Reality of Heaven and Hell

[Vic C.]

Lily of God
Looks like Vic gave you the green light :D
Bring it :wink:

If Lily cares to mention the fact that he/she believes in UR so the Forum knows where he/she is coming from, that's fine. To promote it with the intention to debate or argue said "doctrine" is still off limits though.

 

[vinc]

Would like to add a few verses from Luke as part of the ongoing discussion -

Luke 9:54-56 - And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.

Lord bless.

 

[lily of God]

Lily of God
Looks like Vic gave you the green light :D
Bring it :wink:

If Lily cares to mention the fact that he/she believes in UR so the Forum knows where he/she is coming from, that's fine. To promote it with the intention to debate or argue said "doctrine" is still off limits though.

thank you Vic,

I don't want to get into trouble. I don't seem to know the limitation of the rules.

I just stay out of controvercial topics. :wink:

peace

 

[Quath]

Why do you suppose Jesus told his deciples to sell their coat and buy a sword? To cut apples? no, to defend themselves because Jesus new he was not going to be with them any longer. Look up the Passage. Its in luke.

I have seen several ways Jesus is portrayed. One is a pacficist who turns his cheek and does not resist an evil person. One is Jesus who is does not hesistate to use might against the unrighteous. I see Christians also split over this characterization of Jesus.

Trully I have enjoyed my conversation with you.

Likewise.

The Bible can be interpreted and used every way you want. If we are not truly seeking to be faithful to God, it is a total waste reading the Bible.

I do think there is some history in there and some good insight into how ancient people saw things. So I wouldn't say it is a total waste.

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind." This is very heavy command from God."

I like Leviticus 19:18 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself.

However, I think that the examples in the Bible where God orders neighbors killed contradicts this. So I see some good ideas in the Bible, but bad follow throughs as well.

I don't want to get into trouble. I don't seem to know the limitation of the rules.

The moderators are pretty good at giving warnings if they think you are going over the line or approaching it. I have some of the most controversial views on here and I have been given a pretty decent amount of leeway.

However, it seems that you don't want to have to get into a defense of your beliefs. That's fine. Don't feel pressured to do what you are uncomfortable with. I am just curious as to how you believe, but I can understand that it is not something that is easy to discuss.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

We are not allowed to talk about controvercial stuff. It is against forum's rules.

Hmm, what controversial "stuff" might that be? UR maybe? No one said it can't be mentioned; it just can't be actively promoted.

Vic,
Have you been holding out on us? Where are you hiding the non-controversial stuff? C'mon, post the link. :smt005

 

[jgredline]

Lily of God
May I suggest letting the scriptures do the talking for you. This is the best way.
Most people that do not like to get into debates is because they go off feelings instead of what the word of God says. So far, I don't believe you have used the scriptures once. You may have, but i don't remember seeing them.

As for Jesus, Well he was not nor is a Pacifist. Not at all.
Since Jesus is the same yesterday, today and for ever, that settles it.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

... As for Jesus, Well he was not nor is a Pacifist. Not at all.
Since Jesus is the same yesterday, today and for ever, that settles it.

Amen jgredline. We can agree on this!

Some of the words of Jesus Christ:
Jhn 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Some of the actions of Jesus Christ:
Jhn 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

I am so glad that I am on His side...

:lilangel:

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

See what I mean? You are humiliating me already. I am not Universalist. Just because I don't interpret hell like you do, does not mean I am wrong. You are using majority power to ostracize me. I have been reading and reserching the Bible. And I know majority will just humiliate their opposer by saying they are not Christian or whatever. It is always this way.

You are not the judge of me. You should get rid of your superiority complex. It is not christian attitude.

You are in a Christian Forum. BIBLE BELIEVERS!
No one is trying to humiliate you. Ostracize you. Judge you. Or trying to fee superior to you. We believed the Biblical Scriptures referring to hell long before you came along. Your unbelief has not changed that.

We are, with our Christian attitude, trying to bring you to the knowledge of the truth of the Bible.

 

[Atonement]

What is so hard about accepting Hell??
Here are the Words of our LORD..

Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


WHO CARES about the fire and brimestone of Hell.. What Hell really is; Is The absense of God Almighty, this and that alone tells me I never wanna be in such torment..

 

[lily of God]

We are, with our Christian attitude, trying to bring you to the knowledge of the truth of the Bible.

This is what I mean by your superiority complex. It is not of God. You are not authority of the Bible. Who made you the judge of right interpretation? This kind of attitude was and is Catholics' too. They even killed their opposers.

