Bible Study Reception of the Holy Spirit

[ironmonk]

double post

 

[ironmonk]

test

 

[ironmonk]

test

test

 

[Heidi]

If someone wants to see "criteria" I believe that would be belief, faith, obedience and submission to the Lord Jesus and His Gospel would qualify a person to receive the Holy Ghost.

Hmmm. Prequalification?


I do agree that God can do whatever he wants but the scriptures do tell us what he does. So I think you have to show me where he made someone a born again Christian and conferred the Holy Spirit when someone was off in their own little room.

If you've received the Holy Spirit, Thess, then why do you need that clarification? :o Thomas Aquinas received it in a little room, Paul received him when in the presence of unbelievers. Who cares? Do you not know that the Holy Spirit is from God, not men? If you do, then why do you try to limit God by declaring that He can only dispense him around other people? :o

 

[ironmonk]

test

 

[Heidi]

If someone wants to see "criteria" I believe that would be belief, faith, obedience and submission to the Lord Jesus and His Gospel would qualify a person to receive the Holy Ghost.

Hmmm. Prequalification?


I do agree that God can do whatever he wants but the scriptures do tell us what he does. So I think you have to show me where he made someone a born again Christian and conferred the Holy Spirit when someone was off in their own little room.

The scriptures do not tell us everything he does, Thessalonian, because none of us is as omniscient as God is, nor can we ever be. Jesus said; "I have much more to tell you, more than you can now bear."

Why is it so important to you where people are converted if you have already received the Holy Spirit? :o Why do you try to limit God?

 

[D46]

ironmonk-I said If God touches your heart, the mere presence of anyone else is irrelevant. There's no need for a congregation to be there.

D,
The problem is that our heart can deceive us.

That is a fact as it is written, Jeremiah 17:9 (KJV) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

However, the 120 in the Upper Room in the 2nd Chapter of Acts received the Holy Ghost without anyone laying hands on them as they did also in Acts 4:31

Acts 4:31 (KJV) And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

If your heart is right with God, I believe you are a lot less likely to be deceived by another Spirit. As I said, God is sovereign and can do whatever He chooses to whomever or wherever that may be. I agree that by the laying on of hands that many received the Holy Ghost but, it wasn't the only way as evidenced by the preceeding scriptures.

Jesus Christ poured the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles, in turn they poured it upon new disciples and those new disciples could pour it upon new disciples and an unbroken chain since the time of Christ can be seen in the One Faith (Eph 4:5) of the Catholic Church (St. Matt 28:18-20).... built by Christ never to be overcome by the netherworld. (St. Matt 16:18-19) To be a like a city on a mountain for all time for all to see (St. Matt 5:13-15)

I don't know where you get anything pertaining to the Catholic Church from Matthew 28:18-20 and, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but-Jesus Christ did not build the Catholic Church...pagans did, but; I'll not go there again.

 

[Terral]

We Receive The Spirit By "Hearing With Faith" Toda

Hi Thessalonian:

The answer to your question is a little more complicated than others are posting to this thread. You have pointed out a seeming Bible Contradiction by quoting John 7 and Acts 19 in your post that very few have the resources to answer properly. You wrote,

Thessalonian >> I asked this in theology and apologetics but it is a Bible Study question I think. What is required to receive the Holy Spirit? i.e. to become a born again Christian.

Your question itself is made using contradictory terms that actually lead to a misunderstanding of the doctrinal components working to teach our ‘doctrine of salvation’ for today. Note carefully that Paul’s gospel includes only “one baptism†(Ephesians 4:5), but you have pointed out multiple baptisms in your example above (Acts 19:1-6). Christ is talking to Nicodemus in John 3, when teaching about how Israel could be ‘born from above’ (“gennao anothen†= John 3:3, 7). John uses the same term “anothen†in this same chapter to say,

"He who comes from above* is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.†John 3:31.

