READ THIS: Knowledge & Belief - The Differences

[Sir Pwn4lot]

This is a huge problem on these forums, people haven't grasped the difference between belief and knowledge. This is a thread explaining them both in an easy to understand way, if I see anyone who doesn't understand either term I'll direct them here.

Belief

This is a good place to start because it's the easiest of the two. Belief is what your opinion or thought content consists of. For example, Christians believe in Christianity, Buddhists believe in Buddhism and so on.

Atheists are the standout group here, Atheism isn't the belief that there is no God, it's the lack of a belief that there is. Whether or not you claim there is no God has nothing to do with your belief, that's a part of knowledge (scroll down for more information). Atheists don't make the positive assertion that there is no God, they just reject the claim that there is.


Knowledge

Knowledge is a summary of what you claim, if you claim you have supernatural knowledge and make a positive assertion then you're Gnostic, if you don't make a positive assertion and don't claim to have supernatural knowledge then you're Agnostic.

For example, Agnostic Atheists don't claim that there isn't a God, but they don't accept the notion that there is one. Gnostic Atheists claim that there is no God (Only a very small percentage of Atheists, I don't know any)


It's possible to combine these terms to show more about your position. For example, I'm an Agnostic Atheist (Don't claim there is no God, don't believe there is). Gnostic Christianity, Agnostic Spirituality, etc.

Please, don't mix these terms lol

 

[JudaicChristian]

I would like to point out that the disbelief in there being a God is a belief. Disbelief is a belief. This too is a matter of faith.

 

[Sir Pwn4lot]

I would like to point out that the disbelief in there being a God is a belief. Disbelief is a belief. This too is a matter of faith.

Lol, I suppose this is a fair place to have a debate. The argument you just made is perhaps my favorite in all of theological philosophy, and for so many reasons hehe.

Atheism isn't a belief, it's the lack of a belief (or rejection of a belief depending on which terminology you prefer). They call it A-Theism for a reason, because the prexix 'A' denotes "not", so Atheism means "Not Theism". This is used throughout the language (amoral, asexual, etc)

Is not-collecting-stamps a hobby? Is something that's amoral moral? Does an asexual organism sexually reproduce?

A belief system requires content. Atheism has no content, no dogma, no doctrine, nothing you have to believe. You've made the false assertion that belief is the default position, which it is not, you are innocent until proven guilty for a reason, because non-belief is the default position. To claim otherwise is to claim that belief in fairies, unicorns, Santa and the Giant Spaghetti Monster is the default position, and you have to actively disprove these things before you can not believe in them.

Furthermore, the same thing would stand for all other religions; so Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Flying-Spaghetti-Monsterism and pretty much any other viewpoint you can think of are all believed until disproven.



What's even more funny is how you try to stoop Atheism to your level as if you think faith is inferior lol. NUH HUH! Atheism IS faith! Take that! As if it's some sort of insult when faith is the only thing that keeps your belief together.

if you have a problem with the definition of the word belief then go make another word, don't warp belief; which already has a definition into what you want it to be, because it doesn't work like that.


Atheism isn't a belief any more than nothing is something, it's the lack of a belief, in the same way that nothing is the absence of something.

 

[JudaicChristian]

There are Atheist organizations, so therefore they are organized. All Atheist "believe" in evolution as a doctrine. All Atheist "believe" there is no God. All Atheist insist on their belief as being described as "disbelief," in an effort to distance themselves from being called a religion. In that way they can use government institutions to promote what they do, and do not believe. In other words, fool the public by changing dictionary terminology. You can cry foul all you want, but I am not so stupid as others to believe you. Terminology in the dictionaries is perverted to control how people communicate. Political correctness is for fooling the slow.

 

[Sir Pwn4lot]

I'll break down what you said part by part, because it was a no-paragraph rant.

There are Atheist organizations, so therefore they are organized.

