REDEMPTION OF ISRAEL AT THE SECOND COMING

[reba]

Agree jasonc

 

[WIP]

 

[Malachi]

Its not what it said.

That is a profound response. If one repeats something again and again, it comes true.

 

[Jim Parker]

.
Since Christians are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption according to Eph 4:30, is there the possibility those of Israel being sealed of Rev 7:3-8 are the very exceptions talked of in Rom 9:6, . . they are not all Israel, which are of Israel? If the 144,000 are not Israel that is saved, and actually shown with Jesus in Rev 14:1, who are they?

It seems to me that they are ALL Israel.
See Ezekiel 37:1-14
In particular:
Eze 37:12-14 Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people; and I will bring you home into the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land; then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken, and I have done it, says the LORD.

 

[n2thelight]

Why is it people think only Jew's make up Israel?

 

[Jim Parker]

Why is it people think only Jew's make up Israel?

The apostle Paul says otherwise (Gal 3:7) but this thread is about those who are "natural" Israel, that is, descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

iakov the fool

 

[beloved57]

Malachi

BELIEVING ISRAEL: THE “GOOD OLIVE TREE”

Yes that is correct, so that means Believing Gentiles become part of the Good Tree of Believing Israel.

 

[n2thelight]

Who is Israel?That's the question.

 

[n2thelight]

Some Christians are of the opinion that the Jews of today represent all 12 tribes of Israel, others believe that they only represent two.

Years ago I was talking to a Jewish believer on this very subject. I was explaining to him that Jews represent only two tribes and not 12 and he asked me a question: "What do Jewish scholars have to say about this?" I thought that was a fantastic question and told him I'd check it out. I spent a few months visiting synagogues with libraries, several public and county libraries making photocopies of pages from books written by Jewish rabbis, scholars, historians and theologians. I was only interested in Jewish thought on the issue. Not one of them maintained the position that the Jews of today represent all 12 tribes. They hold the position that the Jews represent only 2 tribes: Judah and Benjamin. In their opinion the 10 tribes are still "lost." I even made phone calls to rabbis and asked them this question. "They're lost, we don't know where they are," they all told me.

That being said, why all the confusion and debate over the 10 tribes amongst certain Christian groups? My guess is that some have preconceived interpretations of scripture and will hold to these beliefs no matter what evidence to the contrary is presented. Also, popular books dealing with the subject of eschatology have been written with the premise that the Jews represent “all Israel” and have influenced millions. Hal Lindsey’s book, The Late Great Planet Earth, has sold 30,000,000 copies and is based on the premise that the Jews represent all Israel.

At the same time there’s absolutely no confusion or debate in Jewish academia on this issue. They all agree that the 10 tribes are still lost. This belief that the Jews represent all 12 tribes is an erroneous Christian doctrine -- it’s a "Christian" invention. It's unbiblical and false and I’m going to try to prove it in this article. Have you ever noticed that "Christian" groups that hold this position never quote Jewish sources to prove their point? The reason is there aren’t any. There’s not a Jewish scholar in the past 2000 years, that I’m aware of, that maintains the position that the modern-day Jews represent all 12 tribes. So why do many Christians hold to these beliefs? Or, to put it another way, why do some Christian scholars disagree with Jewish scholars on this issue? There’s a reason why it isn’t “The 12 Tribes of Judah” but that’s what some misguided Christians, and Jews, have made it.


"The question before the Rabbis was only whether they would ever return, not whether they had ever returned. This distinction is critical, because many people, both Jews and non-Jews, erroneously assume that whenever Israel or the Jews are mentioned either in the Hebrew Prophets, Writings, or in post-Biblical literature, that all twelve tribes are included in the reference. Such an assumption ignores the Rabbinic position that the Ten Tribes were deported and had not returned as of the 2nd Century C.E., a position which is clearly borne out in all of the Hebrew Prophets and in many post-Biblical writings" (Will the Ten Tribes Return? Dennis Jones, United Israel web site).

The biblical and historical facts concerning the tribal makeup of modern-day Judaism will create problems for those who have written books dealing with end-times events because it adds a whole new chapter into the eschatological mix. However, it's time to put this issue to rest. It's time to get our facts straight. It's time to investigate this issue with an unbiased point-of-view. It's called "rightly dividing the word of truth..." (2 Timothy 2:15).

http://www.hope-of-israel.org/howmanytribes.html

 

[smaller]

.
Since Christians are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption according to Eph 4:30, is there the possibility those of Israel being sealed of Rev 7:3-8 are the very exceptions talked of in Rom 9:6, . . they are not all Israel, which are of Israel? If the 144,000 are not Israel that is saved, and actually shown with Jesus in Rev 14:1, who are they?

The twelve thousand of twelve is a symbolic number of completed perfected Israel. It has nothing to do with the actual number, 12,000. Just as the number 666 has nothing to do with the literal number 666. It's also symbolic.

