Rapture and the Second Coming

[n2thelight]

All the Same Event?

There are also some who use other Bible passages to try and claim that there is a secret rapture of the Church but careful examination of these passages also reveal that they are also speaking of the same event. The following tables help illustrate that the glorious second coming of Christ in all cases is not speaking of a secret rapture. Comparing point by point in table format, we can observe that the following two chapters are referring to the same event. Please observe the perfect parallels below.
1 Thessalonians 4

1 Corinthians 15

Thess 4:16 - the Lord Himself shall come Corint 15:23 - are Christ’s at His coming 4:14 - sleep 15:51 - sleep 4:16 - shout, voice, trump 15:52 - the trumpet shall sound 4:16 - dead in Christ shall rise first 15:52 - dead shall be raised

Now compare 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 and Matthew 24 with the above events since some believe that Matthew 24 is talking about the glorious second coming of Christ which they claim is a different event to the above chapters which they erroneously claim to be a secret rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4 and 5

Matthew 24

4:15 - coming (Parousia) 24:27 - coming (Parousia)4:17 - clouds 24:30 - clouds 4:16 - shout, voice trump 24:31 - sound of a trumpet 4:17 - caught up together 24:31 - gather together 5:1 - times and seasons 24:36 - day or hour 5:2 - a thief 24:43 - a thief 5:3 - sudden destruction 24:39 - took them all away 5:6 - watch 24:42 - watch

As you can see, there is no doubt these are the same event as they not only perfectly parallel each other but are even in the same order. It is called the second coming of Christ because that is what it is. There is not a third coming and the theory of a secret rapture and a second chance to be taken is a doctrine from our adversary to have us left behind.
1 Thessalonians 4

Matthew 24

1 Corinthians 15

Jesus comingJesus comingAt His comingTrumpetTrumpetLast trumpDead saints raisedAngels gather saintsDead saints raisedLiving saints caught upAngels gather saintsLiving saints changedComing in the cloudsComing in the cloudsNot mentioned

In the Twinkling of an Eye?

What event was Paul referring to when he wrote, “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...” 1 Corinthians 15:52.

Once again there are those who try to apply this to Christians suddenly disappearing in what they call the rapture. The theory is that this verse is saying that in less than the time it takes to blink that true Christians will be raptured away before the Tribulation and the coming of the Antichrist. But is this what Paul meant or is this one of the many “fables” (see 2 Timothy 4:4) taught as in these last days?

Reading the entire passage reveals the real truth that Paul was trying to convey in easy to understand words, “Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.


The following facts provide the real truth:

1. Paul says this takes place “at the last trump,” and not seven years before.
2. At this time “the trumpet shall sound.” Hence it will be quiet but VERY loud!
3. Paul did not say it was the return of Christ that happens in the twinkling of an eye.
4. He says it is the changing of the bodies of true believers from mortality to immortality.
5. So 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 is not teaching the sudden disappearance of Christians at all but the LOUD return of Christ when the final trumpet sounds and at the “instant” true believers put on immortality at the end of this world.

Do we go through the Great Tribulation?

The question should be is when have God's people ever escaped tribulation. From Genesis to Revelation all God's children have always gone through tribulation. If you search for the word tribulation in the New Testament, you will find that almost every reference is about what Christians go through, rather than what they escape from.
The Apostle John said, “These things I have spoken unto you, that in me you might have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.” (John 16:33)

Paul told Christians, “We through much tribulation must enter the kingdom of God.” (Acts 14:22)
And God’s faithful people “came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” (Revelation 7:14) They did not escape tribulation but endured through it and were purified.
We also find in Revelation that when Jesus returns unexpectedly as a thief at His second coming that the angels have just finished pouring out the sixth plague upon those who received the mark of the beast. So this also reveals that we are here during the tribulation. God’s faithful ones who did not get the mark of the beast are of course protected from the plagues. “And the sixth angel poured out his vial (sixth plague) upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.” (Revelation 16:12, 15)
And what about the elect described in the passage below? The elect are the true and faithful believers and Jesus assured us that the time of tribulation will be shortened or no one would survive. There would of course be no need for the great tribulation period to be shortened if His people were already in heaven now would there?

