Bible Study Reception of the Holy Spirit

[thessalonian]

I asked this in theology and apolgetics but it is a Bible Study question I think.

What is required to receive the Holy Spirit? i.e. to become a born again Christian.

Some of you believe that just belief is neccessary.

John.7
[39] Now this he said about the Spirit, which those who believed in him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Acts.19
[2] And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

This passage in Acts 19 was after Christ had been glorified, yet they apparently had not received the Holy Spirit even though they believed in Christ. So it seems that while belief is necessary there is more. In context this passage and the one in Acts 10 where the Holy Spirit came to cornelius and company seem to indicate that someone from the Church has to be present.

 

[Heidi]

I asked this in theology and apolgetics but it is a Bible Study question I think.

What is required to receive the Holy Spirit? i.e. to become a born again Christian.

Some of you believe that just belief is neccessary.

John.7
[39] Now this he said about the Spirit, which those who believed in him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Acts.19
[2] And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

This passage in Acts 19 was after Christ had been glorified, yet they apparently had not received the Holy Spirit even though they believed in Christ. So it seems that while belief is necessary there is more. In context this passage and the one in Acts 10 where the Holy Spirit came to cornelius and company seem to indicate that someone from the Church has to be present.

All that's required is sincere honesty and genuine remorse about all of your sins, and a fervent desire to be forgiven for them. Then God will mercifully grant you forgiveness and you will receive the Holy Spirit. "Worldly grief brings sorrow but Godly grief leads to repentence."

 

[thessalonian]

I asked this in theology and apolgetics but it is a Bible Study question I think.

What is required to receive the Holy Spirit? i.e. to become a born again Christian.

Some of you believe that just belief is neccessary.

John.7
[39] Now this he said about the Spirit, which those who believed in him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Acts.19
[2] And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

This passage in Acts 19 was after Christ had been glorified, yet they apparently had not received the Holy Spirit even though they believed in Christ. So it seems that while belief is necessary there is more. In context this passage and the one in Acts 10 where the Holy Spirit came to cornelius and company seem to indicate that someone from the Church has to be present.

All that's required is sincere honesty and genuine remorse about all of your sins, and a fervent desire to be forgiven for them. Then God will mercifully grant you forgiveness and you will receive the Holy Spirit. "Worldly grief brings sorrow but Godly grief leads to repentence."

All well and good Heidi. I agree that sincere repentence is neccessary. I believe belief is neccessary to receive the HS. Your simply not dealing with the Biblical void that the question poses. You still haven't shown me anyone in the NT that was inducted in to the Church apart from the Church. NOT ONE SINGLE VERSE. Don't you believe the Bible Heidi? Did it leave something out? Where are these born again Christians who went off by their little lonesome as you claim you did and got the Holy Spirit? I don't see them anywhere in the NT. Nobody who came up to an apostle and said "I have the Holy Spirit". Simon wanted it and Peter would not bestow it on him. Of course Simon was not repentant and wanted it for sorrid purposes. But why did he come to Peter if Peter was teaching everybody that you go off and pray in your own little room and you'll be filled with the Holy Spirit.

This really is turning out to be an interesting question. Mostly because of the lack of response. I've posted it on other boards and asked it of some of my email friends. One of them blocked me for asking it.

God bless

 

[Heidi]

Thessaloninan,

Since the bible is describing those they knew who came to God, of course they're going to describe the ones whom they witnessed as having received the Holy Spirit in their presence! They cannot talk about those who received the Holy Spirit away from them when they didn't know about it! But that doesn't at all mean that there were not people who received the Holy Spirit later in life and away from them. By your reasoning, then the only ones who received the Holy Spirit since Christ died were those the apostles witnessed! Nothing could be further from the truth. Hundreds of millions of people have received the Holy Spirit since the apostles died without witnesses!

So again, your salvation is between you and God. Paul received the Holy Spirit when he was with people whom the bible never clams ever received the Holy Spirit. I know a pastor who received Him on a boat. My husband received the HS in his car, another person I know received Him in an airplane! In fact, of the born again Christians I know, there are only 2 I can think of who received Him in or near a church. Since God sends us the Holy Spirit, not people, He diecides where and when He will send Him to us, and the odds that He will send Him when we are in a church are 50/50. You cannot limit or regulate the power of God. It is limitless and miraculous. God doesn't just exist in a church. He is everywhere.