 

[smaller]

Who is Israel?That's the question.

Indeed. :nod

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

 

[smaller]

Some Christians are of the opinion that the Jews of today represent all 12 tribes of Israel, others believe that they only represent two.

Years ago I was talking to a Jewish believer on this very subject. I was explaining to him that Jews represent only two tribes and not 12 and he asked me a question: "What do Jewish scholars have to say about this?" I thought that was a fantastic question and told him I'd check it out. I spent a few months visiting synagogues with libraries, several public and county libraries making photocopies of pages from books written by Jewish rabbis, scholars, historians and theologians. I was only interested in Jewish thought on the issue. Not one of them maintained the position that the Jews of today represent all 12 tribes. They hold the position that the Jews represent only 2 tribes: Judah and Benjamin. In their opinion the 10 tribes are still "lost." I even made phone calls to rabbis and asked them this question. "They're lost, we don't know where they are," they all told me.

That being said, why all the confusion and debate over the 10 tribes amongst certain Christian groups? My guess is that some have preconceived interpretations of scripture and will hold to these beliefs no matter what evidence to the contrary is presented. Also, popular books dealing with the subject of eschatology have been written with the premise that the Jews represent “all Israel” and have influenced millions. Hal Lindsey’s book, The Late Great Planet Earth, has sold 30,000,000 copies and is based on the premise that the Jews represent all Israel.

At the same time there’s absolutely no confusion or debate in Jewish academia on this issue. They all agree that the 10 tribes are still lost. This belief that the Jews represent all 12 tribes is an erroneous Christian doctrine -- it’s a "Christian" invention. It's unbiblical and false and I’m going to try to prove it in this article. Have you ever noticed that "Christian" groups that hold this position never quote Jewish sources to prove their point? The reason is there aren’t any. There’s not a Jewish scholar in the past 2000 years, that I’m aware of, that maintains the position that the modern-day Jews represent all 12 tribes. So why do many Christians hold to these beliefs? Or, to put it another way, why do some Christian scholars disagree with Jewish scholars on this issue? There’s a reason why it isn’t “The 12 Tribes of Judah” but that’s what some misguided Christians, and Jews, have made it.


"The question before the Rabbis was only whether they would ever return, not whether they had ever returned. This distinction is critical, because many people, both Jews and non-Jews, erroneously assume that whenever Israel or the Jews are mentioned either in the Hebrew Prophets, Writings, or in post-Biblical literature, that all twelve tribes are included in the reference. Such an assumption ignores the Rabbinic position that the Ten Tribes were deported and had not returned as of the 2nd Century C.E., a position which is clearly borne out in all of the Hebrew Prophets and in many post-Biblical writings" (Will the Ten Tribes Return? Dennis Jones, United Israel web site).

The biblical and historical facts concerning the tribal makeup of modern-day Judaism will create problems for those who have written books dealing with end-times events because it adds a whole new chapter into the eschatological mix. However, it's time to put this issue to rest. It's time to get our facts straight. It's time to investigate this issue with an unbiased point-of-view. It's called "rightly dividing the word of truth..." (2 Timothy 2:15).

http://www.hope-of-israel.org/howmanytribes.html

Approaching this subject matter from a genealogical point of view is a waste of time.

In every way the division of the tribes are symbolic. Yes, the division itself was real in the day, but it was meant to be understood from symbolic conveyance perspectives.

Judah for example is symbolic of the HEAD. Jesus, from the tribe of Judah IS THE HEAD of the church. The Head is currently separated from the body here on earth.

What we saw in Israel was a precursor to what we also see in the N.T. It's symbolism laid upon symbolism and really needs to be understood along those kinds of lines.

Looking at Israel in the flesh from the seat of the fleshly perspectives will derive little if anything.

Matthew 8:20
And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

A similar symbolic overtone is also found in the tomb where the "head wrapping" was separated from the body wrapping. These matters are very subtle, very numerous and will escape the sights of many or the majority.

As to Israel being saved? Yes, every last person of Israel who has ever lived will undoubtedly be saved. A very easy scripture case to make.

So the real questions on this matter is not 'who is Israel' but rather who isn't. That's where the scriptural information is the most intense and where the most difficult battle is found and fought on a personal level.

 

[smaller]

If you look at a map of how the tribes of Israel were accorded their land you will see an upside down body construct, with Judah hung at the bottom.

If you understand the separation of the tribes, you will see Judah, the head, and the ravenous wolf, Benjamin, which is a picture of what severed the body of the tribes, the ravenous wolf. These are all symbolic matters through and through.

God speaks entirely in SYMBOLS. Hosea 12:10. If any believer is not schooled in Gods Language they will not and can not hear Him.

 

[Eugene]

The twelve thousand of twelve is a symbolic number of completed perfected Israel. It has nothing to do with the actual number, 12,000. Just as the number 666 has nothing to do with the literal number 666. It's also symbolic.

I agree, but who are they shown with Christ that are sealed?