Matthew 24:21-22 “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

Note what Paul said about going through tribulation in Romans 5:3-4 “And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope.”

So Paul states that times of tribulation build strength and character. It is Satan that desires to impede this by having us focus on escaping trouble and persecution instead of preparing to go through persecution even to the point of death. When soft Christians are confronted with end time persecution, Satan will be ecstatic as he will watch these soft Christians all fall like dominoes. Once again the lies of Satan will have been successful if we are not prepared.
Jesus said to His church, “I know your works and tribulation…” (Revelation 2:9) And again Jesus said to His church, “YOU shall have tribulation…” (Revelation 2:10)

So the Biblical evidence reveals that Christians have always gone through tribulation and that we will all endure tribulation until the very end. However, we do not need to fear what man can do as Christ promised in Matthew 28:20, “Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the world.” Did you note that Jesus said until the end, not until tribulation begins?

 

[JLB]

Ancient Greek writings found used Apostasia to move away from government or just to leave from a place. However, If you believe in a Post trib rapture, then it don't matter what the Greek says, we have to take the English Verb Apostasy because if we don't it messes up our whole doctrine. That presents other problems because being a Verb, Paul never mentioned who went away from the truth, never mentioned the whole church going away from the truth but did say Jesus will present himself a glorious church without spot or wrinkle. Post trib folks don't believe Jesus can pull that off.

What is so disturbing about the mindset of Pre tribbers in realation to 2 Thessalonians is, The context from start to finish is about Jesus Coming to gather His people and to destroy the lawless one.

Why try act like a Greek theologian when the big Gorilla in the room is Jesus destroys the Lawless one, who proclaims himself as God.


It doesn't take an college education to realize that if the very source of the great tribulation gets destroyed before it starts, then you won't have a Great Tribulation.

Paul says it as plain as day, Jesus won't Come until the man of sin, the son of perdition, the lawless one is revealed.

Jesus destroys him.

Jesus doesn't come until after the lawless one is revealed.

Jesus destroys him when He Comes.


No Greek words to be twisted.

No lexicon gymnastics.

Just read what Paul wrote.


Jesus returns after the lawless one has done his thing and served his purpose. Then He is destroyed after the tribulation.


Amazing!



JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Ah............... I guess I had this coming as I posted.............

Mike:

Post trib folks don't believe Jesus can pull that off.

So then Mike has to expect a jab back. I get it.

Jesus doesn't come until after the lawless one is revealed.

Jesus destroys him when He Comes.

Amazing!

Hey, I use that!!!!! for people that can read no better than a 5th grader. Now you steal from me??

AMAZING!!!

The problem with this whole statement is that what point am I suppose to counter here? I mean of Course Jesus hands the Bad guys butt to him at the end. We are different because you want to stay around until that happens on earth, I want to be watching on the Big screen in Heaven. Same conclusion just sitting from different places. No arguement here because that would take going back through how many scriptures to not prove to each other that we are staying or leaving.

However........ The church will not fall away, will not apostatize, and The gates of Hell will never stand a chance. What you will see is like the letters to the Churches in Asia Minor. (Turkey) Each church gets corrected and if they don't correct themselves the lights go out............

What appears to be good will soon look gray and more light from the working church is shed on the planet. Even Boy scouts are now full of homosexuals and it was once thought to be good and upstanding.

Besides, lets say Paul messed up and used the English Word Apostasy................................. it's still a verb and Paul never described what my be in Apostasy. Some would like to add "Church" in there for Paul but we don't add to the Word do we, and we don't take one scripture and make a doctrine as Peter tells us. All the rest of the scriptures paint a glorious church where the gates of hell does not and never will prevail.

So the post trib theory on that with scripture comparison will never work out.