Yes, but it is not a requirement of being an Atheist to follow them, following the Bible IS a requirement in being a Roman Catholic, therefore it's a doctrine of that belief. Atheism has no dogma because it's not a belief, it's the LACK OF A BELIEF.

It's not a question of whether we're organized, it's a question about what an Atheist is. Simply put, an Atheist is someone who lacks Theism. By definition you only have to not believe in Theism. As a Christian, however, by definition you must be a follower of Christ and his teachings (=dogma).

All Atheist "believe" in evolution as a doctrine.

From Marriam Webster: Atheism - A disbelief in the existence of deity
Christian - One who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus

Do you see ANYWHERE in the definition for Atheism that you must acknowledge the theory of evolution? What were Atheists before evolution came along? Something else?

A doctrine is something required by the definition of the position, since Atheism is simply the rejection of Theism is has no dogma. If religions were numbers Atheism would be 0 and Christianity would be 1.

Evolution isn't a doctrine of Atheism, you don't have to acknowledge it to be an Atheist, therefore your argument is [insert profanity here]

All Atheist "believe" there is no God.

Sigh. Did you even read what was in the first post? THIS IS ABSOLUTE [insert profanity here]. I don't believe there isn't a God, I never said that, I don't believe that there is. Gnostic Atheists who say that THERE IS NO GOD, THEY have a belief, but not those who simply reject all proposed models (Like me, Agnostic Atheists)

If you can't comprehend this after reading the 1st post then you need to see your local General Practitioner.

All Atheist insist on their belief as being described as "disbelief,"

See one segment of this comment up....

in an effort to distance themselves from being called a religion.

Apart from the entire premise of your question being [insert profanity here] you've again tried to stoop Atheism to the level of a religion (As if you think it's a bad thing lol, TAKE THAT! YOU ARE A RELIGION!) I don't mind you calling Atheism a religion, if you want to blatantly defy the definition of words then it's none of my business.

I'm not 'trying' to stop Atheism being called a religion lol, it just isn't by it's very definition, it's the ABSENCE OF RELIGION.

In that way they can use government institutions to promote what they do, and do not believe.

AHA! You said "what they do, and do not believe"

Anyway, it's still unconstitutional for government to endorse Atheism. An Atheistic theocracy is just as bad as a Theistic one. The government is secular, which means that they are entirely impartial to religion, and don't endorse any form of religion or non-religion. I suppose you could say that they are Agnostic (But not Atheistic Agnostics). In this way they say NOTHING about belief, and don't make any religious claim (Agnostic).

THE US GOVERNMENT ISN'T ATHEISTIC, AND I'D HATE IT TO BE. In order for there to be religious freedom there must be freedom from all religion/non-religion.

In other words, fool the public by changing dictionary terminology.

You're the one who wants to change the dictionary to make Atheism a religion and a belief (At which case I'd cease to be an Atheist). Fool the public? How exactly lol, by actually adhering to the real definitions of words and not made up ones?

but I am not so stupid as others to believe you. Terminology in the dictionaries is perverted to control how people communicate.

Words = communication. If you don't like a word then don't [insert profanity here] use it. Atheists are the content of the definition first, the word Atheist is irrelevant, you could change the definition of Atheism to whatever you want, but the second you do Atheists will cease to be Atheists anymore and will become something else that fits the definition.

Political correctness is for fooling the slow.

What on Earth does political correctness have to do with ANYTHING we've discussed. Explain this to me.


Can you stop using that huge blue font? We can all hear you just fine in black and white lol.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Although it follows the definition of what a religion is, that is not what I said. I said that it is a "BELIEF." Is there any Atheist who do not believe in evolution? Is the theory a belief? If evolution is what Atheist believe, and they did not believe in evolution before, then that is their doctrine. Every time anyone figures you guys out you cry foul. It takes a lot of faith to believe in evolution.

 

[Sir Pwn4lot]

Although it follows the definition of what a religion is, that is not what I said. I said that it is a "BELIEF." Is there any Atheist who do not believe in evolution? Is the theory a belief? If evolution is what Atheist believe, and they did not believe in evolution before, then that is their doctrine. Every time anyone figures you guys out you cry foul. It takes a lot of faith to believe in evolution.

