Recognizing the Tares Take Two

[francisdesales]

Those who are of an Old Testament mindset persecute those of the New Testament mindset. The Old Testament mindset is of an image of god that is corrupt in concept. What do you think about what I just said?

Could you clarify that? Rather than guess what you are saying, I would like you to explain a bit what you mean.

Thanks

 

[francisdesales]

Folks, I am not trying to hurt feelings. But Most Christians do not believe Galatians 5:19-21. I want to give an excerpt from the passage:

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: ...
hatred, contentions, ... outbursts of wrath, dissensions, heresies,... and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

During the 1950's, Peter Ruckman invented the doctrine that the King James Version IS the Word of God, and that it is sinful to use any other translation. His original doctrine was that the Bible was also the Word of \God, and that God had preserved the translators of the KJV from error.

As that position became more steadily disproved, Ruckman invented a new doctrine: in 1611 God had rejected His Word and replaced it with a new revelation: the KJV. Ruckman teaches that those who adhere to his original doctrine are apostates.

In his writings, Ruckman rages in his hatred against Godly men who held to the Word of God. His blatantly racist insults (I personally read a racist joke that he wrote in one of his Bible commentaries) and a series of prophecies that did not come true show that this ungodly man cannot possibly be a prophet sent from God to teach us to reject His Word in favor of a man-made translation.

When I was a student at Hyles-Anderson College, Ruckman stole the wife of a fellow student. The student showed me Proverbs 22:24 Make no friendship with an angry man, And with a furious man do not go,
25 Lest you learn his ways And set a snare for your soul.

He told me that God had convicted him of that passage and he had disobeyed God, and he had lost his wife as a result. That verse clearly forbids any Christian from dealing with Peter Ruckman. Whether his books, his slanders, his original false doctrine, his current false doctrine, his false prophecies, his multiple marriages, his racial hatred, or his other sins, we are forbidden to have anything to do with this man.

I am not sure why people would not believe in Gal 5:19-21, or 1 Cor 6:9-10, for that matter. Probably because it overturns their preconceived ideas of "once saved always saved" and they prefer that notion to the idea of becoming perfected in Christ.

Regards

 

[taromina2003]

In Galatians 5:19-21, Paul contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit. But there is an important teaching in the very last part of Paul's statement:

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul had just finished telling the Galatians that these people are not born-again saints. Then he tells them that he had just told them that. Then he tells them that he is telling them in advance. Why? Because most Christians do not believe Galatians 5:19-21. I don't mean to be offensive, but I'm including many Godly saints. I'll be talking about this passage over the next few days.

This Christian does! I grow in Christ with the help of the Holy Spirit everyday I figure by the time I am 80 I may even think about starting a ministry if I live that long. I need all the help the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit want to bless me with with nothing left over! It is these particular scriptures that should keep us humble.

 

[childeye]

=francisdesales;534521]Could you clarify that? Rather than guess what you are saying, I would like you to explain a bit what you mean.

Every man has an absolute by which he reasons and this absolute defines one's moral terms, good bad, right wrong, rich poor, success failure etc... Perhaps it is best said everyone believes something as true to which he applies his faith as he walks accordingly. This is then his image of God. The term God here is an absolute described as all knowing, all powerful, omnipotent, omniscience, omnipresence.Therefore what a man believes to be true governs his moral spirit.

The image of god presented by Satan to man in the Garden of Eden is one of a self-serving god. This is subterfuge through subtlety, the power of suggestion. When Satan said God only wanted us to not eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil because He knew our eyes would be open and we would become like Him, this made God out to be holding us back from becoming what we could become. This is the image of god by which disobedience was fascilitated, for distrust precedes disobedience even as righteousness is by faith, or trust precedes righteousness, trust in the True Image that is. With a corrupt image of god, one is able to justify selfish, self glorifying and hypocritical behavior. Satan's power of deception over men's minds and hearts is through this perverted image. This is how he sires his children.

There are many images of God created by men, even as there are many religions. The Christ is the promised true Image of God sent by God Himself and not conjured by anybody. If One believes in this Christ, Christ becomes the absolute that rules in a man's reasoning and the believer's moral character changes accordingly, becoming a child of God as he walks in faith, sired by the Spirit of God through the Christ.