I have no idea why you continue to want to hang out for a extra 7 years, just throw in the towel, it's just a small 7 years, no big deal.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

However........ The church will not fall away, will not apostatize, and The gates of Hell will never stand a chance. What you will see is like the letters to the Churches in Asia Minor. (Turkey) Each church gets corrected and if they don't correct themselves the lights go out..........

Now your getting closer to the truth.

The phrase you are looking for is: The Bride has made herself ready.

Daniel says it this way -


Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Daniel 12:10-11

All the rest of the scriptures paint a glorious church where the gates of hell does not and never will prevail.

Brother Mike, for goodness sake can you please read what Paul says here -

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.



for that Day will not come unless the man of sin is revealed...

The Coming of the Lord and the gathering of the Church happens after the false messiah goes to the Temple and proclaims himself as God.

The Coming of the Lord and the gathering of the Church happens after the Abomination of Desolation.

The Coming of the Lord and the gathering of the Church happens after the Tribulation.

The Coming of the Lord and the gathering of the Church happens at the end of the age, when the Lord destroys the man of sin, son of perdition, lawless one, false messiah.

The saints are with Jesus when He returns.

Jesus returns once at the end of the age, after the tribulation, to destroy the antichrist.

There is only one return, and He stays here to reign and rule.


28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

The phrase you are looking for is: The Bride has made herself ready.

I had this talk with Edward............ Who is the Bride? You looking for a Wedding dress bro??? Like, Eeeewwwww.

Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Daniel 12:10-11

Yes, many made white, I bet a whole bunch Go to Hell.................. The problem is that the Church will not Apostatize, I don't go to the church that will do that, I hope you know better than to hang out at dead churches, I know you listen to men of integrity, you gonna switch to the Apostizing Church down the street so your interpretation of Thess comes to pass for you???

You don't have ONE scripture besides "YOUR" understanding of what "falling Away" Means, and even though you have taken a Noun that was Greek and slammed a English Verb in it's place to suite what you want it to say, you have no other scripture to compare or be a witness that the church is going to fall apart, or apostatize.

Mike needs scriptures, and Mike sure don't take just one scripture and make a belief out of it. NEVER......................

What I do have is a page of scriptures where the gates of Hell shall not prevail, Where Paul had great faith that the church would grow and come to the knowledge of the truth, Paul's faith was never that the Church would fail.

The state of the sheep, show the character of the Pastor.

Show me a sinning church, show me a powerless Church, show me a Church that has turned from the truth and has taken up preaching green on the pulpit or Politics and set the Word of God aside and I'll show you a Pastor of Sheep that has no Character and does not know God.

Is that the Church, God forbid for in that I'll show you 10 with powerful and caring Pastors of God following the head Pastor in Honesty, truth and integrity, the Church of the Lord Jesus. Jesus will not fail, the gospel will be preached all over the Word and the end will come. If the Church goes into Apostasy, then the end never comes because nobody got the Gospel out.

Your missing scriptures Brother, your taking one scriptures, adding a Verb when it's a Female Greek noun and have no other supporting scriptures....................WHY??

Because JLB wants to hold on to some Post Trib Doctrine. That is why.

Mike ain't like that................ I'll change my view in seconds if the Lord brings someone and shows me scripture with scripture. I want to believe what the Word says, I could care less about doctrines, and why I spent the last 14 years going over the will of God to heal because it has to be right. I have to deal with scriptures that say God kills and makes alive, I have to deal with Job, I have to deal with God sending sickness on David's child, they have to be understood, and fully explained or it's not God's will to heal. Everything has to line up, everything perfect, not one scriptures misquoted like this person called N2thelight has done.

JLB's View............. Let's have a look.

What JLB does not want the Scripture to read.

WEB:
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

We have to depart with the Lord Jesus then the Son of perdition is revealed. This is not what JLB wants it to say.