However, ask yourself this very important question: Has Christ died for anyone in John 3? No He has not. Christ is teaching kingdom doctrine to ISRAEL ONLY (Matthew 15:24), as He sent the Twelve to ISRAEL ONLY (Matthew 10:5-7) in the Four Gospels to preach the “gospel of the kingdom.†(Matthew 4:23, Matthew 9:35, Matthew 24:14, etc.). What you are going to find is that kingdom disciples receive the Holy Spirit through the laying of hands (Acts 8:17, Acts 19:6), while those hearing Paul’s “word of the cross†(1Corinthians 1:18) gospel message receive the Spirit by “hearing with faith†(Galatians 3:2). If the Samarians were hearing (Romans 10:17) Paul’s ‘my gospel’ (Romans 16:25) in Acts 8:12-17, then they would have received the Spirit by hearing back in verse 12. Paul is also ‘preaching the kingdom’ (Acts 20:25) to the ‘disciples’ of Acts 19:1-6, which is why you see him laying hands for the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:6) instead of by ‘hearing with faith.’ The Gospel of the Kingdom is gospel #1 below and Paul’s gospel for us today is gospel #2. We cannot borrow works from the first and add them to the second, or that voids the power of the cross to save (1Corinthians 1:17).

--------------------------
This is NOT our gospel for today. Nobody has been saved by this Gospel message for almost 2000 years.
------------------

I. Gospel of the Kingdom (Matthew 4:23 , Matthew 9:35, Matthew 24:14, Acts 8:12). Gospel to the Circumcised. Galatians 2:7.

1. The good news that the ‘kingdom of heaven’ is ‘at hand’ (Matthew 3:2, Matthew 4:17, Matthew 10:7). i.e., ‘preaching the kingdom.’ Acts 20:25.
2. According to Prophecy; seen by the OT Prophets. Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1.
3. Obtain eternal life by keeping the commandments. Matthew 19:16+17.
4. Water baptism (during confession) for the ‘forgiveness of sins.’ Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38. (John’s Baptism; Acts 19:3; name of the Father; John 1:6, 33, Matthew 28:19.)
5. Baptism in the ‘name of the Lord Jesus’ (Acts 8:16, Acts 19:5), ‘name of the Son’ (Matthew 28:19)
6. Receive the Spirit through the baptism in the ‘name of the Holy Spirit’ (Matthew 28:19) through the laying of hands (Acts 8:17, Acts 19:6).
7. Justified by ‘works and not by faith alone.’ James 2:20-24.
8. Kingdom disciples are under Mosaic Law (Matthew 5:18, James 2:10).

---------------------
This is our gospel for today that many believe is the ‘only’ gospel of the New Testament, but which actually was revealed to Paul (Galatians 1:11+12) after his conversion in Acts 9. Note that Christ preached the ‘gospel of God’ in Mark 1:14+15, which is gospel #1 above.
--------------------

II. Paul’s “my gospel†(Romans 2:16, Romans 16:25, etc.). Gospel to the Uncircumcised. Galatians 2:7.

1. The gospel of the grace of God. Acts 20:24.
2. According to the revelation of the Mystery; NOT seen by the OT prophets. Romans 16:25.
3. Saved by God’s grace through faith APART from works. Ephesians 2:8+9.
4. Sins forgiven through the redemption IN Christ (Romans 3:24) and His shed blood (Ephesians 1:7).
5. Our ‘one baptism’ (Ephesians 4:5) is done by the ‘one Spirit’ (Ephesians 4:4) into the ‘one body’ (1Corinthians 12:13), which is into “Christ’s body.†1Corinthians 12:27.
6. We receive the Spirit when hearing (Rom. 10:17*) and believing (Ephesians 1:13+14) Paul’s Gospel by ‘hearing with faith*.’ Galatians 3:2.
7. We are justified by faith apart from works. Romans 4:4-6.
8. We are under grace and not under law. Romans 6:14.
-----------------------

The reason that folks give you mixed answers on this question is because they mix the two gospels together into one that does not save. We cannot add the works of repentance, confession and water baptism from Gospel #1 into Paul’s Gospel for today, because that adds WORKS to a our gospel that MUST be accepted by faith APART from works (Ephesians 2:8+9).

Thank you again for asking this very good question,

In Christ Jesus through Paul’s Gospel apart from works,

Terral

 

[ironmonk]

I don't know where you get anything pertaining to the Catholic Church from Matthew 28:18-20 and, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but-Jesus Christ did not build the Catholic Church...pagans did, but; I'll not go there again.