I am here to express my beliefs and convictions. I am very much Christian whether you give me permission or not.

So, Attonment, I am not welcome here because I don't agree with your theology/interpretation of the Bible?

 

[scutato]

lily of God: I think you're misunderstanding. They don't mind you holding your views as long as you have some sort of Scriptural basis to back it up, and you haven't provided one.

Personally, I have no problem with a hell of fire and brimstone AND separation from God. Look at it this way:

Jesus, the very Son of God Himself, died a terrible, gruesome death in the place of anyone who would accept His gift of salvation. Are you telling me that those who shove it in His face should be given something as easy and painless as *poof* you're gone? Jesus Christ is worth more than that.

Finally, Jesus is not as flat a character as people would have Him be. God is a God of love, but also a God of (righteous!) wrath and judgement. Look at anyone you know: do they have only once facet to their character, or many? The Bible is clear that God is the same.

 

[Voyageur]

I think hell is counter-intuitive to the whole idea of an all-compassing, omni-present and omnipotent divinity, and thus purely a human construction. A means by which clergy and government were able to control the masses.

If we agree that God is everything, the alpha and omega, the whole of the universe, then we have to assume that everything in the universe is part of God. This means that human beings, plants, etc., are part of God, whether good or bad. The pre-condition for their existence is God.

For God to condemn souls to hell is to condemn a part of his being to hell as well, which is not in a God's interest.

Further, if God encompasses everything and God is perfection, then God has no wants or needs. Need and want are human conditions, not divine conditions.

Therefore, a God would not need nor want to condemn any part of him/herself--which we have agreed includes souls--to some place of eternal damnation.

 

[scutato]

Hell is Scripturally-based, but I can't recall anywhere I've heard what you just wrote. Oh wait...pagan religions! :P

It's true that Revelation says God is the Alpha and the Omega; however, this is only an expression that He is all-powerful and above all. It does NOT mean that God is everything, or in everything. If that was the case, God would be sin.

I'm sure we can agree that's not the case.

 

[Voyageur]

Why would we need to be saved from the wrath of God. Because he is Holy and it would go against his nature not to destroy us because non of us are good, no not one.

Jgredline-

Then you must include yourself in this statement.

If not one person is good, then it is impossible for you to be the living embodiment of righteousness, which you very clearly try to pass yourself off as on a consistent basis.

This proves that you are a hypocrit.

 

[scutato]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Turn down the hate a bit...no need to start name-calling.

 

[Voyageur]

Hell is Scripturally-based, but I can't recall anywhere I've heard what you just wrote. Oh wait...pagan religions! :P

Yet, it is not a physical realm according to Judaism. Just some food for thought.

So, you are saying that God is not everything.

God himself said that he was the Alpha and the Omega. He forged the Universe in Genesis. He allows the universe to exist, and by extension human beings. How is this pagan? Please tell me.

It's true that Revelation says God is the Alpha and the Omega; however, this is only an expression that He is all-powerful and above all.

I'm sure we can agree that's not the case.

This is how you interpret Alpha and Omega. Who is to say who is right here? You? You are not an authority on that matter. Neither am I. The only thing we can go on is our interpretations.

By creating humans God allowed for the existence of sin.

It does NOT mean that God is everything, or in everything. If that was the case, God would be sin.

How can you prove that God is NOT everything or in everything? God is the necessary condition for existence. Without God, there would be nothing, correct?

And as far as sin, God brought humans into existence, and if God is all-knowing, then God had to of known that sin was inevitable. That makes God partially responsible for the existence of sin.

You realize that in reading a book, there is no one way to correctly interpret what has just been read. There are multiple interpretations.

So, for you or jgredline to suggest that you have the definitive interpretation is just patently absurd, sophomoric and disingenuous. You are reading a book. There is no one correct way to read a book. Not to mention a book so full of contradictions as the Bible.

 

[jgredline]

Why would we need to be saved from the wrath of God. Because he is Holy and it would go against his nature not to destroy us because non of us are good, no not one.

Jgredline-

Then you must include yourself in this statement.

If not one person is good, then it is impossible for you to be the living embodiment of righteousness, which you very clearly try to pass yourself off as on a consistent basis.

This proves that you are a hypocrit.

YES. I thank the Good Shepard Jesus Christ for saving me from the wrath of God. Amen and Amen..

