Reason you can not deny

[Sothenes]

Sothenes

Mormon bishops and home teachers also do not get paid. And they are actually much closer to the scriptures at that point, however you miss the point. It is not IF they get a pay check or not, the question is does the Bibles teaching support this practice.

I can also say that Mormons give much more money (sadly) then any Christian group to each other and to help people in general. Plus they missionaries pay for their own way.

So then if we are to be pragmatic as you seem to imply the Mormons must be OK too? Yet we know that there is not salvation in Mormon teaching. WHY because the bible teaches us otherwise.

Henry,

This is NOT a discussion about the Mormon Church but you are the one who made the comparison about money and if you want to say that Christians shouldn't have buildings because they could give more money then maybe I could start making fruitless comparisons between how much money your church gives verses the Mormons. What does that prove? Absolutely nothing.

We're talking about meeting people where you are at. I work for employers whom are hard to please and they are angry though you did nothing wrong to them. They are angry at preachers and what they say about money. The offense starts not with Jesus but it starts with the attitude that no one should have anything. Employers are a hard to reach group because they made something of themselves and they wouldn't see your church making anything of themselves because you choose to spend it instead of invest it to make more money. You can spend your money so that you are broke feeding people or you can invest the money into a business that feeds people. They wouldn't see your church as a building that glorifies God or creates any kind of ambiance for worship. What you would communicate to people is that your God is a poor God and that He's going broke because unless people are in house churches, people will be wasting money on main line buildings that have lasted hundreds of years instead of wasting more money on more modern house churches that don't last as long. The rich may not read your Bible but they will read your buildings as offering them nothing above their lives but the main line churches do have a ministry to the rich because they speak their language and you do not.

I don't have to worry about money or finances because I believe that where the Lord leads the Lord provides. I'm not weak in the faith and fear that unless we do it all that God's evangelism program is going to fail. It is God's church and if He wants us to reach out to more people then I believe that God will give us the ability to reach more people.

You seem to think that if the church gives more money that they will be more successful in reaching the lost. No one becomes a Christian unless the Father first draws them and no one becomes a Christian unless God reveals Himself to them. You would never change a doubting Thomas and you would never appeal to a rich person. We also have a guy at work who volunteers himself at soup kitchens and he sees the same homeless people year after year because its not the giving of people which changes others. It is the gospel which changes others.

 

[Sothenes]

It is obvious that the House Church articles are part of an attempt to attack main line churches or other churches in order to steal sheep. If the House Church people want respect then they should go out and make disciples the old fashioned way.

 

[Henry]

Attack? Respect? You think we are trying to steal sheep?

Oh brother............

The Bible does not support the modern church structure with buildings and pastors, and the modern church structure is contrary to what what the bible does teach us in the matter of church life.

You keep arguing from a pragmitic point of veiw, that says we do what do to serve the needs of the people. So in your view any way is a good way if it feels good and gets the job done.

But I say NO, the only way that is acceptable is that which the bible teaches and certainly God know BETTER then we do.

So, are you ready to take a step into the scriptures and see if there things be true, or do you want to keep comparing one man to another?

Sorry, if this bothers you but the modern church you attend with a pastor and building and all that is no more biblical then the mormon temple down the road. (may be there isn't one)

That is why I used them as an example, and you are right we can learn about giving from them they do it well. Never the less SO WHAT if it is not honoring the scritures.

For example the scripture teaches that it is OK to interupt someone who is speaking in a church meeting if you have some revelation to share. So then, what happens in a modern church meeting ?? Can you tell the pastor to sit down while he is preaching? No

Another example is the Lords Supper, the church of the bible actually ate a supper and full meal and that is the very reason they gathered in the first place. But today it is reduced to some cracker and sip of juice every so often.

In both cases the modern practice is not founded in the bible but is mans own traditions, and is on conflict with the bible and contrary to the bible.

Now, would you believe the Lords Supper is to a joyful time of eating and celebrating and having fun. Not a time if repenting and calling to our memory our sins and all that stuff we see in modern churches.

I could say so much more, but the bottom line is that our modern church or main line what ever, is not at all close to the church of the bible and you are not willing to even consider that.

Why not, they teach that if you are not there paying them a tenth you are under a curse.

Sad really that Christians are caught up in churchianity and missing the real deal.

 

[Sothenes]

Attack? Respect? You think we are trying to steal sheep?

Oh brother............

The Bible does not support the modern church structure with buildings and pastors, and the modern church structure is contrary to what what the bible does teach us in the matter of church life.

"Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:"-Philippians 1:15-16

"..whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice."-Philippians 1:18

Do you rejoice at these other churches preaching Christ and do you rejoice like Paul? Pretence is an outward showing and is contrasted with 'truth'. You are saying that the Bible doesn't support the modern church but Paul is saying that in pretence "I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice." In reality, I'm not going to give up listening to some of the greatest scholars in my lifetime expound the word of God so that I can go to a house church because I have a greater responsibility.

 

[Sothenes]

For example the scripture teaches that it is OK to interupt someone who is speaking in a church meeting if you have some revelation to share. So then, what happens in a modern church meeting ?? Can you tell the pastor to sit down while he is preaching? No

You are using a broad brush to paint with and the Church of Jesus Christ is multifaceted.

 

[gingercat]

Do you rejoice at these other churches preaching Christ and do you rejoice like Paul?

To be honest, I did not get impression that those churches I atteded (many kinds on denominations) were truly seeking His will or trying to be truthful servants.

If we are not sincere Christians, we are misrepresenting God and it is a grave sin.

 

[Henry]

1 Corinthians 14:26-42 (New International Version)
Orderly Worship
26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, twoâ€â€or at the most threeâ€â€should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.
29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.[a]
39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way


This is a church meeting friend. These are Paul’s instructions as to how to have an orderly church meeting. Notice there is nothing about the worship band, or the pastor or anyone preaching. You can not find any of thing anywhere in NT.

Are you still going to argue with Gods word and say that what you are doing a church meeting is OK, when it is not even close to this?

 

[Imagican]

Once again Henry, let me offer my support in letting what you say have more than one offering it, but a witness also. Amen brother.

Once again we witness that there are those that are much more comfortable following each other in their churches than following God through His Son.

The adamance against your statements only goes to show where the hearts 'truly' lie.

Folks, you can serve ONLY ONE MASTER. Worship of churches and their leaders is nothing short of idolatry. Worship God and leave the rest to the world.

Henry has simply tried to offer such in fewer words by pointing out the reliance that is placed on the church 'system' rather than the 'true Church' of Christ. We are told PLAINLY that CHRIST is the head of the Church and that he who would be greatest among his brothers would be him that SERVES THEM THE MOST. NO, not him that is 'served' the most, which is what I have observed most pastors of most churches desire above all else. And yes,

I said most churches, for the overwhelming majority that I have visited share at least this in common. I have been to a bunch of em so I find it awful hard to believe that my conclusion could be off by more than a few percentage points. NO, I have NOT been to EVERY church. But I have visited enough to see certain common characteristics and one is the nature of their leadership.

And Henry is ABSOLUTELY right. We have little example of the church structure from the Bible. Yes, we are told that there are to be certain people chosen for the edification of the Body. But as far as leadership, the Church is to be LED BY CHRIST, IT'S HEAD. We are but to follow Him to the Father.

What we witness in the churches now days is CONTRADICTORY to the Word. God, NOR Christ dwell in a 'temple' any longer. The temple is US. We are to gather. But we were NEVER told to gather in the way in which it takes place in our modern churches.

We were told to give, but we were NEVER told to make the pastors, (leaders), of the churches rich. This is totally contradictory to the Word. Yes, our teachers and ministers deserve our support. But, what Paul offered was that HE WAS THE EXAMPLE TO FOLLOW. And he plainly states that not only did he take NOTHING from the Church, but worked to help use what he had to help support those that had more than he did.

It seems that not only have the churches developed the art of 'picking and choosing' scripture to support their ideas, they have also taught their followers to do the same. The Church is there FOR the people, NOT the people for the churches. Anything that does NOT edify the whole is unscriptural and of no effect upon the 'truth' of the Word.

Henry, I am quite sure that you are aware of the difficulty you will encounter with what you offer. Very few desire any kind of truth now days except the one that they create themselves. What they desire more than serving Christ or living by His example is personal gratification. The churches realizing what their itching ears desire to hear have altered what they teach in order to expand their congregations. Not heeding the 'truth', but instead actually sacrificing it for the prosperity and prestige that can be obtained by having their, 'super-churches'. Not surprising in the least.

And watch how angry these that worship the churches become when one points out the 'truth'. There is no reason for anger among those that are brothers in Christ. But, those whose leader is different than the Son really takes offense when the 'truth' comes out. For he longed to be worshiped SO BAD that he gave up his place in heaven to rule in hell. What he gets when his reign ends is ALL he gets. This could NEVER be enough so he becomes furious when someone tries to point out his lies. Like a spoiled child that doesn't get his way, he will throw tantrums and kick and scream, hoping that those that matter will simply give in and let him have his way.