I get everything in Scripture pertaining to the Catholic Church because the bible is a Catholic book.

"We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all." - Martin Luther, Commentary on St. John


Have you studied where we got the bible? The New Testament was not considered to be Scripture until 400 AD. You might want to research New Testament Canon from Encyclopedia Britannica. Also, please note some of the names it mentions... St. Irenaeus, St. Clement, St. Ignatius, St. Augustine, Origen, etc...

When studying these men (the first 800 years of Christianity) we see that they all believed in the sacraments. St. Augustine was one of the Bishops involved in the Canon of the New Testament.

You can buy the Early Church Father writings from http://www.logos.com/products/details/518 for $250

Note what it says... "The Early Church Fathers CD-ROM comes in two versions, Protestant and Catholic. Simply put, the difference is that the Protestant edition contains additional front matter written at a later date. There is no difference in the actual ECF text."

Why would the protestant version need additional front matter if the Catholic Church was built by pagans?

or read them free at http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/



A couple quotes:

St. Ignatius of Antioch, pupil of the Apostle John.

On authority...
"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

On confession...
"For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

On the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist...
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr
On the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist...
"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).


St. Irenaeus

On apostloic succession...
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

On the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist...
"If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?" (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).

Origen

On the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist...
"Formerly there was baptism in an obscure way . . . now, however, in full view, there is regeneration in water and in the Holy Spirit. Formerly, in an obscure way, there was manna for food; now, however, in full view, there is the true food, the flesh of the Word of God, as he himself says: ‘My flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink’ [John 6:55]" (Homilies on Numbers 7:2 [A.D. 248]).

 

[Heidi]

I don't know where you get anything pertaining to the Catholic Church from Matthew 28:18-20 and, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but-Jesus Christ did not build the Catholic Church...pagans did, but; I'll not go there again.

I get everything in Scripture pertaining to the Catholic Church because the bible is a Catholic book.

"We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all." - Martin Luther, Commentary on St. John


Have you studied where we got the bible? The New Testament was not considered to be Scripture until 400 AD. You might want to research New Testament Canon from Encyclopedia Britannica. Also, please note some of the names it mentions... St. Irenaeus, St. Clement, St. Ignatius, St. Augustine, Origen, etc...

When studying these men (the first 800 years of Christianity) we see that they all believed in the sacraments. St. Augustine was one of the Bishops involved in the Canon of the New Testament.

You can buy the Early Church Father writings from http://www.logos.com/products/details/518 for $250

Note what it says... "The Early Church Fathers CD-ROM comes in two versions, Protestant and Catholic. Simply put, the difference is that the Protestant edition contains additional front matter written at a later date. There is no difference in the actual ECF text."

Why would the protestant version need additional front matter if the Catholic Church was built by pagans?

or read them free at http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/



A couple quotes:

St. Ignatius of Antioch, pupil of the Apostle John.

On authority...
"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

On confession...
"For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

On the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist...
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr
On the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist...
"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).


St. Irenaeus

On apostloic succession...
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

On the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist...
"If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?" (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).

Origen

On the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist...
"Formerly there was baptism in an obscure way . . . now, however, in full view, there is regeneration in water and in the Holy Spirit. Formerly, in an obscure way, there was manna for food; now, however, in full view, there is the true food, the flesh of the Word of God, as he himself says: ‘My flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink’ [John 6:55]" (Homilies on Numbers 7:2 [A.D. 248]).

Sorry,but you need to read the bible and then the catholic catechism and doctrine. They disagree on most issues. ;-)

 

[thessalonian]

Re: We Receive The Spirit By "Hearing With Faith"

Hi Thessalonian:

The answer to your question is a little more complicated than others are posting to this thread. You have pointed out a seeming Bible Contradiction by quoting John 7 and Acts 19 in your post that very few have the resources to answer properly. You wrote,

Thessalonian >> I asked this in theology and apologetics but it is a Bible Study question I think. What is required to receive the Holy Spirit? i.e. to become a born again Christian.

