off. God is only sending it to those that did not receive our message, the victorious Church gave.

Near the end, people will wonder where is Jesus and when Is he coming. Lots of things are lined up but no Jesus.

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

So we have a bunch of people that say all things are just the same, nothing has changed.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God has given the Earth a space of time to hear the Word (Gospel) and repent. When the Lord comes for the Church, it's over.................

So that is why God sends the delusion as it's only sent to those that rejected the truth and after the light and truth are removed. Sin will no longer be restrained. Satan can operate at full Angelic power once God's anointed is out of the way.

Blessings.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

I can see like JLB your having issues with Greek words. This is the correct translation of that since "Falling away" has thrown you. WEB: 2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction, 2Th 2:1 Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to him, we ask you

apostasy = means departing or turning away from a faith or religion.

Apostasy (/əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία (apostasia), 'a defection or revolt') is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. One who commits apostasy (or who apostatises) is known as an apostate. The term apostasy is used by sociologists to mean renunciation and criticism of, or opposition to, a person's former religion, in a technical sense and without pejorative connotation.
The term is occasionally also used metaphorically to refer to renunciation of a non-religious belief or cause, such as a political party, brain trust, or a sports team.
Apostasy is generally not a self-definition: very few former believers call themselves apostates because of the pejorative implications of the term.
Many religious groups and some states punish apostates. Apostates may be shunned by the members of their former religious group[1] or subjected to formal or informal punishment. This may be the official policy of the religious group or may be the action of its members. Certain churches may in certain circumstances excommunicate the apostate, while some religious scriptures demand the death penalty for apostates.


Never is this word used they way you have twisted it.


I don't have a problem with Greek words Brother Mike.


I do have a problem trusting people who twist Greek words that completely twist and pervert the meaning of scripture.


I love you Brother Mike.


I don't love the way you "interpret" the Greek.



JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Apostasy (/əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία (apostasia), 'a defection or revolt') is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion

You just Gave me the English verb where we Got the Word Apostasy.

I do have a problem trusting people who twist Greek words that completely twist and pervert the meaning of scripture.

apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: defection, apostasy
Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.

It's not that you don't like the way I interpret the Greek. No, that is not it. The problem is this verse is a key verse to a post or pre trib rapture. If I am right, you whole threory about Post trib is wrong just on this one verse. You have no choice but to make this a Verb and not a Female noun that it is.

I told you already a Female noun can't define itself and hence why it's a female noun in the Greek. It means to depart from a previous standing. The Verb part used 15 times and only 3 times to depart from faith or true things. However the Verb part just means an action of leaving or departing away, it does not mean deflection from what is true. There is another Greek Verb used that denotes that.

So that is you issue, you don't want your Post Trib Doctrine smashed, it's not me and the Greek. Above is the Dictionary of the Greek Word Apostasia.

James strong.......... Apostasia (Dictionary definition) defection, apostasy, revolt.

This definition was taken from Acts as a reference. They Apostasia Moses or they forsake moses. They were with Moses and left. The male noun Moses denotes what they left from as Apostasia can't determine from what it departed from at all. It just means depart from a previous position.

JLB, it's not possible a female noun defines itself with an action. The Greek is just not like that at all. This is where I am not the one confused and your not confused, the issue is this one verse means you have to change some thinking on things. Your not ready to do that yet. I get it.

Strongs Actual meaning Greek study. You know there is a difference from Dictionary and Greek Word study right? Strongs general and Thayer are both Greek dictionaries. Thayer's is geared to match the book of Discipline and it's beliefs. I am sure you know that already so we have doctrine embedded in both dictionary's. A Greek word study is just that, it looks at the actual word and compound words to understand the meaning.

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

That is what the Word means, to leave a previous standing. It's the way it was used in Acts and used in Thess. This is the Greek Study part and no Greek scholar will say different. There is nothing in it's compounds that denote any deflection from what is true. Paul never said the church would deflect, and there is not one scripture that says that.

Christ presents himself a glorious church, not a Church full of Apostasy as the Article is (The coming together of all believers) Well, all the believers don't come together if there is a mass Apostasy...

I don't love the way you "interpret" the Greek.

Like I said, It's not that I am misusing the Greek word here. A female noun is a female noun is a female noun. Nothing in it's compound or the Word itself denotes any Church apostasy. Paul just said Falling away. You have to add that it's the church in apostasy, Paul meant the church and nothing ties that to the article anyway. You have to make that all up and add that because you want a Post trib position.

