Bible Study Reconciled to God

[beloved57]

Its a present tense verb, denoting in state, and permanency..The only thing that can change this state is regeneration, but thats limited to the elect or the children of God, not the children of the devil..

You are not addressing the objection. The fact that the people to whom Jesus is speaking are now in a state of permanent and total depravity does not mean that they always were.

people are born by nature children of wrath..eph 2:


3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

This is pretty basic..

The children of the devil remain that way, the children of God are given a new birth..

 

[Drew]

Its a present tense verb, denoting in state, and permanency..The only thing that can change this state is regeneration, but thats limited to the elect or the children of God, not the children of the devil..

You are not addressing the objection. The fact that the people to whom Jesus is speaking are now in a state of permanent and total depravity does not mean that they always were.

people are born by nature children of wrath..eph 2:


3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

This is pretty basic..

Things are not so simple. You are reading the phrase "by nature" a certain way that may be questionable. I will repost material I have aleady posted in respect to how one reads the phrase "by nature":

Consider the phrase "by nature" as per this from Ephesians 2.

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

When we read this as 21st century westerners, we think that when the phrase “by nature†is used, a statement is being made about our fundamental constitution. On such a reading, and noting the content of verse 1, it might indeed appear that Paul is saying that it is impossible for us to respond freely to God’s grace. After all, it is in the very nature of our mind to reject anything from God.

But there is precedent for Paul using the term "by nature" to really say "by birth".

Here is an example, Galations 2:15:

We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles

Clearly, Paul means "by birth" here. He is not asserting that Jews are born with fundamentally different inner constitutions than Gentiles.

And the Greek word rendered as "by nature" is the same word as used in a clearly "by birth" sense in Galatians 2:15. Here is Ephesians 2:1-3:

Ephesians 2:3 reads perfectly well with a "by birth" reading. And being "children of wrath" by birth in no way rules out a free will response to God in the way that being "children of wrath" by fundamental inner constitution indeed might.

So, unless and until the ambiguity of what Paul means by the phrase "by nature" is resolved Ephesians 2:1-3 does not support the notion that we cannot freely accept a gift of grace.

 

[beloved57]

Things are not so simple. You are reading the phrase "by nature" a certain way that may be questionable. I will repost material I have aleady posted in respect to how one reads the phrase "by nature":

By nature is quite simple..all people are born sinners by nature and alienated from the Life of God..if you have material to post that is contrary to what i just said, then its worthless..

 

[Drew]

Things are not so simple. You are reading the phrase "by nature" a certain way that may be questionable. I will repost material I have aleady posted in respect to how one reads the phrase "by nature":

By nature is quite simple..all people are born sinners by nature and alienated from the Life of God..if you have material to post that is contrary to what i just said, then its worthless..

I have shown from another usage of the phrase "by nature" that Paul can use this phrase to refer to mean "by birth".

I suggest that you need to deal with this and not simply decide for everyone that you know better than Paul what he means by the phrase "by nature".

Now tell us. In the following from Galatians, is Paul using the term "by nature" to denote "by birth" or not:

We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles

Clearly, Paul means "by birth" here. He is not asserting that Jews are born with fundamentally different inner constitutions than Gentiles.

Let's be clear here. You argued that by using the phrase"by nature" in the Ephesians text, Paul is saying that is in our nature - our fundamental inner make-up - that we are alienated from God. And you leverage that interpretation to make the conclusion that "by our very nature" we cannot turn to God.

Well, I have provided a text where Paul uses the term "by nature" to mean "by birth". Paul clearly does not mean, in the Galatians text, that Jews are of a fundamentally different form of humanity than Gentiles. He clearly means "by birth" when he uses the term "by nature".

I am born a Canadian "by nature". Does that mean I cannot freely renounce my citizenship and cease being a Canadian? Of course not.

You are choosing to interpret "by nature" in the Ephesians context in a way that supports your position. I have clearly shown how the phrase "by nature" might means something entirely different. Please engage my case and show us why your interpretation of "by nature" is the correct one for the Ephesians context.