Your question itself is made using contradictory terms that actually lead to a misunderstanding of the doctrinal components working to teach our ‘doctrine of salvation’ for today. Note carefully that Paul’s gospel includes only “one baptism†(Ephesians 4:5), but you have pointed out multiple baptisms in your example above (Acts 19:1-6). Christ is talking to Nicodemus in John 3, when teaching about how Israel could be ‘born from above’ (“gennao anothen†= John 3:3, 7). John uses the same term “anothen†in this same chapter to say,

[quote:fe05c]"He who comes from above* is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.†John 3:31.

However, ask yourself this very important question: Has Christ died for anyone in John 3? No He has not. Christ is teaching kingdom doctrine to ISRAEL ONLY (Matthew 15:24), as He sent the Twelve to ISRAEL ONLY (Matthew 10:5-7) in the Four Gospels to preach the “gospel of the kingdom.†(Matthew 4:23, Matthew 9:35, Matthew 24:14, etc.). What you are going to find is that kingdom disciples receive the Holy Spirit through the laying of hands (Acts 8:17, Acts 19:6), while those hearing Paul’s “word of the cross†(1Corinthians 1:18) gospel message receive the Spirit by “hearing with faith†(Galatians 3:2). If the Samarians were hearing (Romans 10:17) Paul’s ‘my gospel’ (Romans 16:25) in Acts 8:12-17, then they would have received the Spirit by hearing back in verse 12. Paul is also ‘preaching the kingdom’ (Acts 20:25) to the ‘disciples’ of Acts 19:1-6, which is why you see him laying hands for the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:6) instead of by ‘hearing with faith.’ The Gospel of the Kingdom is gospel #1 below and Paul’s gospel for us today is gospel #2. We cannot borrow works from the first and add them to the second, or that voids the power of the cross to save (1Corinthians 1:17).

--------------------------
This is NOT our gospel for today. Nobody has been saved by this Gospel message for almost 2000 years.
------------------

I. Gospel of the Kingdom (Matthew 4:23 , Matthew 9:35, Matthew 24:14, Acts 8:12). Gospel to the Circumcised. Galatians 2:7.

1. The good news that the ‘kingdom of heaven’ is ‘at hand’ (Matthew 3:2, Matthew 4:17, Matthew 10:7). i.e., ‘preaching the kingdom.’ Acts 20:25.
2. According to Prophecy; seen by the OT Prophets. Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1.
3. Obtain eternal life by keeping the commandments. Matthew 19:16+17.
4. Water baptism (during confession) for the ‘forgiveness of sins.’ Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38. (John’s Baptism; Acts 19:3; name of the Father; John 1:6, 33, Matthew 28:19.)
5. Baptism in the ‘name of the Lord Jesus’ (Acts 8:16, Acts 19:5), ‘name of the Son’ (Matthew 28:19)
6. Receive the Spirit through the baptism in the ‘name of the Holy Spirit’ (Matthew 28:19) through the laying of hands (Acts 8:17, Acts 19:6).
7. Justified by ‘works and not by faith alone.’ James 2:20-24.
8. Kingdom disciples are under Mosaic Law (Matthew 5:18, James 2:10).

---------------------
This is our gospel for today that many believe is the ‘only’ gospel of the New Testament, but which actually was revealed to Paul (Galatians 1:11+12) after his conversion in Acts 9. Note that Christ preached the ‘gospel of God’ in Mark 1:14+15, which is gospel #1 above.
--------------------

II. Paul’s “my gospel†(Romans 2:16, Romans 16:25, etc.). Gospel to the Uncircumcised. Galatians 2:7.

1. The gospel of the grace of God. Acts 20:24.
2. According to the revelation of the Mystery; NOT seen by the OT prophets. Romans 16:25.
3. Saved by God’s grace through faith APART from works. Ephesians 2:8+9.
4. Sins forgiven through the redemption IN Christ (Romans 3:24) and His shed blood (Ephesians 1:7).
5. Our ‘one baptism’ (Ephesians 4:5) is done by the ‘one Spirit’ (Ephesians 4:4) into the ‘one body’ (1Corinthians 12:13), which is into “Christ’s body.†1Corinthians 12:27.
6. We receive the Spirit when hearing (Rom. 10:17*) and believing (Ephesians 1:13+14) Paul’s Gospel by ‘hearing with faith*.’ Galatians 3:2.
7. We are justified by faith apart from works. Romans 4:4-6.
8. We are under grace and not under law. Romans 6:14.
-----------------------

The reason that folks give you mixed answers on this question is because they mix the two gospels together into one that does not save. We cannot add the works of repentance, confession and water baptism from Gospel #1 into Paul’s Gospel for today, because that adds WORKS to a our gospel that MUST be accepted by faith APART from works (Ephesians 2:8+9).