However, I am not picking on you.

n2thelight has taken the Greek and twisted it beyond repair. He has made up things that are not there, He has twisted the scripture to remove eternal punishment which I suspected before he told me (Read the Post) as anyone of his "TYPE" would do who does not know a Greek Adjective from a noun from a verb. I am sure he failed English as the basic concept of these things are not found in his writings.

So, I was not looking at you, I am looking at n2thelight He is the one that got my attention by his prideful comment.

Like I said, you have no choice but to change the noun into a verb then add Paul was talking about the Church coming apart when Jesus said the gates of Hell does not prevail. You have to do that or you have to change your position on post trib. Me, I don't care if it's post or pre. I have the victory anyway you look at it, I do care about how we look at words and we don't change the rules of a Greek language or switch verbs (Such as the English verb Apostasy) for a Noun. We just don't do that.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

It's not that you don't like the way I interpret the Greek. No, that is not it. The problem is this verse is a key verse to a post or pre trib rapture.

That is why Pre trib people must find a way to twist this scripture to, spin it into something that would make the Obama "spin" doctors blush.

People will fall away from the faith.

People will be lured away by the "signs" and wonders that is being "worked" by the man of sin.

People will flock to him is droves. WHY?

I'm glad you asked brother.

The context of 2 Thessalonians 2 tell us the answer.

And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

And this is the nail in the coffin -


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


Brother, this scripture teaches us the Lord will destroy the lawless one with the brightness of His Coming.

Verse 1 - Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

Verse 8 - And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.


The brightness of His Coming.

He will destroy this man of sin, this lawless one by the brightness of His Coming.

There is nothing in 2 Thessalonians 2 that is invisible.

The same Coming of the Lord where the Church is gathered is the same Coming of the Lord that destroys the Lawless one.

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

After the tribulation of those days...


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Now who is this "son of perdition"? It is none other than Satan himself! “Perdition†means to "perish", to "die". Satan is the only entity that has been condemned to death by name

I think, that the term "son of perdition" does not only describe satan himself. Judas was also called by Jesus "the son of perdition" in John 17:12 .

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

It you have something to add to this, then please share.

So my contention is that it is just as likely if not more likely that the "Lawless One/Man of Sin/Son of Perdition" was representative of the individuals or the movement that was to be the great falling away and collectively they were the Lawless One/son of perdition, etc. that had to be revealed and purged from Jesus' body before Jesus himself would be revealed to gather his elect and take vengeance on those that persecuted His body as it is that this text speaks of an endtime Antichrist.

 

[Deborah13]

Apostasia is not a verb, it is a female noun. It means to depart from a previous standing. Depart from what?

Why do rapturist want it to mean a falling away from the earth? As you say, there is no description as to what the falling away is from. There would need to be something like a prepositional phrase that would describe it. Much like in Daniel were it says " the people, of the prince to come". Or in your door example, " I opened the door." Which door? "I opened the door, with the sign that says Cowgirls."

So to be understood in it's purest definition, it means to defect from a belief of some kind.

So what I personally would have liked to interpret it as would be to fall away from pagan beliefs into believing in Christ, which would mean a revival. I would find that to be very pleasing, to my liking. But alas...

You ignored how the Word was used in Acts..............................WHY???

I would seriously Not ignore how it is used in Acts, as it describes the very purest sense the word and the only other scripture where it is used in this form. "to forsake Moses". This phrase clearly describes the teaching spoken of in the sentence and what they say was being taught was "forsaking the teaching of Moses" or departing from it. "Apostasy" from the teachings of Moses.

So for this word to say to me that it is used to mean a Physical departure from something, I would have to see it used in that way.

If we say let scripture interpret scripture and there are only two that use this word and one of those two is very clear as to how the word is being used, then I would think that the only other use would be, being used in the same way. Rather than trying to squeeze out a totally different definition of the word.



As for G2476, histemi, stand. In scripture this word is used in both senses. It used to mean to physically stand, sit, etc. It is also used in many scriptures to mean to "stand" in faith or to establish faith. 2 Corinthians 1:24 , 2Corinthians 13:1 , Ephesians 6:11-14 three times, etc.

Why do you want to make Apostasia a verb? Why do you Ignore simple Greek language?

No apostasia, in this usage is not a verb, it is a condition of a person or group of persons. It is not an act that is performed as in run, jump, etc.