What JLB wants the scripture to read:

MSG:
2Th 2:3 Don't fall for any line like that. Before that day comes, a couple of things have to happen. First, the Apostasy. Second, the debut of the Anarchist, a real dog of Satan.

This is what JLB wants the scripture to say. Translating the Greek Female Noun to an English Verb. Straight switch and translation, nothing added...............

However an Apostasy from what?

Who is the ones doing the Apostasy?

Paul does not say because it's not in there. Can't be the ones Gathering together to Jesus because they never Apostatized. Can't be anyone else because the Bible only talks about the glorious church whom Jesus is more than able to present without spot or wrinkle, So Jesus did not fail anywhere. The Gates of Hell never prevailed against the Church, not one time as we are delivered from the Powers of Darkness and have redemption through the blood.

So who the heck is Paul talking about in this great Apostasy?????? Who knows, we have to start making things up at this point.

Best thing to do is find another translation that makes things up they way we want to believe.

NLV:
2Th 2:3 Do not let anyone fool you. For the Lord will not come again until many people turn away from God. Then the leader of those who break the law will come. He is the man of sin.

Ummmm...... bout as close as we can get. No translation says the church as a whole will apostatize. The translations are failing us, best to write a bible called the Post Trib Gospel so that we can get it to say what we want. The homosexuals have their bible, the JW's have theirs and the Catholics have theirs.

2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the [a] apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),(A)

Great predicted falling away................ predicted by whom?? Nobody!!! Seems the Amplified has put in a prophecy that has nothing to back it.

We have a website of people that use to be Christians, it could be once that counter reaches a certain number then God moves with the Antichrist??? God is watching that website, has to be it.

So how many have to turn away from Jesus, what is that number??? Who knows, it's all made up anyway.......

NO, 10,000 churches falling into darkness does not gain favor of God, or move God it's the 2,0000 that still obey him and called the church, the rest fall into the unsaved category and without the unsaved the real churches would not be needed anyway.

So what is the Number JLB???? Mind you we have to add tons to the scripture to even ask that question............... Are you going to join those "Apostasy" churches so that you can help prove your understanding of what Paul said???? I think you might need to because they are gonna need a strong leader in rebellion for God to even consider them.

NO, the goofy, the sinning the dark churches will not effect in any way the glorious church who preaches this gospel all over the World. The Greek word means to depart and you need to change your Post Trib stance.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

Yes, many made white, I bet a whole bunch Go to Hell.................. The problem is that the Church will not Apostatize, I don't go to the church that will do that, I hope you know better than to hang out at dead churches, I know you listen to men of integrity, you gonna switch to the Apostizing Church down the street so your interpretation of Thess comes to pass for you???

Through this process of refining, the true Church will be distinguished from those who profess to know Him.


Jesus returns to gather His people at the end of the age, to stay.

Jesus returns to gather His people, and to destroy the false messiah.

Jesus returns to gather His people, for the resurrection and Rapture to reign and rule here on earth.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Through this process of refining, the true Church will be distinguished from those who profess to know Him.


Jesus returns to gather His people at the end of the age, to stay.

OH..... so some churches don't make it like now? ummmm. That is like saying not everyone gets born again, which we already know. That is what Paul meant, that everyone thought every single Church would be perfect that is what everyone thought, until Paul said a few will not be perfect and Apostatize. There was an illusion that everyone would preach truth, got it. Good thing Paul cleared that up for us, I bet we all thought the whole planet would be saved also...

Wait, some do think that.................... just a mess and broken thinking, some broken thinking that

So since we have to wait for this great Revelation of Paul who should have used the English verb "Apostasy" instead of the Greek Word that meant departure. (Shame on Paul)

What is the number of bad churches that need to be revealed? I can give you a list already but what is the official "God's" number of these churches before we get to see the son of perdition??

Any Post tribber should have this exact number written down somewhere. Right?

Number and scripture to back it saying many churches don't make it.

Give the number and the scripture .................. Else busted and you come on the pre-trib side.