Thank you again for asking this very good question,

In Christ Jesus through Paul’s Gospel apart from works,

Terral[/quote:fe05c]

I didn't say any verses contradicted. I did not speak of multiple baptisms. I find your answer to be just another in the mix. "nobody's been saved by the Gospel for 2000 years"? You don't expect me to take you seriously. We are to make Christ's Gospel our Gospel. That is why Paul calls it "my gospel". :o

 

[ironmonk]

Heidi,

I'm sorry but you must not have read the Catechism.

The bible and Catechism disagree on nothing.

I've read both and here is the link to the Catechism:

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm

Please show me where the bible and Catechism differ... when you are looking at the Catechism, please be sure look at the footnotes.

Edit: Please be sure to show me with links to the above site, not excerpts taken out of context from anti-Catholic websites. If you use those, please find the number in the above link and read the entire section and footnotes to understand it. I ask this because many sites take the Catechism out of context. Sections are detailed and can easily be taken out of context to deceive people of the true meaning of what the Catechism teaches. I have a webpage that I put up to show how Ian Paisley does just that... http://www.IanPaisley.net

I've asked people to show me where they differ on a few different message boards for about five years now and no one has been able to... Will you be the first?

One of the links:
http://www.baptistboard.net/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=32


Maybe your private interpretation of Scripture is different than the Catholic Church's, but the Catholic Church does not contradict the Bible.

Another reference for you: http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com


Also, your opinion without showing any facts is quite lacking in a reasonable and intelligent rebuttal to what I wrote.

If you want to "prove" what I have written to be wrong intelligently, wouldn't it make sense to use the Early Church Fathers to do so? They were the first Christians, they were the disciples created by the Apostles... They would know what the Apostles taught better than anyone just picking up a bible and going off their own private interpretation.


PS...
I've been reading the bible since I was six. From age 8 to about 26 I really didn't go to Mass much at all. I've read the bible dozens of times. I've read most of the Catechism... I have never seen anything to contradict the Bible.

 

[thessalonian]

Why do I care if people have recieved the Holy Spirit?

Your not really asking this question I hope.

Why do you try to limit God?

I don't. I do believe he tells those who wish to follow him through his word what he does and HOW he does it. If we do not align our wills with it we are in deep do do. I will not make judgements on those who have not read the scriptures. The lack of scriptural support for your position in the two threads is quite telling Heidi.

 

[ironmonk]

It seems that he doesn't understand the logic that you do Thess.

Maybe this will help him understand...
We know God can do whatever he wants. We do not limit God. At the same time, if the Holy Spirit was guiding one, then the Holy Spirit would guide them to the Truth, not a lie.

Also, it is the Bible that clearly shows how the Spirit comes upon people. Unless there are flames dancing like the Apostles, people gain the Spirit through the laying of hands from someone who has the Spirit. That is not limiting God, that is God telling us how to get the Spirit.

That's a big difference brother, we are not limiting God in any fashion. Christ Himself was an example... He first had to be Baptized and the Holy Spirit decended on Him like a dove... because that is the way that God wants it... Then the Apostles where baptized, then they baptized... and they confirmed people after the Spirit had come onto them like dancing flames.

The real question here is "Why do you say God would do something to someone today without requiring them to do thesame things that the Apostles (and the disciples they made) were required to do?"

It seems you think it does happen in a different fashion than it did in the bible... your stance is unbiblical and groundless.

 

[thessalonian]

Yes monk. If someone says that God does something a different way than what has been revealed that is new revelation. We are told in scripture there is no new revelation. So if you cannot support something as important as how you revieved the Holy Spirit by scripture it would seem to me you have a problem on your hands. Perhaps the humble thing to do is to admit that perhaps you have something wrong and look for how to fix it instead of digging in your heals. There is NO EVIDENCE of anyone recieving the Holy Spirit, i.e. the Holy Spirit coming to dwell within them, when they are alone. Paul did not recieve the HS on the road to Damscus. You have yet to show me that he did.