The Christ is the Word of God made flesh, and therefore he calls himself the son of man being flesh, yet refers to God as Father because the Spirit in him, his person, is concieved of the Holy Spirit. He is the only begotten, for the Word of God is the communication from God, and so is God, and the power of creation. Christ is the True Image of God and is seen as a man, flesh and blood just like you and me.

To understand why those of an Old Testament mindset persecuted those preaching the New Testament, just look at Saul who persecuted Christians who then became Paul the apostle. The blinders were taken off. Please excuse this crude explanation.

 

[Vince]

In listing the works of the flesh that prove that a person is not really a born again Christian, Paul includes "selfish ambition." The King James Version translates the same word as "strifes." The Greek word refers to people who take leadership for selfish reasons, and then cause divisions in order to strengthen themselves.

Some church members make sure that their church always has fights going on; if not, they start one. Christians who are being blessed by God in some ministry find themselves being attacked by church members who insist that God has called them to take over the ministry. Seeing the status that comes with success, and not caring about the Lord's work, these people will fight to advance themselves politically within the church. And the Apostle Paul tells us that these people are not saved.

And churches tolerate them, appease them, and try to hold down the conflicts by giving them what they want. Because most Christians do not believe Galatians 5:19-21.

 

[francisdesales]

Every man has an absolute by which he reasons and this absolute defines one's moral terms, good bad, right wrong, rich poor, success failure etc... Perhaps it is best said everyone believes something as true to which he applies his faith as he walks accordingly. This is then his image of God. The term God here is an absolute described as all knowing, all powerful, omnipotent, omniscience, omnipresence.Therefore what a man believes to be true governs his moral spirit.

The image of god presented by Satan to man in the Garden of Eden is one of a self-serving god. This is subterfuge through subtlety, the power of suggestion. When Satan said God only wanted us to not eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil because He knew our eyes would be open and we would become like Him, this made God out to be holding us back from becoming what we could become. This is the image of god by which disobedience was fascilitated, for distrust precedes disobedience even as righteousness is by faith, or trust precedes righteousness, trust in the True Image that is. With a corrupt image of god, one is able to justify selfish, self glorifying and hypocritical behavior. Satan's power of deception over men's minds and hearts is through this perverted image. This is how he sires his children.

There are many images of God created by men, even as there are many religions. The Christ is the promised true Image of God sent by God Himself and not conjured by anybody. If One believes in this Christ, Christ becomes the absolute that rules in a man's reasoning and the believer's moral character changes accordingly, becoming a child of God as he walks in faith, sired by the Spirit of God through the Christ.

The Christ is the Word of God made flesh, and therefore he calls himself the son of man being flesh, yet refers to God as Father because the Spirit in him, his person, is concieved of the Holy Spirit. He is the only begotten, for the Word of God is the communication from God, and so is God, and the power of creation. Christ is the True Image of God and is seen as a man, flesh and blood just like you and me.

To understand why those of an Old Testament mindset persecuted those preaching the New Testament, just look at Saul who persecuted Christians who then became Paul the apostle. The blinders were taken off. Please excuse this crude explanation.

Larry,

I have no problem with what you are saying, but could you describe the "OT mindset", according to you? I think that Jesus is presuming that the Torah, correctly understood, was indeed based upon what we would call Christian principles, for the most part. Mercy, forgiveness, justice, love of neighbor and God. Faith and trust in God.

I'll try to ascertain what you mean, and tell me if I am correct.

In my opinion, I believe you are pointing out the difference between the religious self-righteous and the humble man of God who understands the point of rituals. Thus, the OT Minor Prophets often attempted to correct the "OT mindset" of doing external works, sacrifices, etc., while having an impure heart, men who continued to persecute the poor and helpless, the wicked of heart, but on the outside, "worshiped" God. Thus, for example, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice" to mean, "sacrifices are of no value to Me (God) if it does not breed an inner desire to show mercy to your fellow man.

Is this what you mean by "OT Mindset"? Maybe not.