 

[Brother Mike]

Why do rapturist want it to mean a falling away from the earth? As you say, there is no description as to what the falling away is from. There would need to be something like a prepositional phrase that would describe it. Much like in Daniel were it says " the people, of the prince to come". Or in your door example, " I opened the door." Which door? "I opened the door, with the sign that says Cowgirls."

So for this word to say to me that it is used to mean a Physical departure from something, I would have to see it used in that way.

Deborah, I am targeting n2thelight because of pride, the denial of an eternal hell where those that reject Jesus are punished, His making stuff up with no scripture to support his belief and the fact We have post, pre and it's all past views present. I am not taking any position.

I would seriously Not ignore how it is used in Acts, as it describes the very purest sense the word and the only other scripture where it is used in this form. "to forsake Moses". This phrase clearly describes the teaching spoken of in the sentence and what they say was being taught was "forsaking the teaching of Moses" or departing from it. "Apostasy" from the teachings of Moses.

I never said you and just once again wonder why you want to pull my chain so I come out of the dog house and sniff around to see how it was. I think you and I discussed Greek Female nouns and no, they can't be verbs. You told me that Faith is a Greek Female noun and Pistis is just that.

I can say I have faith!!!! Faith in what though? It could be Bubba the belly God, it could be faith it might rain. Being a female noun it needs the male noun after or defined in the article because Female nouns don't describe themselves, what action they take, or even where they are located. A door is a Greek female noun and unless you say what wall (Male noun) or what building with what door on the side then it remains unknown to what door or what you have faith in.

The Word Literately just means to depart from a previous position. That is all the Word means and depart from what? Who knows. The compound was used 15 times to depart or leave something.

Histemi means to stand, so to depart from a standing. Once again we need it defined for us what it departed from.

No apostasia, in this usage is not a verb, it is a condition of a person or group of persons. It is not an act that is performed as in run, jump, etc.

That was my point, it's not a verb, the Holy Spirit did not use a verb which would have been needed if Paul was referring to someone deflecting from the truth. Even if the Post trib camp had their verb they still need the Adjective, or noun to define the verb. It's not there either, but a noun was used so no point.

parapiptō
par-ap-ip'-to
VERB:
From G3844 and G4098; to fall aside, that is, (figuratively) to apostatize: - fall away.

n2thelight Wants us to believe that it is a verb and that verb is connected with the action. He takes the Greek dictionaries which are just definitions of how words are possibly used in their context and not the Study notes part of the Word to prove something he just made up, then he tells us Hell is not real as there is no eternal punishment. (Which I figured already and posted it before he mentioned it since he ignores Greek language and understanding) You just make Aionious a noun and BAM, no eternal punishment. It's not a noun.............

Then He tells us that Michael Kicked Satan out of Heaven which is the Antichrist and we know by John that Antichrist is many and not a person but a type of spirit. All this with ZERO scriptural support which means he just made that up also.

I am not trying to mess with JLB or you Deborah.

Thank you for the Word study. I appreciate your diligence. I am not here supporting a pre-trib. I posted no scriptures to defend it, I am calling out someone who came in with make believe and pride.

Mike.

 

[reba]

Deborah, I am targeting n2thelight because of pride, the denial of an eternal hell where those that reject Jesus are punished, His making stuff up with no scripture to support his belief and the fact We have post, pre and it's all past views present. I am not taking any position.

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

Not necessarily directed at the last poster.

 

[Brother Mike]

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

Not necessarily directed at the last poster.

I get the feeling that it was directed at the last poster feeling here. We can't let the preaching that there is no hell or eternal punishment can we?

As always, I will tone it down, thank you for the reminder. I guess getting irritated and the "NO HELL" thing is not needed.

Blessings as always.

Mike.


reba says thanks

 

[JLB]

So my contention is that it is just as likely if not more likely that the "Lawless One/Man of Sin/Son of Perdition" was representative of the individuals or the movement that was to be the great falling away and collectively they were the Lawless One/son of perdition, etc.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

the man of sin - Not the men of sin.

the son of perdition - Not the sons of perdition.

who opposes and exalts himself - Not themselves.

so that he sits as God in the temple of God - Not they sit as God.

showing himself that he is God. - Not showing themselves.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

that he may be revealed in his own time. - Not they may be revealed.


7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

And then the lawless one will be revealed - Not the lawless one's.

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,


the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders. - Not the lawless one's.


This is a man, that is an imposter of the Messiah.



JLB

 

[JLB]

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

Not necessarily directed at the last poster.

I get the feeling that it was directed at the last poster feeling here. We can't let the preaching that there is no hell or eternal punishment can we?