God gives wisdom to those that ask, if you don't have the exact number, go ask God then get back with me of the number of Churches that fail and even if they were truthful churches to began with.

I'll wait.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

Through this process of refining, the true Church will be distinguished from those who profess to know Him.


Jesus returns to gather His people at the end of the age, to stay.

OH..... so some churches don't make it like now? ummmm. That is like saying not everyone gets born again, which we already know. That is what Paul meant, that everyone thought every single Church would be perfect that is what everyone thought, until Paul said a few will not be perfect and Apostatize. There was an illusion that everyone would preach truth, got it. Good thing Paul cleared that up for us, I bet we all thought the whole planet would be saved also...

Wait, some do think that.................... just a mess and broken thinking, some broken thinking that

So since we have to wait for this great Revelation of Paul who should have used the English verb "Apostasy" instead of the Greek Word that meant departure. (Shame on Paul)

What is the number of bad churches that need to be revealed? I can give you a list already but what is the official "God's" number of these churches before we get to see the son of perdition??

Any Post tribber should have this exact number written down somewhere. Right?

Number and scripture to back it saying many churches don't make it.

Give the number and the scripture .................. Else busted and you come on the pre-trib side.

God gives wisdom to those that ask, if you don't have the exact number, go ask God then get back with me of the number of Churches that fail and even if they were truthful churches to began with.

I'll wait.

Mike.

Brother, please use scripture, or phrases that come from scripture.

I know you can do it.


JLB

 

[JLB]

NO, the goofy, the sinning the dark churches will not effect in any way the glorious church who preaches this gospel all over the World. The Greek word means to depart and you need to change your Post Trib stance.

Which category does your church that you go to fit?


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

I get the Word Apostasia for this, what are you using here? It's all based on the Greek Word

Same word, same meaning. The end spelling changes depending on the case in which it is used. In Acts, it is in the accusative case, in Thess. it is in the nominative case. Why? In Acts it is used in a prepositional phrase that modifies the verb. In Thess. it is the subject of the sentence.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/act21.pdf scroll down to v 21 you'll see it.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/act4.pdf scroll to v 2
http://ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/grkindex.htm there are other members here that really understand the Greek, not me, I struggle.

The word 'stasis' also comes from the root word 'histemi'. What changes is the preposition that is added to 'stasis' (stand) that describes the 'stand'. The prep. apo, from, away from added to stand or 'ana', up, upward. An away from stand or an upward stand.

So my point was that like Luke, Paul could have used the word for an upward-stand if that was what he meant. But he did not. What would that word look like in Thess. in the nominative case, 'anastasia'. Like you pointed out correctly, it is not a verb, no action, and like you say it is a noun. By the article 'a' that says to me that Paul is talking about a 'thing', and the the word apostasia is being used like Luke used 'anastasian', the article 'the' pointing to a thing, 'the resurrection', Of coarse this would not always be true 'the girl' 'a girl'.
'a apostasia'. We often will capitalize ' the Resurrection' making it a proper noun. It is also in the singular form.

In 1 Thess. 4:17, Paul must use a verb showing there is action. 'harpagEsometha' which is in the plural form. More than one involved in the action?


I have searched my Greek learning sites and I can't find what you refer to as a feminine noun not being able to define itself?
In English. even though it has become obsolete, we do have nouns that are identified as feminine. They came from Latin and Greek. Take the word 'ship'. Have you ever wondered why a ship's captain will refer to his ship 'she'? Because originally the word ship was feminine. From there we started calling cars 'she', planes 'she'. As he fondly pats his racer says, "she's purring like a kitten" It doesn't change the meaning of the word car or ship, a thing is a thing.

 

[JLB]

The phrase you are looking for is: The Bride has made herself ready.

I had this talk with Edward............ Who is the Bride? You looking for a Wedding dress bro??? Like, Eeeewwwww.

Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Daniel 12:10-11

Yes, many made white, I bet a whole bunch Go to Hell.................. The problem is that the Church will not Apostatize, I don't go to the church that will do that, I hope you know better than to hang out at dead churches, I know you listen to men of integrity, you gonna switch to the Apostizing Church down the street so your interpretation of Thess comes to pass for you???

You don't have ONE scripture besides "YOUR" understanding of what "falling Away" Means, and even though you have taken a Noun that was Greek and slammed a English Verb in it's place to suite what you want it to say, you have no other scripture to compare or be a witness that the church is going to fall apart, or apostatize.

Mike needs scriptures, and Mike sure don't take just one scripture and make a belief out of it. NEVER......................

What I do have is a page of scriptures where the gates of Hell shall not prevail, Where Paul had great faith that the church would grow and come to the knowledge of the truth, Paul's faith was never that the Church would fail.

The state of the sheep, show the character of the Pastor.

Show me a sinning church, show me a powerless Church, show me a Church that has turned from the truth and has taken up preaching green on the pulpit or Politics and set the Word of God aside and I'll show you a Pastor of Sheep that has no Character and does not know God.

Is that the Church, God forbid for in that I'll show you 10 with powerful and caring Pastors of God following the head Pastor in Honesty, truth and integrity, the Church of the Lord Jesus. Jesus will not fail, the gospel will be preached all over the Word and the end will come. If the Church goes into Apostasy, then the end never comes because nobody got the Gospel out.

Your missing scriptures Brother, your taking one scriptures, adding a Verb when it's a Female Greek noun and have no other supporting scriptures....................WHY??

Because JLB wants to hold on to some Post Trib Doctrine. That is why.

Mike ain't like that................ I'll change my view in seconds if the Lord brings someone and shows me scripture with scripture. I want to believe what the Word says, I could care less about doctrines, and why I spent the last 14 years going over the will of God to heal because it has to be right. I have to deal with scriptures that say God kills and makes alive, I have to deal with Job, I have to deal with God sending sickness on David's child, they have to be understood, and fully explained or it's not God's will to heal. Everything has to line up, everything perfect, not one scriptures misquoted like this person called N2thelight has done.

JLB's View............. Let's have a look.

What JLB does not want the Scripture to read.

WEB:
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

We have to depart with the Lord Jesus then the Son of perdition is revealed. This is not what JLB wants it to say.

What JLB wants the scripture to read:

MSG:
2Th 2:3 Don't fall for any line like that. Before that day comes, a couple of things have to happen. First, the Apostasy. Second, the debut of the Anarchist, a real dog of Satan.

This is what JLB wants the scripture to say. Translating the Greek Female Noun to an English Verb. Straight switch and translation, nothing added...............

However an Apostasy from what?

Who is the ones doing the Apostasy?

Paul does not say because it's not in there. Can't be the ones Gathering together to Jesus because they never Apostatized. Can't be anyone else because the Bible only talks about the glorious church whom Jesus is more than able to present without spot or wrinkle, So Jesus did not fail anywhere. The Gates of Hell never prevailed against the Church, not one time as we are delivered from the Powers of Darkness and have redemption through the blood.

So who the heck is Paul talking about in this great Apostasy?????? Who knows, we have to start making things up at this point.

Best thing to do is find another translation that makes things up they way we want to believe.

NLV:
2Th 2:3 Do not let anyone fool you. For the Lord will not come again until many people turn away from God. Then the leader of those who break the law will come. He is the man of sin.

Ummmm...... bout as close as we can get. No translation says the church as a whole will apostatize. The translations are failing us, best to write a bible called the Post Trib Gospel so that we can get it to say what we want. The homosexuals have their bible, the JW's have theirs and the Catholics have theirs.

2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the [a] apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),(A)

Great predicted falling away................ predicted by whom?? Nobody!!! Seems the Amplified has put in a prophecy that has nothing to back it.

We have a website of people that use to be Christians, it could be once that counter reaches a certain number then God moves with the Antichrist??? God is watching that website, has to be it.