 

[OzSpen]

And that's the salvation which will save all Israel.
It's not a free pass to sin for Jews.
Paul said "ALL Israel will be saved." I'm not going to second guess him. I figure God can work it out.

Jim,

This article is a very brief overview of the issues at stake: 'Will all Israel be saved in the end times?' (GotQuestions?)

I don't understand it that 'ALL Israel will be saved' but we either accept this view or go with replacement theology (i.e. the church is Israel). Literal Israel seems to be the meaning in context.

Rom 11:26 (ESV) states: 'And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”'.

'In this way' (ESV), 'so' (RSV, NRSV) is the Greek houtws (I've used w to transliterate the omega as this forum software doesn't like o with an ellipse), for which there are 4 possible interpretations:

1. The temporal meaning of 'and then', meaning after certain events have taken place;
2. It could introduce a consequence or conclusion;
3. The consequence meaning connected to 'just as it is written';
4. Linking it to what came before, which Douglas Moo considers to be the preferred meaning (Moo's commentary, The Epistle to the Romans 1996:720).

So if this verse is connected to what precedes it (Rom 11:11-25 ESV), which is summarised in Rom 11:25b, then

God imposes a hardening on most of Israel while Gentiles come into the messianic salvation, with the Gentiles' salvation leading in turn to Israel's jealousy and her own salvation. But this means houtws, while not having a temporal meaning, has a temporal reference; for the manner in which all Israel is saved involves a process that unfolds in definite states' (Moo: 1996:720)

Up to Rom 11:26 in Romans chs 9-11, the word 'Israel' has been used 10 times and on each occasion it has referred to ethnic Israel and not religious Israel or replacement Israel.

How God will save 'all Israel' is his business and in his plan. This is not an easy passage of Scripture to interpret. However, 'all Israel' does not mean 'every Israelite' and that difference is important. 'All Israel' as in OT refers to the whole nation (corporate).

The MAJOR difficulty I have with interpretation of Rom 11:26 (ESV) is that 'saved', if it is intended to mean eternal salvation, throughout Scripture is based on belief in the Messiah/Jesus. How can the nation of Israel be 'saved' when much of it has been in unbelief? I have a great difficulty in accepting John MacArthur's Dispensational view:

All Israel must be taken to mean just that—the entire nation that survives God’s judgment during the Great Tribulation. The common amillennial view that all Israel refers only to a remnant redeemed during the church age does injustice to the text. Paul’s declaration about all Israel is set in clear contrast to what he has already said about the believing Jewish remnant which the Lord has always preserved for Himself' (Will all Israel be saved? John MacArthur)

Oz

 

[Malachi]

I don't understand it that 'ALL Israel will be saved' but we either accept this view or go with replacement theology (i.e. the church is Israel). Literal Israel seems to be the meaning in context.

This will certainly not circumvent the requirements to obey the Gospel and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. What we find in the OT prophecies is that God will gather all the Jews from around the world supernaturally, bring them to Israel, cause them to finally see there true Messiah standing before them, cause them to mourn, repent, be converted, and then be saved by grace. The ones who are rebels will damn selves. But the purpose of gathering *all Israel* is to settle the Jews by their tribes in the Promised Land (extending from the Nile to the Euphrates).

 

[Malachi]

The twelve thousand of twelve is a symbolic number of completed perfected Israel. It has nothing to do with the actual number, 12,000. Just as the number 666 has nothing to do with the literal number 666. It's also symbolic.

There is absolutely no reason to apply symbolism to the detailed description of the 144,000 redeemed Jews.

1. They are Jews belonging to the 12 tribes of Israel.
2. The number and tribe of each one is stated to give a total of 144,000.
3. They are not only redeemed Jews, but literally virgins who follow the Lord Jesus Christ.
4. Because they are raptured during the Tribulation, we see them singing before the throne of God.
5. We can reasonably conclude that they are a microcosm of redeemed and restored Israel on earth after the Second Coming of Christ.

There are certain schools of theology which insist on treating almost everything in Revelation as symbolic, but that simply turns Scripture on its head. The things which are symbolic are clearly identified as symbolic, e.g. the candlesticks represent the churches, and the stars represent the angels in Revelation 1.

 

[Jim Parker]

However, 'all Israel' does not mean 'every Israelite' and that difference is important. 'All Israel' as in OT refers to the whole nation (corporate).

That is a very important distinction.

The MAJOR difficulty I have with interpretation of Rom 11:26 (ESV) is that 'saved', if it is intended to mean eternal salvation, throughout Scripture is based on belief in the Messiah/Jesus.

But, we know that understanding of the word "saved" cannot be completely accurate since Enoch, Moses, and Elijah are all with the Lord.
I think we need to take a good look at what we mean by the word "saved."

jim

 

[reba]

The Cross is the redemption of mankind

 

[Jim Parker]

The Cross is the redemption of mankind

Amen.
It certainly is.
And what exactly does that mean?