As always, I will tone it down, thank you for the reminder. I guess getting irritated and the "NO HELL" thing is not needed.

Blessings as always.

Mike.


reba says thanks

I'm with you on this Brother Mike.

There is a hell, and it has fire.


JLB

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

JLB

I can see how you would reach the conclusion in post 31 you declared based on reading 2 Thes 2:1-9. It's not until I read this passage and included verses 10-12 that I got an inkling that the 'HE' could potentially be representative of the THEY that had fallen away and were trying to lead others away. The tense of the passage seems to sift from a singular to a plural tense in verses 9-12 as "The Lawless One" is further described. I'm not convinced enough to be dogmatic about my conclusion, but at this point I think it may have about as much merit as the other conclusions I will list below.

Who this "Lawless One" is or was is debateble. Many think it is an endtime antichrist while others claim it was a 1st century figure like Nero or Titus, and still others stand by the idea that it represents the Papacy. Another option that is not discussed is the idea that this individual is not an individual but is the personification of 1st century Judaizers that had formerly believed and later began attempting to corrupt the saints by speaking against Jesus being the Christ and exhaulting their religion and the Temple that was its religious centerpiece. These lawless ones could have been saved had they held to the truth of the gospel but instead they loved what was false and God then allowed them to be led astray to face His judgement at the revealing of Jesus, His Anointed.


2 Thessalonians 1:4-2:12 would appear to be able to be summerized as follows:

In the above text Paul begins by championing the endurance and faith the Thessalonions exhibited through their persecutions. He tells them that God would repay the ones persecuting them and at the same time would provide the Thessalonians saints with relief. This would all happen when Jesus was to be revealed in glory taking vengeance on those that aren't obeying the gospel of Christ.
In chp 2 Paul then clarifies some things about the appearance of Jesus discussed in chp 1. He tells the Thessalonians that there are some signs to look for before this appearance occurs. He told them there would be a great turning away from the faith and that the man of sin/lawless one would be revealed first. This Man of Sin was said to be one that would seat himself in the holy place of God and claim the status of a god for himself. This "Lawless One" is said to be holding back the revealing of Jesus and is said to have been already mysteriously at work holding everything back at the time of Paul's writing. This "Lawless One" according to verse 7, was in the midst of the brethren but apparently hidden or working in secret at opposing the truth of the gospel. Once this "Lawless One" was no longer in the midst of the brethren, it appears that that would clear the way for Jesus to be revealed and Jesus would arrive at the revelation of the "Lawless One" to do away with him and bring him to nothing. This entity is said to have been empowered not by God but instead by the Satan to apparently stand against the gospel and deceive the elect.

 

[Brother Mike]

I'm with you on this Brother Mike.

There is a hell, and it has fire.

Part of what I read....

As for hell,No I don't believe in eternal torture

It's not righteous judgment by those that reject the Gospel and the Free Gift of Grace in our Lord Jesus. NO, It's called torture which would denote being unjust and wrong. God prolongs the end in hopes the Word has opportunity to reach every ear, has grace upon grace and where sin is most rampart, God just imparts more grace. That is unjust?

Man, if I tell you don't climb that tree and you climb the tree when I am at work and break your leg after the long fall down then you won't get much sympathy from me. Disobedience can't be rewarded.

Post trib Pre trib.......... ya, we have a seven year difference here and meet up anyway. A eternity of being off though and to remove the judgment of the Lord, that can't be fixed.

I even explained what these people do before n2thelight even makes his declaration just to give him a clue and it was ignored. He went there anyway despite my showing him.

To remove Hell, you have to take the Greek Word aiōnios and make it anything but a Greek Adjective. A Greek Adjective carries it's own definition unless redefined by something else in the Article. Unless defined it keeps it's original definition.

Phm 1:15 For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever; (AIONIOS)

While still alive and able you receive him. Like wait (AIONIOS) until I get back. The word means forever and ever and ever unless something else stops it. In this scripture it stops when they return and are received.

To remove eternal punishment (AIONIOS punishment) you have to lie and say the Word is a Greek noun like it's root AION. Aion means age with a end. The Greek expression with two Aions "EIS Aion Aion" would be age on top of age forever as used in Revelation.

Aion is a Male noun and can define itself without the help of the Greek Article.

Just rambling............ Thank you JLB....

"The Lawless One" is further described. I'm not convinced enough to be dogmatic about my conclusion, but at this point I think it may have about as much merit as the other conclusions I will list below.