So how many have to turn away from Jesus, what is that number??? Who knows, it's all made up anyway.......

NO, 10,000 churches falling into darkness does not gain favor of God, or move God it's the 2,0000 that still obey him and called the church, the rest fall into the unsaved category and without the unsaved the real churches would not be needed anyway.

So what is the Number JLB???? Mind you we have to add tons to the scripture to even ask that question............... Are you going to join those "Apostasy" churches so that you can help prove your understanding of what Paul said???? I think you might need to because they are gonna need a strong leader in rebellion for God to even consider them.

NO, the goofy, the sinning the dark churches will not effect in any way the glorious church who preaches this gospel all over the World. The Greek word means to depart and you need to change your Post Trib stance.

Mike.

All the rambling in the world about Greek words will never change the scripture that says -

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

This scripture teaches us that Jesus comes and gathers His people after the tribulation, just as what Paul says.

The gathering at the Trumpet, the last trumpet.


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I totally disagree with you.
These are the Jews of the tribulation.
As in Revelation 14:12;
"This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus".
These are Jews but you don't see it.
At this point in time, they are the "elect"!

 

[JLB]

I totally disagree with you.
These are the Jews of the tribulation.
As in Revelation 14:12;
"This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus".
These are Jews but you don't see it.
At this point in time, they are the "elect"!

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


Why would Jesus teach His Church leadership privately about something that does not involve them?

Are you suggesting the Church is not the elect that will get gathered?

Paul teaches:


1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonian 2:1-4



for that Day will not come unless... the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,


Simple.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Why would Jesus teach His Church leadership privately about something that does not involve them?

Private???????????????????????????

Joh_17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

That so called private message was printed in a Book JLB, the Same book that Jesus said everyone that shall believe on their Word. It's for everyone that believes........

get a grip there JLB, your slowing down here in the thought process, you know to compare scriptures, but what I think is you hope people are are just dumb so you can conviently just try to slide this stuff to us without getting

MYTH BUSTED!!!!

Seriously, if it was private.............. How the heck you know about it...................................Think about it...........

I have searched my Greek learning sites and I can't find what you refer to as a feminine noun not being able to define itself?
In English. even though it has become obsolete, we do have nouns that are identified as feminine. They came from Latin and Greek. Take the word 'ship'. Have you ever wondered why a ship's captain will refer to his ship 'she'? Because originally the word ship was feminine. From there we started calling cars 'she', planes 'she'. As he fondly pats his racer says, "she's purring like a kitten" It doesn't change the meaning of the word car or ship, a thing is a thing.

I won't take the time to search for that Greek lesson. I should have said Greek Female noun who's verb compound is an action verb can't define it's itself being a female Greek noun (Just a women!!!) unless there is a Male noun the action is connected to in the Article or in the Article before.

That is what I meant to say.

Like faith is a Female Greek noun. It can't on it's own define Faith in what being a Female Greek Noun. It could mean I have faith it's going to rain, I have faith in God.
The Female noun can't define faith in what.

Wife is a Female noun, but it won't denote who's wife..............

In Fact Deborah, A wall is Male, Door Female and Floor neuter. The female can only be found once the Male wall is found, the floor is everywhere and covers wall and doors.

That was what I was trying to say but if you want to get technical, there would need to be 1 of the 4 Greek Verbs instead of any noun to mean deflecting from the truth. There is no verb there and Lots of Greek male and female nouns are made from compound action verbs, the noun itself does not denote what action was taken with what though.

Like faith, faith in who or what? The female noun by itself can't define that.

I hope I made sense but you seem to know more about Crammer than I do, So I will just take your word on it............. (I failed English even...............eeeekkkk)

Mike.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Are you suggesting the Church is not the elect that will get gathered?

I suggest that you misunderstand the Book of Revelation to the point that it is pointless to talk to you about it.

"Good, as it ripens, becomes continually more different not only from evil but from other good". (C.S. Lewis)

We both see different things as being good.
We are like branches of a tree continually growing further away from each other, but we are still part of the same tree.