Paul's zeal was misplaced, but clearly, he was NOT the type of man whom the Minor Prophets were describing, a person of external works only, but impure of heart. Paul took his love of God seriously, and his zeal vs Christians was legitimate, given his views of God - before being given a divine revelation that God had come in the flesh as Jesus Christ. But remember, Jesus says that the OT speaks of Him throughout...

Regards

 

[childeye]

Larry,

I have no problem with what you are saying, but could you describe the "OT mindset", according to you? I think that Jesus is presuming that the Torah, correctly understood, was indeed based upon what we would call Christian principles, for the most part. Mercy, forgiveness, justice, love of neighbor and God. Faith and trust in God.

I'll try to ascertain what you mean, and tell me if I am correct.

In my opinion, I believe you are pointing out the difference between the religious self-righteous and the humble man of God who understands the point of rituals. Thus, the OT Minor Prophets often attempted to correct the "OT mindset" of doing external works, sacrifices, etc., while having an impure heart, men who continued to persecute the poor and helpless, the wicked of heart, but on the outside, "worshiped" God. Thus, for example, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice" to mean, "sacrifices are of no value to Me (God) if it does not breed an inner desire to show mercy to your fellow man.

Is this what you mean by "OT Mindset"? Maybe not.

Paul's zeal was misplaced, but clearly, he was NOT the type of man whom the Minor Prophets were describing, a person of external works only, but impure of heart. Paul took his love of God seriously, and his zeal vs Christians was legitimate, given his views of God - before being given a divine revelation that God had come in the flesh as Jesus Christ. But remember, Jesus says that the OT speaks of Him throughout...

Regards

Yes Joe I think you get the general idea. I would add that I'm not referring to scripture when I say Old Testament mindset. I am referring to the Old order that was in heaven before the Christ ascended to sit as an intercessor for man at God's right hand. Old mindset would then be, Those in the Oldness of the letter in contrast to those of the New according to the Spirit. Those who answer to the Jerusalem below contrasted with those who answer to the Jerusalem above. Those who are of works vs. those who are by faith. The carnal mind vs, the spiritual minded. And those who worship the sacrament as the sacred thing, and those who worship the spiritual virtue the sacrament represents. It is difficult to explain both sides of the cross due to semantics. I believe God does things this way as a testimony to how the seeing treat the blind whether they are the seeing made blind or the blind made seeing.

 

[francisdesales]

Yes Joe I think you get the general idea. I would add that I'm not referring to scripture when I say Old Testament mindset. I am referring to the Old order that was in heaven before the Christ ascended to sit as an intercessor for man at God's right hand. Old mindset would then be, Those in the Oldness of the letter in contrast to those of the New according to the Spirit. Those who answer to the Jerusalem below contrasted with those who answer to the Jerusalem above. Those who are of works vs. those who are by faith. The carnal mind vs, the spiritual minded. And those who worship the sacrament as the sacred thing, and those who worship the spiritual virtue the sacrament represents. It is difficult to explain both sides of the cross due to semantics. I believe God does things this way as a testimony to how the seeing treat the blind whether they are the seeing made blind or the blind made seeing.

OK, I get it, but I hope you realize that there were many righteous men in the OT, men of faith, such as Abraham and David, who would certainly fall under "men worshiping in Spirit", although they didn't have the fullness of revelation - they did worship God with the proper attitude of humility, faith and obedience.

Regards

 

[Vince]

Once again, I am not trying to be offensive when I point out that the majority of Christians do not believe Galatians 5:19-21. In this passage, Paul lists "murders" as proof that a person is not a genuine Christian.

A disciple of the false prophet Mani, St. Augustine believed that Christianity was an inferior religion that should be blended with other inferior religions to form a new and better religion. Forced under threat of death to convert to Catholicism, he then became the greatest of the Manichean philosophers. Blending the pagan doctrines of infant sprinkling, statue worship, prayers to the dead, unconditional election, and murder into Christianity, he strove to replace Christianity with a new and better religion:Catholicism.

His rivals included the Donatists, a peaceful people who demanded a strict religion. The Donatists claimed to be the one true Catholic church, insisting that an evil priest could not administer sacraments. If you know about Catholic history, you realize how serious a problem this would be. St. Augustine organized riots against the Donatists in which many of them were killed. A man cursed by God, St. Augustine also organized riots against Jews, knowing that many of them would be killed.