 

[thessalonian]

Heidi,

I have to say this seems very odd to me. You give me alledged examples of people who got the Holy Spirit all by themselves. Yet you say that God couldn't write such examples in scripture. You mean God couldn't have had someone come up to Paul a few days after he heard him speak and say "Hey Paul I thought about what you said in the Aeropogus. I didn't get it right away but later I was out my field working and I decided I would repent and lo and behold I got the Holy Spirit. And Paul says WOWZER!. Hey you know igore Sarah got the holy spirit by herself also". No I think God could have put in his Bible examples of people who got the Holy Spirit apart from the Church if it were happening just as you claim you know people who got the holy spirit and claim you got it yourself apart from the Church. But Paul didn't get it on the road to damascus and the disciples in Acts 19 didn't get it until they came in to contact with Paul and Annais clealy had it because he heard the voice of God directing him to go and see Paul. So what your telling me just doesn't stack up with scripture. Sorry.

God bless

 

[Heidi]

Heidi,

I have to say this seems very odd to me. You give me alledged examples of people who got the Holy Spirit all by themselves. Yet you say that God couldn't write such examples in scripture. You mean God couldn't have had someone come up to Paul a few days after he heard him speak and say "Hey Paul I thought about what you said in the Aeropogus. I didn't get it right away but later I was out my field working and I decided I would repent and lo and behold I got the Holy Spirit. And Paul says WOWZER!. Hey you know igore Sarah got the holy spirit by herself also". No I think God could have put in his Bible examples of people who got the Holy Spirit apart from the Church if it were happening just as you claim you know people who got the holy spirit and claim you got it yourself apart from the Church. But Paul didn't get it on the road to damascus and the disciples in Acts 19 didn't get it until they came in to contact with Paul and Annais clealy had it because he heard the voice of God directing him to go and see Paul. So what your telling me just doesn't stack up with scripture. Sorry.

God bless

Why would the bible do that? :o Why is it necessary for the authors of the bible to say where each person got saved? :o Why is it necessary for you to know that? If the authors of the bible thought this issue was important it would deinitely address it! But it doesn't. So you need to focus on what the bible does address because you're missing that entirely, Thessalonian. Again, you need to call on God for the Holy Spirit, not people. ;-)

 

[Heidi]

Thessaloninan, your pre-occupation with where someone gets saved is again focusing on the wrong thing. I got saved in my bedroom and had only stepped into a church once in my 39 years. Yet there are millions of people, including Musims, Buddhists, Jews, atheists, etc. who get saved without ever having stepped foot into a church. There are thousands of people who live on Islands with no church who get saved and in many countries, Christian gatherings are illegal. So your claim that you need a church to receive salavation is not only bogus, it's ridiculous.

 

[thessalonian]

Thessaloninan, your pre-occupation with where someone gets saved is again focusing on the wrong thing. I got saved in my bedroom and had only stepped into a church once in my 39 years. Yet there are millions of people, including Musims, Buddhists, Jews, atheists, etc. who get saved without ever having stepped foot into a church. There are thousands of people who live on Islands with no church who get saved and in many countries, Christian gatherings are illegal. So your claim that you need a church to receive salavation is not only bogus, it's ridiculous.

It would be ridiculous except I never said anywhere, anything about anyone stepping in to a Church. Find it or apologize for twisting what I have said.

 

[thessalonian]

Thessaloninan, your pre-occupation with where someone gets saved is again focusing on the wrong thing.

I am not really pre-occupied with this question except by the fact that you cannot answer it. My focus is not on one being in the presence of a member of the Church when receiving the Holy Spirit. I have said above that belief and repentence is of the utmost importance. You of course ignore these words of mine and say I am obsessed with my question. You simply fail to provide scriptural evidence for your belief in the lack of importance of the prescence of the Church on earth.

I got saved in my bedroom and had only stepped into a church once in my 39 years.

Are you sure you have the Holy Spirit? Mormons tell me they have the Holy Spirit. Do they?

Yet there are millions of people, including Musims, Buddhists, Jews, atheists, etc. who get saved without ever having stepped foot into a church. There are thousands of people who live on Islands with no church who get saved and in many countries, Christian gatherings are illegal. So your claim that you need a church to receive salavation is not only bogus, it's ridiculous.

A Church is not a building. I've had protestants tell me that so many times as if I think it is. The Church is the people. No man is an island no matter how much you would like to think you can be. Your lack of use of scripture in this thread is telling that you stubbornly refuse to submit to it when you do not view it in your favor. Sad.