Romans 14:16;

" Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil".

I do not want you to continue to put my position down nor do I want to do the same to you.

Therefore, it makes sense to drop this conversation.

See you in heaven!

 

[Brother Mike]

I suggest that you misunderstand the Book of Revelation to the point that it is pointless to talk to you about it.

It's about 4 passages in the bible that get him mixed up. Trying to add Action verbs where nouns are, the order of those resurrected and he thinks all Christians keep the sabbath seeing Jesus only coming once in Matt 24.

He thinks that when the 6th seal is released and the Earth grows dark then the 7th seal with 1/2 hour of silence the Grand stage for our Lord Jesus in power and glory through the clouds He thinks that People will be more concerned with plowing their fields in the dark as if they have years left to plant and harvest crops. Not a care or worry in the World despite the stars are missing and the sun is put out.

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Yep, Jesus just comes one time, does not come for the church first, caught up in the air to be with the Lord.

People will be plowing and having a merry good time though most the world lies in ruin.

The best time to work in the field of course is when it's pitch black, and the World is about to end as Mankind knows it. Sure makes me want to get my plow out.

That is what Post Tribbers believe, I suspect it some form of sickness caused by the water they drink. I am trying to pinpoint the area locations of these post tribbers and see if there is a connection to water or some other form of pollution that is scrambling the old brain cells.

There just might be a cure.................... We can only hope...

Mike.

 

[reba]

Bro Mike you sure tend to lump folks into boxes as you see fit.....

That is what Post Tribbers believe, I suspect it some form of sickness caused by the water they drink. I am trying to pinpoint the area locations of these post tribbers and see if there is a connection to water or some other form of pollution that is scrambling the old brain cells.

I am post trib and dont believe things the way you say...

 

[Deborah13]

thinks that when the 6th seal is released and the Earth grows dark then the 7th seal with 1/2 hour of silence the Grand stage for our Lord Jesus in power and glory through the clouds

What about this one....

2 Peter 3 NASB
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” [no one has left the building]

7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and [b]its works will be [c]burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

 

[Brother Mike]

I am post trib and dont believe things the way you say...

It's boiled down to what you have been taught and your core belief. (For the most part, there are exceptions like JLB)

without tons of scriptures....... My core belief is that Satan can not operate unhindered as he does in Revelation with the Anointed Church in the way. You have to take away the light before it can get very dark.

2 Peter 3 NASB
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” [no one has left the building]

That is my point................... Where is His coming?

Once that first trumpet sounds there will be no question things are wrong, very wrong. The Word thief just means strong armed, When that 6th seal is released many will try to hid from the one that is coming.

Matt describes two events........... One event Jesus comes immediately after the tribulation. You can count that down to the last Half our of the 7th seal.

The other Event is like the days of Noah........ Eating and drinking without a clue they are about to be wiped out.

Nobody is saying where is his coming once those monsters come out of the smoking pit and nobody can die for a span of 5 months. You can count the trumpets vials right down to the 7th seal.

When the Lord comes for the church, it will be sudden and unexpected, those servants that call Jesus Lord........ will be taken, one in the field the other at the mill (Daytime and nothing bad expected)

All scriptures must match perfectly. Jesus described two events, the same Paul described about escaping the wrath to come, and Jesus said pray ye be counted worthy to escape all these things. All is all, the trumpets, seals and vials.........

Mike.


Mike.

 

[jeff77]

I have a question relating to the tribulation and I read through the post as best as I could and I don't think anybody has mentioned it yet.

During the tribulation will there be a 2nd chance for unbelievers to be saved? If so, does that mean that every deceased non-believer will come back from the dead and along with the ones alive at the start of the tribulation have a 7 year or however long it may be to become saved?

Im not making this up or anything. I heard a sermon that mentioned a 2nd chance but did not go into detail about it cause that is not what the sermon was actually about.