 

[beloved57]

I have shown from another usage of the phrase "by nature" that Paul can use this phrase to refer to mean "by birth".

By birth, all people are born estranged and at enimity with God..

 

[Drew]

I have shown from another usage of the phrase "by nature" that Paul can use this phrase to refer to mean "by birth".

By birth, all people are born estranged and at enimity with God..

Please support this claim with scripture. Where, precisely, does the scriptures say that we are at such emnity to God that we are incapable of freely recognizing this state and responding to a gift of grace.

Please give some specific texts. We have seen that Ephesians 2:3 does not work. Perhaps there are other texts.

 

[beloved57]

Please support this claim with scripture.

are you kidding ? Thats all you have been rejecting..start back at the OP

 

[Drew]

Please support this claim with scripture.

are you kidding ? Thats all you have been rejecting..start back at the OP

All right. Let's look at some of the texts you posted. Where, in either of these texts, is there any statement to the effect that we cannot freely accept God's gift of grace:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Please tell us where these texts tell us that we are unable to freely respond to God's grace?

 

[cyberjosh]

Not so..satan was already the enemy of God before adams sin..so that would mean his seed, or descendants was too..

I don't buy the idea that Satan has physical decendants, no matter how you interpret Genesis. Some messianic Psalms applied to Jesus also promise the Messiah perpetual 'seed' as well, but Jesus has no, nor ever will have any, physical descendants. It is primarily I believe a matter of "spiritual descent". Those who are "sons of their father the devil" are spiritually estranged from the Father God who made them, but that was the whole purpose of Christ coming to earth and offering himself as a sacrifice - to remedy that spiritual situation.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[beloved57]

I don't buy the idea that Satan has physical decendants,

Yes, they are spiritual descendants of satan in physical bodies..gen 3:

15And I[ God] will put enmity between thee[ satan] and the woman, and between thy[ satan] seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Jesus addresses this seed later jn 8:



44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

and matt 23:

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?


So you dont believe God nor his son Jesus christ..

 

[Drew]

I don't buy the idea that Satan has physical decendants,

Yes, they are spiritual descendants of satan in physical bodies..gen 3:

15And I[ God] will put enmity between thee[ satan] and the woman, and between thy[ satan] seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Jesus addresses this seed later jn 8:



44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

and matt 23:

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?


So you dont believe God nor his son Jesus christ..

These texts do not support this concept of spiritual descendents. They can be read as suggesting a relationship of wilfull submission to a father figure. While the wording is consistent with the notion of an inherited kinship to Satan, this is not the only way to read the text. To read the John 8 text as clearly indicating some kind of genetic inheritance is to bring a worldview to the text.

After all, we know that Paul refers to Abraham as the "father of all" who believe (Romans 4), not just those who share a genetic link to him. So we have a clear precedent of Paul using the "father-child" relationship in a sense which has nothing to do with "inheritance" in the sense that I believe you are suggesting.

 

[beloved57]

These texts do not support this concept of spiritual descendents

You do understand satan is a spirit dont you ? God says satan shall have a seed..

in gen 3: 15 the hebrew word for satans seed is
zera`:

seed, sowing, offspring

a) a sowing

b) seed

c) semen virile

d) offspring, descendants, posterity, children
e) of moral quality

1) a practitioner of righteousness (fig.)

f) sowing time (by meton)

So God is definitly predicting a offspring and descenants for the evil spirit satan..

Just as The Lord Jesus christ has a seed isa 53:

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

This too is a spiritual seed, in fact of the seed of the women in gen 3 15 but this seed takes on flesh and blood heb 2:

14Forasmuch then as the children[ the seed] are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil

so likewise, according to the purpose of God, satans seed too partakes of flesh and blood..

So your denial is against God and scripture..