One thing that I admire is that like me, you take every single word of scripture and it means something to you. You just don't read a passage and throw your spin on it, it must be exact and precise to the letter.

The question about an end time bad guy seems pretty clear in Paul's writings with some very dramatic events. There is lots of misinformation also, like the left behind series has the two wittiness opposing this Antichrist but I can't find that anywhere in chapter 11 myself, in fact a beast comes out of a pit and kills them. One would think this Antichrist would have been a man and not some beast crawling out of some pit. It could be John using spiritual talk but not conclusive enough for me.

I think in these situations it's best to check our spirit and the Holy Spirit and goes with what "Sounds right" and what we have peace about.

Blessings..

Mike.

 

[Deborah13]

That was my point, it's not a verb, the Holy Spirit did not use a verb which would have been needed if Paul was referring to someone deflecting from the truth. Even if the Post trib camp had their verb they still need the Adjective, or noun to define the verb. It's not there either, but a noun was used so no point.

Yes if he were referring to someone falling away from the truth. But he is not, he is actually using the word more like a proper noun, how do we know? Because of the article 'a' in the singular. And because the 'falling away' IS the subject of the sentence. There are no persons in the sentence to refer the 'falling away' to. The 'falling away' IS what is coming.

It's also interesting that in Acts we have two words that seem to be closely related. The words that Luke used.
Acts 4:2 NASB
2 being greatly disturbed because they were teaching the people and proclaiming [a]in Jesus the resurrection (anastasin) from the dead.
Acts 21:21
21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasian) Moses....

ana = G303 = upward (preposition)
apo = G575 = from, away from (preposition)

anastasis = G386 = a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Short Definition: a rising again, resurrection
Definition: a rising again, resurrection.

apostasia= G646 = defection, revolt​

Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: defection, apostasy
Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.


stasis = G4714 = USED 9 times in the NT

stasis: standing, place, dissension​

Original Word: στάσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: stasis
Phonetic Spelling: (stas'-is)
Short Definition: standing, place, dissension
Definition: an insurrection, dissension; originally: standing, position, place.
http://biblesuite.com/greek/4714.htm

I think Luke was very clear about the difference between a resurrection and a forsaking.
Paul used the same word 'anastasis' for resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:13.

None of this in anyway rules out the 'snatching away' in 1 Thess. 4:17. Only that it appears to be very obvious that there will be a 'falling away' from something that once was stood in, before a revealing of the man of lawlessness. AND because of this apostasy God sends a 'strong delusion'. That can't be good.

I do NOT believe this is a defection of true believers but of those who are attending church for other reasons than believing the truth of Christ and His work.
v 10 YLT
10 and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved,
11 and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,
12 that they may be judged --

 

[JLB]

One thing that I admire is that like me, you take every single word of scripture and it means something to you. You just don't read a passage and throw your spin on it, it must be exact and precise to the letter.

Thats good Brother Mike.

How about this word.

Lets be real and honest about this word APOSTATE.

apostate [əˈpɒsteɪt -tɪt]n a person who abandons his religion, party, cause, etc.

adj guilty of apostasy

Here are some sysnonyms for the word APOSTATE.

Synonyms for apostate

• n traitor

• backslider
• defector
• deserter

• dissenter
• heretic
  

• turncoat

An APOSTATE is someone who commits APOSTASY -


Apostasy (/əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία (apostasia), 'a defection or revolt') is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. One who commits apostasy (or who apostatises) is known as an apostate.




I don't find anything about this word that is associated with something good.


I don't find any reason God would want to Rapture the APOSTATES to heaven.


This what what you are trying to convince us, by your "interpretation" of 2 Thessalonians 2:3




3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition...


falling away =
Apostasia1:513,88Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechap-os-tas-ee'-ah Noun Feminine Definition

1. a falling away, defection, apostasy

An Apostate commits apostasy.




Your "interpretation" of this verse has now been BUSTED AS A MYTH.


You brother are trying to propagate a "MYTH".




JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

I do NOT believe this is a defection of true believers but of those who are attending church for other reasons than believing the truth of Christ and His work.

Good, but Apostasia just means to depart, Being a female noun it gets from what from the subject of the Article........ Coming together with Christ.

It's like me saying Deborah, I will take you to the zoo, however young lady there will be no departure before you clean your room. The understood subject is going to the zoo and defines the Word departure.

Here are some sysnonyms for the word APOSTATE.

Here are some sysnonyms for the word APOSTATE.