His unsuccessful blending of Mani's doctrine of unconditional election into Christianity inspired John Calvin to blend the two successfully, although the philosophy of irresistible grace had to be invented later to patch up a fatal flaw in Calvin's system.

1 John 3:15 makes it clear: "... and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." There is no way that this evil man was a prophet sent from God to tell us to blend the pagan doctrines of man into the truth of God's Word.

 

[francisdesales]

Once again, I am not trying to be offensive when I point out that the majority of Christians do not believe Galatians 5:19-21. In this passage, Paul lists "murders" as proof that a person is not a genuine Christian.

A disciple of the false prophet Mani, St. Augustine believed that Christianity was an inferior religion that should be blended with other inferior religions to form a new and better religion. Forced under threat of death to convert to Catholicism, he then became the greatest of the Manichean philosophers. Blending the pagan doctrines of infant sprinkling, statue worship, prayers to the dead, unconditional election, and murder into Christianity, he strove to replace Christianity with a new and better religion:Catholicism.

His rivals included the Donatists, a peaceful people who demanded a strict religion. The Donatists claimed to be the one true Catholic church, insisting that an evil priest could not administer sacraments. If you know about Catholic history, you realize how serious a problem this would be. St. Augustine organized riots against the Donatists in which many of them were killed. A man cursed by God, St. Augustine also organized riots against Jews, knowing that many of them would be killed.

His unsuccessful blending of Mani's doctrine of unconditional election into Christianity inspired John Calvin to blend the two successfully, although the philosophy of irresistible grace had to be invented later to patch up a fatal flaw in Calvin's system.

1 John 3:15 makes it clear: "... and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." There is no way that this evil man was a prophet sent from God to tell us to blend the pagan doctrines of man into the truth of God's Word.

Where the heck do you get this stuff, the comic books?

 

[childeye]

OK, I get it, but I hope you realize that there were many righteous men in the OT, men of faith, such as Abraham and David, who would certainly fall under "men worshiping in Spirit", although they didn't have the fullness of revelation - they did worship God with the proper attitude of humility, faith and obedience.

Regards

Certainly there were men of faith. I don't know what fullness of revelation they had, I don't even know what I have. Jesus said Abraham saw him and loved him. I know there's a Truth and it is God. I know He is Love and I know what Love is according to my personal experience. To me it is a sacrifice that must occur in opposition to one's own flesh. Christ's Love took the sacrifice to a level that goes beyond my ability to fathom. Can such a Love exist in me? My cross is just a tiny one, how will I know? If it does I must conclude it is God and not I.

 

[francisdesales]

Certainly there were men of faith. I don't know what fullness of revelation they had, I don't even know what I have. Jesus said Abraham saw him and loved him. I know there's a Truth and it is God. I know He is Love and I know what Love is according to my personal experience. To me it is a sacrifice that must occur in opposition to one's own flesh. Christ's Love took the sacrifice to a level that goes beyond my ability to fathom. Can such a Love exist in me? My cross is just a tiny one, how will I know? If it does I must conclude it is God and not I.

I am enjoying your responses, Larry.

Have a Happy Easter...

Joe

 

[Vince]

1 Timothy 2:3-6 is sometimes known as "The Saint Augustine Passage." It refutes two of Augustine's greatest errors: unconditional election and Mary worship.

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

 

[francisdesales]

1 Timothy 2:3-6 is sometimes known as "The Saint Augustine Passage." It refutes two of Augustine's greatest errors: unconditional election and Mary worship.

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

"Sometimes known as the St. Augustine passage"? By whom? Apparently, people don't know what St. Augustine actually taught. I wager you haven't read even ONE of his books?

Which of his writings says he worshiped Mary? Same ol' phony accusations v Catholics.

As to unconditional election, Augustine did believe in free will, you are confusing him with Calvin, who twisted what Augustine wrote. Augustine clearly taught the absolute sovereignty of God's Will, but he also taught that man was free, even while under grace. If you want to learn more about what Augustine ACTUALLY taught, read the following link, which is pretty fair, noting where Augustine fell short in some areas of his teachings (all theologians do...)