 

[Drew]

These texts do not support this concept of spiritual descendents

You do understand satan is a spirit dont you ? God says satan shall have a seed..

in gen 3: 15 the hebrew word for satans seed is
zera`:

seed, sowing, offspring

a) a sowing

b) seed

c) semen virile

d) offspring, descendants, posterity, children
e) of moral quality

The careful reader will note that you have selected one meaning to the exclusion of the others. In partficular, note meaning (e) - "offspring in relation to moral quality". If one looked at that definition instead, there is no sense in which there is any necessary implication of being born into a hopelessly fallen state, from which one cannot "freely" choose to escape by accepting grace.

You are choosing one meaning of the Hebrew word that suits your view. I could equally well claim the meaning of "offspring in relation to moral quality". The Genesis 3:15 texts works perfectly well on such an interpretation. You choose to read "offspring" as "children" in the sense that implies a kind of genetic heritage. And so you conclude that the "devil's offspring" are somehow inheritors of a nature that is at irreconcilable emnity to God.

But there are other ways to legitimately read the Genesis 3:15 text.

 

[cyberjosh]

I don't buy the idea that Satan has physical decendants,

Yes, they are spiritual descendants of satan in physical bodies..gen 3:

15And I[ God] will put enmity between thee[ satan] and the woman, and between thy[ satan] seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Jesus addresses this seed later jn 8:



44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

and matt 23:

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?


So you dont believe God nor his son Jesus christ..

The conclusion of which is that we were all (you and I included) sons of the devil, subject to the god of this world who was blinding our eyes, before were were saved, no? We were born into the fallen nature after all.

Is that your point?

 

[beloved57]

The conclusion of which is that we were all (you and I included) sons of the devil

Nope, you have children of God and you have children of the devil..There are two different seeds..

gen 3:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel

The devil has a seed and the women has a seed..both are sinful by nature, but of two different seeds..

 

[cyberjosh]

The conclusion of which is that we were all (you and I included) sons of the devil

Nope, you have children of God and you have children of the devil..There are two different seeds..

gen 3:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel

The devil has a seed and the women has a seed..both are sinful by nature, but of two different seeds..

I'm sorry to say, but you can't build a doctrine on a one verse quotation. By the testimony of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. Plus your take on that would mean that those "born" sons of Satan could not possibly be saved (as I suggested however), and thus would be no better than Calvanism - condemned from birth.

 

[beloved57]

I'm sorry to say, but you can't build a doctrine on a one verse quotation

even if God makes the declaration ? God said this you know..gen 3:

15And I[ GOD] will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel

If you dont believe God, then you are not qulafied to be a witness for Him..you dont believe His word..

 

[stovebolts]

If you dont believe God, then you are not qulafied to be a witness for Him..you dont believe His word..

beloved57,

I do not believe this is a matter of disbelief per se in regard to cybershark's post, but rather mode of interpretation. Please refrain from such comments and follow the TOS and Guidelines of this site which you agreed to when you choose to post on this site.

Consider this your first warning.

Philippians 2:14-15 Do all things without murmuring and disputing: That you may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom you shine as lights in the world;


Colossians 4:6 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man.

 

[beloved57]

I do not believe this is a matter of disbelief per se in regard to cybershark's post, but rather mode of interpretation

I believe it is disbelief and to say it is a matter of inerpretation is only a escape art to disbelief..I will not refrain from posting my opinion of what a person believes, if it contradicts what i know to be truth..what kind of rule is that, when discussing religon ?

 

[beloved57]

Colossians 4:6 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man.

This is in the context of believers in a local assembly , not when doing the work of evangelism..Here are some scriptural guidelines for evangelistic work..

2 tim 4:

2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

5But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

paul when doing evangelistic work, did not always come accross with kind words..acts 13:

9Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.

10And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

This was not a brother in christ paul was speaking to, because he perverted the ways of truth..The same paul who wrote col 4:6 spoke these words too..so you must not take verses out of context to fit your mode of thinking..if you want to promote pauls and christ examples, then dont be selective..but be for real..

christ in His evangelistic work, spoke harsh to false teachers too..

jn 8:

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

so i would appreciate it if you quit trying to make me accept folk as my brethern in the Lord, when i believe they teach and believe lies..

Thank You..