You got to be kidding Me JLB.............Your grab a English Word then say it's related to the ancient Greek Word which means depart from a previous standing and slam them together........ Brother, you can do better!!!! English??

First we got the Word Apostate from the Latin Word apostata, which got it from aphistēm (Leave) Apo (from something) histēmi (I stand here, or standing)

So you prove your point from English , taken from the Latin which got it from 3 Greek Words?

I was born at night, but not last night. Good try though. I Good step you made though, Apostate is a noun ............... At least your catching on a little bit.

An Apostate commits apostasy.

a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle.
synonyms: dissenter, defector, deserter, traitor, backslider, turncoat; More

yep, It sure does mean that.

Acts 21:21
21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasian) Moses....

I get the Word Apostasia for this, what are you using here? It's all based on the Greek Word.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing (aphistēmi) from the living God.

Luk 2:37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed (aphistēmi) not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

The Verb in which this Female noun came from means to depart in it's action form. This is why many believe the Female noun could not possibly carry it's own meaning of departing from truth, or apostasy. Nothing in the verb form denotes this.

Ancient Greek writings found used Apostasia to move away from government or just to leave from a place.

However, If you believe in a Post trib rapture, then it don't matter what the Greek says, we have to take the English Verb Apostasy because if we don't it messes up our whole doctrine. That presents other problems because being a Verb, Paul never mentioned who went away from the truth, never mentioned the whole church going away from the truth but did say Jesus will present himself a glorious church without spot or wrinkle.

Post trib folks don't believe Jesus can pull that off.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

You got to be kidding Me JLB.............Your grab a English Word then say it's related to the ancient Greek Word which means depart from a previous standing and slam them together........ Brother, you can do better!!!! English?? First we got the Word Apostate from the Latin Word apostata, which got it from aphistēm (Leave) Apo (from something) histēmi (I stand here, or standing) So you prove your point from English , taken from the Latin which got it from 3 Greek Words? I was born at night, but not last night. Good try though. I Good step you made though, Apostate is a noun ............... At least your catching on a little bit.

Apostasy is committed by an Apostate.

Without an apostate, there is no Apostasy.

Without a human being, there is no apostasy.

Without a human who is an apostate, the is no apostasy.

There must be an apostate person committing the act of apostasy, for there to be APOSTASY.

The good news for you, however is, you can get a high paying job at the White house as an Obama spin doctor.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I get the Word Apostasia for this, what are you using here? It's all based on the Greek Word. Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing (aphistēmi) from the living God. Luk 2:37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed (aphistēmi) not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

Unfortunatelyfor you, the word in question is not Aphistemi1:512,88 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speechaf-is'-tay-mee Verb Definition

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

But rather -

Apostasia1:513,88 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech ap-os-tas-ee'-ah Noun Feminine Definition

1. a falling away, defection, apostasy

Myth Busta BUSTED!




JLB

 

[n2thelight]

@Mike,my whole point to you was,that apostasy means a departure from truth,and not from the earth,as you used it......

Here is your response

No, the Greek word is Apostasia, it's a female noun and can't denote falling away from any truth. A female noun can't define itself in the Greek. It's made of two compound words Apo and hestmi. It means to leave a previous standing from something. Strongs, thayer are Greek dictionaries to give a word a context in connection with how the Word was used.

It was used first in Acts.................. They forsake (Apostasia) Moses Teachings.

Here the female noun Is connected to the male noun (Moses) They departed from Moses by which they previously stood.

A Greek Female noun can not act as one of the 4 Greek verbs. It can't define itself at all. Apostasia does not mean deflection from what is true. Here is the actual real Greek meaning.

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

The whole Greek article is about the coming of the Lord Jesus for us. We depart first, then the son of perdition is revealed. Nowhere in Paul's writings had Paul ever mentioned some deflection of truth from the Church. Paul never said that, it's made up by the post trib camp and it's shameful.

http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/2Th 2.6

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Paul just told us, the Church is in the way, and the gates of Hell can not prevail. We have to leave so the light of the world is gone.

http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/2Th 2.6http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/2Th 2.6http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/2Th 2.6

Yet when Deborah,corrected you on it,you pretend to not mean what you said,and by the way thanks Deborah,I don't claim to be a greek scholar,however I do know where to find the truth......

As for hell,again no I don't believe in eternal torture,and yes I shall use that word again,my question to you is,what part of death don't you understand,as in the second death,which is the death of the soul....As this is off topic I shall leave it alone,believe as you will,but should you want to discuss it,it's on the board somewhere......

Now I'll get back to why I started this thread..........