Atheism is and isn't a belief, let me explain. Gnostic Atheism (The belief that there is no God) is a belief, but I'm not in the habit of defending other people's religious views lol. When you come and talk to me I assume you're talking about what I believe (or lack thereof in this case ;) )

When you're a little kid and you can't comprehend religion do you agree that you have no belief concerning it? I have gained no belief since then, it's as simple as that lol. I simply don't believe anything regarding God.

Finish this sentence: As an Agnostic Atheist; Sir Pwn4lot believes in.....

 

[JudaicChristian]

Although it follows the definition of what a religion is, that is not what I said. I said that it is a "BELIEF." Is there any Atheist who do not believe in evolution? Is the theory a belief? If evolution is what Atheist believe, and they did not believe in evolution before, then that is their doctrine. Every time anyone figures you guys out you cry foul. It takes a lot of faith to believe in evolution.

Atheism is and isn't a belief, let me explain. Gnostic Atheism (The belief that there is no God) is a belief, but I'm not in the habit of defending other people's religious views lol. When you come and talk to me I assume you're talking about what I believe (or lack thereof in this case ;) )

When you're a little kid and you can't comprehend religion do you agree that you have no belief concerning it? I have gained no belief since then, it's as simple as that lol. I simply don't believe anything regarding God.

Do you believe in evolution?

 

[Sir Pwn4lot]

Do you believe in evolution?

if you don't stop using that big blue font I'm gonna go crazy lol, we can all hear with with a regular font.

Well of course I believe in things outside my religious/non-religious view BUT THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH MY RELIGIOUS STANCE.

Evolution has nothing at all to do with God and therefore it's not a belief about God ;)

I assume you believe in gravity, atomic theory, cell theory, pornography, incest, etc but all these beliefs have nothing to do with your religious belief (Christianity)

BELIEF IN EVOLUTION IS NOT REQUIRED BY AGNOSTIC ATHEISM. Therefore it is independent of of my Agnostic Atheism.

Congratulations Sherlock, you've successfully pointed out that I believe in things.....

 

[Free]

You are changing the philosophical definitions of gnostic and agnostic and they don't make sense.

An atheist is someone who either makes a positive assertion that there is no God or simply does not believe in God due to a lack of evidence (which really is ultimately agnosticism).

An agnostic is someone who either asserts that we cannot know whether God exists or simply cannot make up their own mind on the matter.

A Gnostic is, in religious terms, a follower of Gnosticism.

So really, there is no such thing as an agnostic atheist, a gnostic atheist, or a Gnostic Christian.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Do you believe in evolution?

if you don't stop using that big blue font I'm gonna go crazy lol, we can all hear with with a regular font.

Well of course I believe in things outside my religious/non-religious view BUT THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH MY RELIGIOUS STANCE.

Evolution has nothing at all to do with God and therefore it's not a belief about God ;)

I assume you believe in gravity, atomic theory, cell theory, pornography, incest, etc but all these beliefs have nothing to do with your religious belief (Christianity)

BELIEF IN EVOLUTION IS NOT REQUIRED BY AGNOSTIC ATHEISM. Therefore it is independent of of my Agnostic Atheism.

Congratulations Sherlock, you've successfully pointed out that I believe in things.....

Agnostic only means that you are on the fence and do not know what to believe. I am not yelling. the big blue font is for the contrast. When you do a lot of reading it makes it easier to segregate things.

 

[Sir Pwn4lot]

Agnostic only means that you are on the fence and do not know what to believe. I am not yelling. the big blue font is for the contrast. When you do a lot of reading it makes it easier to segregate things.

Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable.

Agnosticism doesn't deal with belief, Atheism/Theism deal with belief (Read the first post). Agnosticism isn't a midpoint between Atheism & Theism lol, it deals with an entirely different concept.