Rebuke him I say. Deny him and remind him of his place. He chose it, let him be satisfied with what he has chosen. But, he will NEVER be God no matter who worships him. So weeping and the gnashing of teeth do not make me want to waver in the least. Let him squirm and throw his fits, just know that in the long run all his efforts will be in vain.

 

[Henry]

Imagican

We have little example of the church structure from the Bible.

Short correction, I say the Bible does give us more then enough examples of Church structures, but nothing at all in the way of church structure as it has become.

Henry, I am quite sure that you are aware of the difficulty you will encounter with what you offer.

Can you believe that I am in a job as clergy? I work as chaplain with many “clergy†from all sorts of denominations and churches. From Methodist to Catholic Priest, who I consider my brothers and friends. Some of the best talks I have had about church life and structure have been with Benadicting Monks.

It is not as though I am in a vacume and have not understanding of other churches, I most certainly do, I know them, I love them. Never the less they understand and respect that I find it unbiblical for the most part.

Funny I wear a clergical shirt as my work uniform in the hospital. I was asked once why? I said because that is what my boss wants me to do, and it can be a tool when used correctly. Never the less I am fully aware that it comes from pagan backgrounds and has no biblical foundation at all.

I have been insulted and attacked and threatened as well by clergy who feel threatened by my ideals. I say mine, but they are not mine I agree with them, they are really Paul’s (the apostle)

If frustrates me when people here speak to me as though I am ignorant when I truth I am likely more exposed to so many different churches then anyone else here.

 

[Vic C.]

I didn't read through all the posts but man, haven't we been though this before?

I guess Jesus, Paul and other were in err for teaching and preaching in the Temple and various church buildings throughout Asia Minor. :o

 

[Sothenes]

This is a church meeting friend. These are Paul’s instructions as to how to have an orderly church meeting. Notice there is nothing about the worship band, or the pastor or anyone preaching. You can not find any of thing anywhere in NT.

Are you still going to argue with Gods word and say that what you are doing a church meeting is OK, when it is not even close to this?

Henry, you are comparing all churches to a charismatic church service and not all church services are charismatic.

"And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away."- 1 Peter 5:4

Chief Shepherd implies that there are undershepherds. "And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered. My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search of seek after them. Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord."-Ezekiel 34:6-7

Pastor is a New Testament term for Shepherd and it is found in Ephesians 4:11 and many leaders call themselves that. If you say that their practice is wrong then the New Testament practice must have been wrong according to your teaching. If you have no pastor then your sheep are probably wandering spiritually through all the mountains and every high hill.

You say that church says nothing about the worship band but the scriptures do mention instruments such as the timbrel, harp, trumpet, psaltery, stringed instrumens, organs, cymbals which means that there has to be more than one person playing which is a band (Psalm 149 and Psalm 150). And the scriptures do say to "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;"-Ephesians 5:19 You church may be too small to have a band and what you do is your business but the fact is that there is a pattern in the Bible for these things and you are just trying to cause division.

I go to church to worship the Lord, hear the Lord speak through His word, be edified or edify others and hear the teaching which is also very important to me. I don't care what mode people have their church service in because those are secondary issues but the spiritual aspect of worship, edifying, giving, and teaching is more important.

 

[Henry]

Vic

I guess Jesus, Paul and other were in err for teaching and preaching in the Temple and various church buildings throughout Asia Minor.

You see the problem is that you are not udnerstanding what we are talking about. No one says there was anything wrong with then teaching in the Temples that is not the point.

What you do not find are church meetings in temples, when people became saved they did not meet in temples for worship.

You are talking about two very different things.

In public this was evanglism, but in a church meeting this was in a home centered around a meal.

Oh and there where no church buildings in the NT the Temple was even realy a church. Only the priest actually when inside, the rest of the people where in the court yards, which also happened to the place where most would celebrate and peddle goods as well.

Again to be very clear we are talking about a church meeting, and what was going on in the Temples was not a church meeting. It was something else all together.

And there is not reason to be so arrogant and sarcastic about this, it is very important and just becuase you are not getting it does no mean you can insult those of us who do.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

And on that note the topic is now closed. Bottom line: no biblical proof against church buildings has been given. Church homes have the potential of becoming problematic as much as church buildings. The important thing in any church meeting is the focus of worship. The focus of worship should be on celebrating the resurrection of Jesus Christ, evangelizing the to the lost, and teach people about the Bible.