By the way in the end I do let God decide if someone is saved or not so I'm not telling you your not. Though I do see a problem with your theology that allows you to think you may have the HS when you do not. I hold out hope that God may grant it to those who truly seek him in this life at the end of their lives. In his prescence at judgement as with the theif on the cross we may be cleansed of all unrighteousness.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

Why would the bible do that? :o Why is it necessary for the authors of the bible to say where each person got saved? :o Why is it necessary for you to know that? If the authors of the bible thought this issue was important it would deinitely address it! But it doesn't. So you need to focus on what the bible does address because you're missing that entirely, Thessalonian. Again, you need to call on God for the Holy Spirit, not people. ;-)

The issue is that multiple times it gives us examples of people being saved in the prescence of someone who was saved, ie. a member of the Church, i.e. someone who has the Holy Spirit. It gives us examples of people who "beleived" yet clearly did not have the Holy Spirit until the came in to the prescence of someone who had it. It does not give us any examples of anyone who got the holy spirit the way that you claim that you did. I don't believe it has to give the circumstances of everyone's salvation. I do however believe that one example of what you are saying would be nice. By your own admission there are none and so naturally you call it me obsessing over it when you cannot support it from scripture. Sad. By the way, I don't see any evidence of anyone just saying "God give me The bible addresses repentence, belief, baptism, laying on of hands, being in the prescence of the Church. It never addresses getting the Holy Spirit off in timbucktwo by yourself. So it seems it is you that needs to deal with what the Bible does address. My points are covered in scripture. By your own admission yours is not.

blessings

 

[Heidi]

Why would the bible do that? :o Why is it necessary for the authors of the bible to say where each person got saved? :o Why is it necessary for you to know that? If the authors of the bible thought this issue was important it would deinitely address it! But it doesn't. So you need to focus on what the bible does address because you're missing that entirely, Thessalonian. Again, you need to call on God for the Holy Spirit, not people. ;-)

The issue is that multiple times it gives us examples of people being saved in the prescence of someone who was saved, ie. a member of the Church, i.e. someone who has the Holy Spirit. It gives us examples of people who "beleived" yet clearly did not have the Holy Spirit until the came in to the prescence of someone who had it. It does not give us any examples of anyone who got the holy spirit the way that you claim that you did. I don't believe it has to give the circumstances of everyone's salvation. I do however believe that one example of what you are saying would be nice. By your own admission there are none and so naturally you call it me obsessing over it when you cannot support it from scripture. Sad. By the way, I don't see any evidence of anyone just saying "God give me The bible addresses repentence, belief, baptism, laying on of hands, being in the prescence of the Church. It never addresses getting the Holy Spirit off in timbucktwo by yourself. So it seems it is you that needs to deal with what the Bible does address. My points are covered in scripture. By your own admission yours is not.

blessings

Paul received the Holy Spirit when in the presence of non-Christians, so your argument is bogus. You apparently believe that people give the Holy Spirit to each other, do you not? :o Otherwise, why do you think it's necessary for other people to be around when someone is born again? :o If you think that people can give the Holy Spirit to each other, then I, myself could save everyone with whom I come into contact. Sorry, Thessalonian, but your points are not only not valid, but they have nothing to do with a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

 

[D46]

God can do whatever he chooses...whether you be in the presence of believers, in a church or watchinig a Bill Gaither tape, or praying at home by yourself. If God touches your heart, the mere presence of anyone else is irrelevant. There's no need for a congregation to be there.

Acts 2:1-4

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Here, no one had hand layed on them as in other verses. God made a promise and kept it(Luke 24:49). Other verses show whereby with the laying on of hands others received the Holy Ghost(Spirit).

Acts 8:14-18 (KJV) Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Acts 9:17 (KJV) And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.


Acts 19:2-6 (KJV) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

However, Cornelieus had no hands layed on him as the spirit of God overcame him and his family at Peter's preaching.

Acts 10:44-47 (KJV) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

So, God can do as he sees fit with each one of us in whatever manner he chooses. Cornelieus was a devout man as the Scriptures shows, but obviously he hadn't heard much of the word of God until Peter, and the other Jews with him, began to preach to him and his family.

If someone wants to see "criteria" I believe that would be belief, faith, obedience and submission to the Lord Jesus and His Gospel would qualify a person to receive the Holy Ghost.

 

[thessalonian]

Paul received the Holy Spirit when in the presence of non-Christians, so your argument is bogus.

Who is bogus? Paul did not recieve the Holy Spirit on the road to Damascus. Sorry.
:o

[10]
Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Anani'as. The Lord said to him in a vision, "Anani'as." And he said, "Here I am, Lord."


[11] And the Lord said to him, "Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying,
[12] and he has seen a man named Anani'as come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight."
[13] But Anani'as answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem;
[14] and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon thy name."
[15] But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;
[16] for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name."
[17] So Anani'as departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." [18] And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized,

Paul recieve the HS in the prescence of Anani'as Heidi. You misrepresent the Bible.

You apparently believe that people give the Holy Spirit to each other, do you not? Otherwise, why do you think it's necessary for other people to be around when someone is born again? :o

I suggest you stop telling me what I bleived. God gives the Holy Spirit. But he does it within the dictates he has laid our for the believer. Part of that is the witness of the Church.