You are changing the philosophical definitions of gnostic and agnostic and they don't make sense.

An atheist is someone who either makes a positive assertion that there is no God or simply does not believe in God due to a lack of evidence (which really is ultimately agnosticism).

An agnostic is someone who either asserts that we cannot know whether God exists or simply cannot make up their own mind on the matter.

A Gnostic is, in religious terms, a follower of Gnosticism.

So really, there is no such thing as an agnostic atheist, a gnostic atheist, or a Gnostic Christian.

Gnosticism was a religious movement applied to several Christian groups (Because they claimed to have divine knowledge ungiven to the Church), and it's etymology suggests that it can be used as I did:

c.1585, from L.L. gnosticus, from Late Gk. gnostikos, noun use of adj. gnostikos "knowing, able to discern," from gnostos "knowable/known," from gignoskein "to learn, to come to know" (see know). Applied to various early Christian sects that claimed direct personal knowledge beyond the Gospel or the Church hierarchy. The adj. meaning "relating to knowledge" (with lower-case g-) is from 1656.

Sound the two words out: know, gno-stic. The -stic is just there for the same purpose as the -stic in Athei-stic (Thei is derived from theo which means god)

 

[Free]

Gnosticism was a religious movement applied to several Christian groups (Because they claimed to have divine knowledge ungiven to the Church), and it's etymology suggests that it can be used as I did:

c.1585, from L.L. gnosticus, from Late Gk. gnostikos, noun use of adj. gnostikos "knowing, able to discern," from gnostos "knowable/known," from gignoskein "to learn, to come to know" (see know). Applied to various early Christian sects that claimed direct personal knowledge beyond the Gospel or the Church hierarchy. The adj. meaning "relating to knowledge" (with lower-case g-) is from 1656.

Sound the two words out: know, gno-stic. The -stic is just there for the same purpose as the -stic in Athei-stic (Thei is derived from theo which means god)

I know what gnosticism is/was and where these words are derived from. My point was that, from a Christian perspective, Gnosticism and Christianity are, for the most part, mutually exclusive; they are two different belief systems. Hence, there really is no such person as a Gnostic Christian.

Anyway, I disagree with your definition of knowledge. Knowledge is "a true belief that is warranted or justified" (Pocket Dictionary or Apologetics & Philosophy of Religion, p66). Your definition is actually quite circular.

 

[Sir Pwn4lot]

Gnosticism was a religious movement applied to several Christian groups (Because they claimed to have divine knowledge ungiven to the Church), and it's etymology suggests that it can be used as I did:

c.1585, from L.L. gnosticus, from Late Gk. gnostikos, noun use of adj. gnostikos "knowing, able to discern," from gnostos "knowable/known," from gignoskein "to learn, to come to know" (see know). Applied to various early Christian sects that claimed direct personal knowledge beyond the Gospel or the Church hierarchy. The adj. meaning "relating to knowledge" (with lower-case g-) is from 1656.

Sound the two words out: know, gno-stic. The -stic is just there for the same purpose as the -stic in Athei-stic (Thei is derived from theo which means god)

I know what gnosticism is/was and where these words are derived from. My point was that, from a Christian perspective, Gnosticism and Christianity are, for the most part, mutually exclusive; they are two different belief systems. Hence, there really is no such person as a Gnostic Christian.

Anyway, I disagree with your definition of knowledge. Knowledge is "a true belief that is warranted or justified" (Pocket Dictionary or Apologetics & Philosophy of Religion, p66). Your definition is actually quite circular.

Gnosticism first meant knowing/knowable, and then was applied to Christians who believed that they had divine knowledge unavailable to the Church, not the other way around. It doesn't matter really, one means you make a claim one means you don't, it's as simple as that.