God bless

 

[Terral]

We Are Not "Born Again" Today Like The Kingdom Bri

Hi Thessalonian:

Thank you for writing.

Thessalonian >> I didn't say any verses contradicted.

Your opening post is asking questions and specifically:

Thessalonian Original >> What is required to receive the Holy Spirit? i.e. to become a born again Christian.

We receive the Spirit of God today by “hearing with faith†(Galatians 3:2), when “hearing†(Romans 10:17) and believing (Ephesians 1:13-14) Paul’s “word of the cross†(1 Corinthians 1:18) gospel message. Had Christ died for anyone in John 3 where your “born again†(John 3:3, John 3:7) teaching appears? No! Your question contains a contradiction in terms, whether you realize it or not. We are not ‘born from above’ by the laying of hands for the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17, Acts 19:6), because that is part of the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ that Israel REJECTED. The two doctrinal outlines given above were to show you the difference.

Thessalonian >> I did not speak of multiple baptisms.

You are the one asking THE QUESTIONS in the Opening Post. The right answer is that there are ‘multiple baptisms’ for the ‘gospel of the kingdom,’ which we DO NOT even preach today. You are pretending that there is just one gospel in the New Testament, as if Christ preached Himself crucified in Mark 1, which He DID NOT. The disciples of Acts 19:1-6 already had the baptism of John (born in water), but then received the second baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus in Acts 19:5. Only then could they receive the Holy Spirit (your question) by the laying of hands in Acts 19:6. That is being ‘born from above’ (Born Again = John 3:3) for the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM. Today we receive the Holy Spirit by simply hearing that Christ died for our sins and that God raised Him from the dead (Romans 10:9); that our redemption is “IN†(Romans 3:24) Christ and our forgiveness is through His precious blood (Ephesians 1:7). There is no such thing as being ‘born from above’ for us today like those receiving the Holy Spirit through the laying of hands.

Thessalonian >> I find your answer to be just another in the mix.

Thank you, but one can easily realize the reasons why. By your response nothing I wrote above even began to register.

Thessalonian >> "nobody's been saved by the Gospel for 2000 years"?

Nobody has been saved through the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM (Matthew 4:23, etc.) for almost 2000 Years. That is NOT the gospel we preach today and you are missing the point of my post above. Obviously men are being saved by obedience to Paul’s Gospel #2 from my post, which has been ‘the gospel’ for the past 2000 years. The ‘gospel of the kingdom’ and Paul’s “my gospel†(Romans 16:25) are TWO DIFFERENT Gospel messages.

Thessalonian >> You don't expect me to take you seriously.

Let’s put it this way. The secrets of men will be judged according to Paul’s “my gospel†(Romans 2:16) and you do not have a clue about the differences. The prospect of that scares the daylights out of me . . . and it should you too . . .

Thessalonian >> We are to make Christ's Gospel our Gospel. That is why Paul calls it "my gospel".

No sir. Paul’s Gospel is “Christ and Him crucified.†1 Corinthians 2:2. Christ preached the “gospel of the Kingdom†in the years leading up to His Own Crucifixion. Scripture says,

“Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the Gospel Of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." Mark 1:14-15.

Has Christ died for anyone in Mark 1? No! Obviously this “Gospel of God†is a reference to SOMETHING ELSE. That ‘something else’ is the ‘gospel of the kingdom,’ that I described for you in the prior post (Gospel #1); which has everything to do with Kingdom Jews being “born from above.†Scripture says,

“Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.†Matthew 4:23.

We do not preach the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ that ISRAEL REJECTED. God raised Christ from the dead and gave Paul our gospel for today through a ‘revelation of Jesus Christ.’ Galatians 1:11-12. THAT is Paul’s ‘my gospel,’ which is NOT the “gospel of the kingdom†that Christ Himself preached.