:o If you think that people can give the Holy Spirit to each other, then I, myself could save everyone with whom I come into contact. Sorry, Thessalonian, but your points are not only not valid, but they have nothing to do with a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Where did I say belief was not neccessary. You can not give the Holy Spirit to one who is not open to it. And no you cannot save anyone but God can work through you to save other if you have the Holy Spirit. It seems you think the individual can give himself the Holy Spirit? Can't happen sorry.

 

[thessalonian]

God can do whatever he chooses...whether you be in the presence of believers, in a church or watchinig a Bill Gaither tape, or praying at home by yourself. If God touches your heart, the mere presence of anyone else is irrelevant. There's no need for a congregation to be there.

Didn't say there was a need for a congregation to be there.

[quote:06591]Acts 2:1-4

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This is the first conferring of the Holy Spirit on the Church spoken of when John said "the Holy Spirit had not been given yet" back in John 1.

John.7
[39] Now this he said about the Spirit, which those who believed in him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Actually the spirit had been given for the forgiveness of sins back in John 21 so this quite apparently is a fuller gift of the Holy Spirit but at the risk of derailing the thread I will go no further on this matter.

[quote:06591]
Here, no one had hand layed on them as in other verses. God made a promise and kept it(Luke 24:49). Other verses show whereby with the laying on of hands others received the Holy Ghost(Spirit).

When is the last time tongues of fire and wind rushed on you dude. This is the conferring of the Holy Spirit on the Church who were to bring it to others. There is noone after this who recieves it on their own. Even here the Apostles are in the prescence of other believers in Christ.

Acts 8:14-18 (KJV) Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

This shows that the Holy Spirit was conferred by the laying on of hands. It does not violate my question.

Acts 9:17 (KJV) And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Ananias was a disciple. That makes him a member of the Church. I think you think I said they have to be in a Church building. Silly. :-D

Acts 19:2-6 (KJV) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Paul represented the Church here. Quite apparently you don't understand the question or are reading in to it what you think I mean because of biases about what you think Catholicism teaches about Church buildings.

However, Cornelieus had no hands layed on him as the spirit of God overcame him and his family at Peter's preaching.

Acts 10:44-47 (KJV) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

So, God can do as he sees fit with each one of us in whatever manner he chooses. Cornelieus was a devout man as the Scriptures shows, but obviously he hadn't heard much of the word of God until Peter, and the other Jews with him, began to preach to him and his family.

If someone wants to see "criteria" I believe that would be belief, faith, obedience and submission to the Lord Jesus and His Gospel would qualify a person to receive the Holy Ghost.[/quote:06591][/quote:06591]

The point is that Cornelius believed in God the day before and was said to be God fearing and righteous, yet no Holy Spirit until Peter showed up.

 

[thessalonian]

If someone wants to see "criteria" I believe that would be belief, faith, obedience and submission to the Lord Jesus and His Gospel would qualify a person to receive the Holy Ghost.

Hmmm. Prequalification?


I do agree that God can do whatever he wants but the scriptures do tell us what he does. So I think you have to show me where he made someone a born again Christian and conferred the Holy Spirit when someone was off in their own little room.

 

[ironmonk]

God can do whatever he chooses...

Every Catholic Christian agrees with you on that.

If God touches your heart, the mere presence of anyone else is irrelevant. There's no need for a congregation to be there.

D,
The problem is that our heart can deceive us.


Obadiah
1:3 The pride of your heart has deceived you


We must do the will of the Father.

St. Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

How can we obtain the spirit unless we do it the way God wants us to? The way He had all of the new disciples that the Apostles layed hands on receive it. Have we seen Christ and given up everything for Him like the Apostles did? Have we seen the Holy Spirit as if it was dancing like flames around us? no... the way we receive the Holy Spirit is that we must have hands laid on us from the Church built by Christ on the foundation of the Apostles... with Christ Himself as the capstone. The way God wants it, not the way we do.


According to Paul you will not receive the Holy Spirit by simply believing...

Acts 19:1-3 "Paul . . . came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, 'Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?' And they said, 'No . . . ' And he said, 'Into what then were you baptized?'" .

Titus 3:5-7"[H]e [God] saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life"


Jesus Christ poured the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles, in turn they poured it upon new disciples and those new disciples could pour it upon new disciples and an unbroken chain since the time of Christ can be seen in the One Faith (Eph 4:5) of the Catholic Church (St. Matt 28:18-20).... built by Christ never to be overcome by the netherworld. (St. Matt 16:18-19) To be a like a city on a mountain for all time for all to see (St. Matt 5:13-15)

 

[ironmonk]

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[ironmonk]

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[ironmonk]

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[ironmonk]

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