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Teaching of St. Augustine of Hippo

Maybe you should read some of his writings, rather than sentences taken out of context. I will say that some of his writings go further than the Church believed on the subject of "mass damnatia", but to make him out to be a pre-Calvinist who worshiped Mary and was "forced to become Catholic" is utterly ridiculous...

Regards

 

[Vince]

Francis, you and I went through this on another forum.

You challenged my statement that Saint Augustine was a murderer of Donatists and Jews.

I wrote a lengthy article, quoting various sources, showing that Saint Augustine not only murdered Donatists and Jews, but that his writings were used as justification for the Inquisition and other murders by the Catholic Church.

You responded by writing an article defending Saint Augustine's murders, claiming that the Donatists were a menace.

I researched the Donatists and found that they were peaceful, though strict, and that they did not practice murder.

The Bible says that we KNOW that no murderer has eternal life. I don't THINK that Saint Augustine is in Hell, I don't BELIEVE that Saint Augustine is in Hell, I KNOW that Saint Augustine is in Hell.

 

[Vince]

I want to deal with two errors that were introduced into this thread.

One writer felt that since the tares could not turn into wheat, it proved that they were predestined to Hell. The tares, however, do not symbolize "the lost." They symbolize false professors within Christianity. Most lost people are not tares. The new birth is a miracle, and NO ONE can turn himself into a Christian.

Another poster felt that this parable proved that a person who accepts Christ cannot be kept secure by Christ. But the tares are not Christians who lost their salvation. They were tares from the beginning. The wheat, however, did not turn into tares, showing that a genuinely-saved Christian can never lose his salvation.

 

[francisdesales]

Another poster felt that this parable proved that a person who accepts Christ cannot be kept secure by Christ. But the tares are not Christians who lost their salvation. They were tares from the beginning. The wheat, however, did not turn into tares, showing that a genuinely-saved Christian can never lose his salvation.

Thanks, but you are mistaken.

The issue is not whether God "CAN" do something, such as keep someone "secure by Christ". The issue is whether that "tare" was ever part of the Kingdom. The parable clearly says such a person WAS INDEED REMOVED from the Kingdom. Go back and read it carefully.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: Matt 13:41-42

It should be obvious that "once saved always saved" is not here...

We don't know who is wheat or who is a tare, at the end, when the angels come to reap. THAT is the point, not trying to tell us who is a tare or who is wheat based on what they did yesterday. We are not in a position to make the determination on whether a man in the Kingdom who is committing sin will return, OR whether a good man today may not turn to sin later.

So don't pull up anyone.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Francis, you and I went through this on another forum.

You challenged my statement that Saint Augustine was a murderer of Donatists and Jews.

I wrote a lengthy article, quoting various sources, showing that Saint Augustine not only murdered Donatists and Jews, but that his writings were used as justification for the Inquisition and other murders by the Catholic Church.

You responded by writing an article defending Saint Augustine's murders, claiming that the Donatists were a menace.

I researched the Donatists and found that they were peaceful, though strict, and that they did not practice murder.

The Bible says that we KNOW that no murderer has eternal life. I don't THINK that Saint Augustine is in Hell, I don't BELIEVE that Saint Augustine is in Hell, I KNOW that Saint Augustine is in Hell.

YOU KNOW AUGUSTINE IS IN HELL? Why, are you a demon?

Sorry, I already refuted your comical "article" that you wrote. Just because you wrote something doesn't make it so. Show me from secular sources that Augustine murdered anyone, or where the Catholic Church went out and murdered Donatists. Not from anti-Catholic "sources", people who just make stuff up. I'm talking about professional historians of the period.

Regards

 

[Vince]

YOU KNOW AUGUSTINE IS IN HELL? Why, are you a demon?

No, I'm a born-again Christian, and we KNOW that no murderer has eternal life. Drunk with the blood of the saints, the Catholic Church finds its moral justification for murder, along with other sins, in the writings and practices of Saint Augustine.

 

[jasoncran]

vince,i have never heard that the st.augustine murder jews nor the donatists. i am jewish as you know. i havent heard of that from my dad or other jews that i know. i can ask them. but i dont recall st.augustine doing that. i did hear that elsewhere and posted something to that effect and was challenged by vic to produce evidence and i couldnt so i backed off.