I apologize, but there are no simpler terms to say these things and you either see the differences or you do not. Those baptized into Christ Himself (Galatians 3:27) through the ‘one baptism’ (Ephesians 4:5) connected to Paul’s gospel are NOT born of water and Spirit like those for the ‘gospel of the kingdom.’ We are the€˜new creation’ (Galatians 6:15) created “IN†Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:10) with lives "hidden with Christ “IN†God." Colossians 3:3. Since there is only ‘one baptism’ for Paul’s gospel having NOTHING to do with water, then you should realize that being created “IN†Christ is something totally different and a ‘one shot’ deal done by the Holy Spirit Himself.

Thank you again for writing,

In Christ,

Terral

 

[thessalonian]

Well your Gospel of the Kingdom concept is nonsense and word splitting to reconcile theology that contradicts. There is one Gospel which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which Paul preached. What Paul preached includes everything that Christ preached, which was fullfilled at the time of his resurrection. All before that was groundwork laid for the fullness of the Gospel. It is not that what you said didn't register or that I don't understand it and how you distort scripture to come up with it. I've heard it all before. It is simply that I reject it as false. Prior to Christ the scriptures point forward to his death. It is not a different Gospel but the same one from a different angle. You see conflict in what I post and I see none while I see conflict in your post. Big time. You have bought in to a false tradition. By the way do you believe in Once Saved always saved or eternal security? Just curious.

 

[Heidi]

Thessalonian, Jesus tells us not to stand on street corneres to pray to be seen by men, but to go into a room by ourselves and pray to our Father in secret so that we our relationship is only between ourself and God. And that is how most people I know have been born again. It is a personal relationship with God that has nothing whatsoever to do with other people. So your claim that people can only be born again with other Christians around is not only absurd, but unbiblical because the bible doesn't tells us anywhere that we can only be born again around other people. That is simply a conclusion you've drawn using human wisdom rather than spiritual wisdom.

Again, the bible can only describe those who were witnessed as having been born again. It cannot describe the millions of people who had no witnesses around when they received the Holy Spirit. But that doesn't at all mean that peolple aren't saved that way! Your thinking is thus, tunnel vision, only seeing one possibility instead of through the mind of Christ which is infinite in the ways that God works.

 

[Terral]

Please Present "Your" One Gospel Outline

Hi Thessalonian:

Thank you for writing.

Thessalonian >> Well your Gospel of the Kingdom concept is nonsense and word splitting to reconcile theology that contradicts.

Please “quote >>†the parts that appear ‘nonsense’ and offer rebuttal testimony using Scripture.

Thessalonian >> There is one Gospel which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which Paul preached.

We disagree. Paul’s gospel says that Christ died for our sins and God raised Him from the dead on the third day. 1 Corinthians 15:3-4. Christ Himself is seen preaching the “Gospel of God†three years before He died for anyone.

“Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." Mark 1:14-15.

Scripture says that Christ preached the “gospel of the kingdom†throughout His ministry BEFORE Calvary.

“Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.†Matthew 4:23.

“Jesus was going through all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.†Matthew 9:35.

This is “Gospel #1†from my post above that Israel REJECTED by their ‘transgression’ (Romans 11:11), which included crucifying the King of the same Kingdom. If the “gospel of the kingdom" concept is nonsense, then please explain what Scripture is saying above.

Thessalonian >> What Paul preached includes everything that Christ preached, which was fullfilled at the time of his resurrection.

Making these bold statements apart from quoting Scripture quite frankly does not mean anything. How can you even pretend to be ‘rightly dividing’ (2 Timothy 2:15) the word of truth, when your post contains NONE? Again, Christ is preaching the “gospel of God†(Mark 1:14) three years BEFORE the time of His resurrection. Your theology has not made room for ‘the truth’ of God’s Living Word in Mark 1:14-15 or Matthew 4:23 or Matthew 9:35 or Matthew 24:14 or Acts 8:12 where the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ is being preached.

Thessalonian >> All before that was groundwork laid for the fullness of the Gospel.