Even though you meant it as a Jab, its all good because I can use it to give glory to the Living God. I pray that you will come to know him one day.


Romans 5:6-11
6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Romans 5:19-21
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

So you see Voy
I am Righteous not by anything that I do, but because Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour and am made righteous through his blood. If you have a problem with that, take it up with GOD.

Your pagan theology holds no water.
One day when or if your born again, you too will be made righteous.
Blessings to you.
Jg

 

[Voyageur]

Why would we need to be saved from the wrath of God. Because he is Holy and it would go against his nature not to destroy us because non of us are good, no not one.

Jgredline-

Then you must include yourself in this statement.

If not one person is good, then it is impossible for you to be the living embodiment of righteousness, which you very clearly try to pass yourself off as on a consistent basis.

This proves that you are a hypocrit.

YES. I thank the Good Shepard Jesus Christ for saving me from the wrath of God. Amen and Amen..
Even though you meant it as a Jab, its all good because I can use it to give glory to the Living God. I pray that you will come to know him one day.
Jg

You are still human. This means you are imperfect and subject to sin, and therefore no better than any of us.

Unless, of course, you are now a divinity. Are you?

"Its all good because I can use it to give glory to the Living God"?

This is just a convenient way for you to avoid having to rebut the accusation that you are a hypocrit and a charlatan. A way of coming out of the privy smelling like a rose because you cannot respond.

 

[scutato]

God himself said that he was the Alpha and the Omega. He forged the Universe in Genesis. He allows the universe to exist, and by extension human beings. How is this pagan? Please tell me.

God said He was the Alpha and the Omega, and indeed He did all those things you said above. But that doesn't mean at all that He is everything. In fact, if He forged the Universe, are you saying He forged Himself?

This is how you interpret Alpha and Omega. Who is to say who is right here? You? You are not an authority on that matter. Neither am I. The only thing we can go on is our interpretations.

By creating humans God allowed for the existence of sin.

I never claimed to be an authority. All I'm going by is what's most likely to be the proper interpretation. The Bible talks a lot about how God knows the beginning from the end, how He is all-powerful and over all things, but it doesn't talk at all about how everything we see around us is a part of God. I'm sorry, but the computer I'm typing this on right now is not part of God.

How can you prove that God is NOT everything or in everything? God is the necessary condition for existence. Without God, there would be nothing, correct?

How can you prove that I'm not a chocolate chip cookie? Just because you can't prove something is NOT true doesn't mean it IS true. All we can go on is what Scripture says. What you're promoting is what Hindus believe their God to be (Brahman - all existence and consciousness).

Indeed, without God there would be nothing. I don't disagree.

And as far as sin, God brought humans into existence, and if God is all-knowing, then God had to of known that sin was inevitable. That makes God partially responsible for the existence of sin.

Indeed, God is responsible for the existence of sin. No disagreement. That doesn't make God sinful, or sin a part of God, or any such thing. Your logic seems to go both ways, when the words you're extrapolating from only go one.

You realize that in reading a book, there is no one way to correctly interpret what has just been read. There are multiple interpretations.

So, for you or jgredline to suggest that you have the definitive interpretation is just patently absurd, sophomoric and disingenuous. You are reading a book. There is no one correct way to read a book. Not to mention a book so full of contradictions as the Bible.

Indeed, there are infinite ways to interpret any written word. However, some ways are obviously refutable if they go against the facts of what's been written, and we as Christians are told to discern against those interpretations. What you believe is your decision, but if you say something potentially destructive to faith in a public place where others can be affected, it is every Christian's responsibility to disagree and provide the truth.

 

[jgredline]

You are still human. This means you are imperfect and subject to sin, and therefore no better than any of us.

Unless, of course, you are now a divinity. Are you?

"Its all good because I can use it to give glory to the Living God"?

This is just a convenient way for you to avoid having to rebut the accusation that you are a hypocrit and a charlatan. A way of coming out of the privy smelling like a rose because you cannot respond.

YES. I thank the Good Shepard Jesus Christ for saving me from the wrath of God. Amen and Amen..

Even though you meant it as a Jab, its all good because I can use it to give glory to the Living God. I pray that you will come to know him one day.


Romans 5:6-11
6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Romans 5:19-21
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

So you see Voy
I am Righteous not by anything that I do, but because Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour and am made righteous through his blood. If you have a problem with that, take it up with GOD.

Your pagan theology holds no water.
One day when or if your born again, you too will be made righteous.
Blessings to you.
Jg