You'll notice I never defined knowledge lol, I said A/Gnosticism is to do with knowledge (Which it is). Knowledge isn't the same as belief, but it does relate heavily to it. Agnosticism is about what you claim, not what you actually know, they're both terms about what you claim. If you're Agnostic you don't claim knowledge, if you're Gnostic (Some people just call it strong, ie Strong Atheism, but they both mean the same thing) then you claim to know, it's as simple as that.

For Example, if you're an Agnostic Atheist you don't believe in God (Atheism component) but you don't claim there isn't one (Agnostic component). A Strong or Gnostic Atheist doesn't believe in God (Atheism component) but also claims to know there isn't one (Gnostic/Strong component)

See what I mean? Here is a good page I found that sums it up

 

[Free]

You'll notice I never defined knowledge lol,

You sure did: "This is a huge problem on these forums, people haven't grasped the difference between belief and knowledge....Belief is what your opinion or thought content consists of....Knowledge is a summary of what you claim."

I said A/Gnosticism is to do with knowledge (Which it is). Knowledge isn't the same as belief, but it does relate heavily to it. Agnosticism is about what you claim, not what you actually know, they're both terms about what you claim. If you're Agnostic you don't claim knowledge, if you're Gnostic (Some people just call it strong, ie Strong Atheism, but they both mean the same thing) then you claim to know, it's as simple as that.

For Example, if you're an Agnostic Atheist you don't believe in God (Atheism component) but you don't claim there isn't one (Agnostic component). A Strong or Gnostic Atheist doesn't believe in God (Atheism component) but also claims to know there isn't one (Gnostic/Strong component)

The point being, you're in a religious based forum, discussing religion, and then throwing terms around which have different meanings in different contexts. There is no confusion if you just stick with better terms, such as strong atheism, weak atheism, modest agnostic, aggressive agnostic, etc.

Your definition of an agnostic atheist, when it is boiled down, is really just agnosticism.

 

[jasoncran]

jason is now really cornfused.

 

[researcher]

I believe this topic has become confuzzled lol

 

[Sir Pwn4lot]

You'll notice I never defined knowledge lol,

You sure did: "This is a huge problem on these forums, people haven't grasped the difference between belief and knowledge....Belief is what your opinion or thought content consists of....Knowledge is a summary of what you claim."

[quote="Sir Pwn44lot":3mn823au] I said A/Gnosticism is to do with knowledge (Which it is). Knowledge isn't the same as belief, but it does relate heavily to it. Agnosticism is about what you claim, not what you actually know, they're both terms about what you claim. If you're Agnostic you don't claim knowledge, if you're Gnostic (Some people just call it strong, ie Strong Atheism, but they both mean the same thing) then you claim to know, it's as simple as that.

For Example, if you're an Agnostic Atheist you don't believe in God (Atheism component) but you don't claim there isn't one (Agnostic component). A Strong or Gnostic Atheist doesn't believe in God (Atheism component) but also claims to know there isn't one (Gnostic/Strong component)

The point being, you're in a religious based forum, discussing religion, and then throwing terms around which have different meanings in different contexts. There is no confusion if you just stick with better terms, such as strong atheism, weak atheism, modest agnostic, aggressive agnostic, etc.

Your definition of an agnostic atheist, when it is boiled down, is really just agnosticism.[/quote:3mn823au]

Oh really? I forgot I did lol.

Well I was wrong there (it's okay to be wrong every now and then isn't it ), knowledge is true & objective fact, belief is subjective motivation for your actions (Often swayed by bias or emotion) and A/Gnosticism is whether you claim knowledge or not.

I'd agree that my definition of an Agnostic Atheist can be the same as Agnosticism (If your belief/non-belief is Atheism), but Agnosticism says nothing about your belief, only what you claim regarding knowledge. An Agnostic doesn't claim that God does/doesn't exist, but his belief isn't explained, he could be an Agnostic Atheist or even an Agnostic Theist (the view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence.)

So no, my definition of Agnostic Atheism isn't the same as Agnosticism, because it entails two separate concepts instead of just knowledge.

If you like I could just use weak & strong lol. Very well from now on (To make it easier lol)