No sir. Jesus Christ is preaching the “gospel of the kingdom†exactly like Scripture says. God had to hide “God’s wisdom in mystery†(1 Corinthians 2:7) or Satan would have understood and never crucified the Lord of Glory. 1 Corinthians 2:6-8. The devil thought he was killing the ‘King of the Jews’ (John 19:19), which would stop the prophetic “kingdom of priests†Exodus 19:6 from becoming a reality. Paul’s ‘my gospel’ (Romans 16:25) is “according to the revelation of the mystery,†which means our gospel remained “hidden in God†(Ephesians 3:9) only to be given to Paul through a ‘revelation of Jesus Christ’ (Galatians 1:11-12) AFTER Calvary. You are confusing the two gospels of the New Testament, as if they represent the same thing.

Thessalonian >> It is not that what you said didn't register or that I don't understand it and how you distort scripture to come up with it.

That would be your job to prove by “quoting >>†anything errant from my post above, while making your case using Scripture. These opinions and assertions using unsupported statements add nothing to your side of this discussion at all.

Thessalonian >> I've heard it all before. It is simply that I reject it as false.

If you have seen these things before, then that makes your task much easier in finding errors and refuting my interpretations using Scripture. Thus far my side has presented over fifty references and you have yet to even quote me saying anything. GL in the Debate if you decide to begin proving your assertions.

Thessalonian >> Prior to Christ the scriptures point forward to his death.

Pointing forward is called “Prophecy,†while gospel messages are ‘preached’ for the salvation of the hearers. Nobody could ‘hear’ Christ Crucified in Mark 1 as the “gospel of God,†because God had yet to raise Him from the dead. That is ‘your’ assertion that cannot be proved using Scripture. Perhaps that is why your post to me contains NONE. Your bold statements will have a different tone the moment you begin trying to support them with God’s Word, because every syllable of the Holy Text agrees with me.

Thessalonian >> It is not a different Gospel but the same one from a different angle.

No sir. The two doctrinal outlines above contain directly ‘opposing’ precepts, which disqualifies them from being the ‘same one.’ Peter is preaching repentance and water baptism for the ‘forgiveness of sins’ (Acts 2:38) just like John the Baptist from the beginning (Mark 1:4-5). Are our sins forgiven that way today? No. We have Christ’s shed blood (Ephesians 1:7) for our forgiveness, which NOBODY had available to them in Mark 1. If you wish to prove your “different angle†theory using Scripture, then please be my guest.

Thessalonian >> You see conflict in what I post and I see none while I see conflict in your post. Big time.

Very good. The difference is that I am quoting your every word and using God’s Word, while you are quoting nothing and using your opinions. Which side is showing himself approved (1 Corinthians 11:19) and which side is proving nothing?

Thessalonian >> You have bought in to a false tradition.

Heh . . . a what? God’s Word says what God’s Word says. You have ‘your’ interpretation and this side has presented something else using Scripture. Your supported arguments will either withstand the test of Debate or they will not. The traditions of men have nothing to do with supporting your interpretation using Scripture. 2 Timothy 2:15.

Thessalonian >> By the way do you believe in Once Saved always saved or eternal security? Just curious.

You are wise to begin supporting your own opinions using Scripture, instead of asking more questions of your debating opponent on this topic. The Kingdom disciples obeying the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 24:14) must ‘endure to the end’ (Matthew 24:13) for salvation. Those obedient to Paul’s “word of the cross†(1 Corinthians 1:18) have lives hidden with Christ in God (Colossians 3:3) and are ‘sealedâ€⢠(Ephesians 1:13-14) for the ‘day of redemption’ (Ephesians 4:30). Those believing Gospel #2 from my outlines have eternal security “IN†Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:6-7), while the ‘bride’ (John 3:29) obeying the gospel of the kingdom do not.

Please take a few minutes and provide everyone here with your 'one gospel' doctrinal outline teaching your gospel using Scripture.

This is the topic of Debate here ( http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=20385 ) if you wish to join.

Thank you again for writing,

In Christ,

Terral

 

[thessalonian]

because every syllable of the Holy Text agrees with me.

Another infallible interpreter. :o Get with Heidi and Solo. Perhaps between the three of you you can work out which one of your infallible interpretations are correct. :-? I have not left out scripture for lack of it but for lack of time. If I have the copius amounts you seem to have and think I should have I may get around to it. But I am also afraid it takes more of a birds eye approach than your proof texting approach. Further it may require the removal of the sun glasses. Something I don't have the power to do.