REDEMPTION OF ISRAEL AT THE SECOND COMING

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Malachi said:
There are certain schools of theology which insist on treating almost everything in Revelation as symbolic, but that simply turns Scripture on its head. The things which are symbolic are clearly identified as symbolic, e.g. the candlesticks represent the churches, and the stars represent the angels in Revelation 1.
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Most of Revelation is "symbolic" in that it is the writer's best effort to relate in human language the ecstatic, apocalyptic visions he was allowed to see. They are so awesome and overwhelming that it is literally impossible to relate them with great accuracy into human language.

To unequivocally state, with complete assurance, that such and such a vision means exactly "this" is, IMHO, a very good indication that the speaker is an amateur or even a fraud. To base Doctrine on them is the work of a fool or a charlatan.

The books of Revelation and Daniel and Ezekiel have been a gold mine (literally) for TV evangelists and the like boldly declaring their latest revelation (no pun intended) fresh from the Holy Spirit directly to them, in person.

The Gospels, and especially the letters, are written, for the most part, in plain language. (Jesus uses parables and didn't speak explicitly to those who were only looking for a means to entrap Him.) Those contain the information we need to "work out our salvation in fear and trembling."

Jesus told us to be about our work when He returns. (Mat 24:45-51)
Trying to unscramble what God has purposely scrambled is not one of our assignments.

Mic 6:8 He has showed you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

At the judgment, there won't be any questions on what the visions of revelation meant.
 
Malachi said:
This will certainly not circumvent the requirements to obey the Gospel and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. What we find in the OT prophecies is that God will gather all the Jews from around the world supernaturally, bring them to Israel, cause them to finally see there true Messiah standing before them, cause them to mourn, repent, be converted, and then be saved by grace. The ones who are rebels will damn selves. But the purpose of gathering *all Israel* is to settle the Jews by their tribes in the Promised Land (extending from the Nile to the Euphrates).
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Malachi,

You provided not one Scripture to support your statements here. This seems more like your opinion/interpretation, but I have no Scriptures to examine concerning your view because you have not given them here.

Oz
 
reba said:
The Cross is the redemption of mankind
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Actually, that is not what 1 Tim 4:10 (ESV) states: 'That is why we labour and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Saviour of all people, and especially of those who believe'.

The Cross, i.e. Jesus, brings redemption to all people but it is only effective for those who believe.

Oz
 
Jim Parker said:
That is a very important distinction. :thumbsup

But, we know that understanding of the word "saved" cannot be completely accurate since Enoch, Moses, and Elijah are all with the Lord.
I think we need to take a good look at what we mean by the word "saved."

jim
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i agree that we need to examine the meaning of the word, 'saved'. What is your understanding when that word is placed in, 'All Israel will be saved' (Rom 11:26 ESV)?
 
Jim Parker said:
The apostle Paul says otherwise (Gal 3:7) but this thread is about those who are "natural" Israel, that is, descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

iakov the fool
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Wouldn't that definition include Ishmael and Esau among others? Or do you mean just natural descendants of Jacob? Jacob wasn't even Israel his entire life.
 
OzSpen said:
Malachi,
You provided not one Scripture to support your statements here. This seems more like your opinion/interpretation, but I have no Scriptures to examine concerning your view because you have not given them here. Oz
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I was actually supporting your view. As to Scriptures, there are far too many to include in a thread. So let's focus on just one from the New Testament.
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them,It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (Acts 1:6,7).

Most Christians probably read this and just move on. But we should stop and ask ourselves some questions regarding this question by the apostles.

1. When was this question asked? After 40 days of teaching by Christ from the Scriptures between His resurrection and ascension.
2. Did it indicate that the kingdom of Israel would be restored? Absolutely.
3. Did it indicate that Jesus the Messiah-King would be the one to restore that kingdom? Absolutely.
4. Where did the apostles gain this insight? From the OT prophecies concerning Israel.
5. Why are most Christians ignorant about this matter? Because most preachers and teachers do not preach and teach from the OT.
6. Has the Church Age intervened to postpone this fulfillment? Absolutely.
7. Can we be certain that the kingdom of Israel will be restored following the Second Coming of Christ? Absolutely.
 
OzSpen said:
i agree that we need to examine the meaning of the word, 'saved'. What is your understanding when that word is placed in, 'All Israel will be saved' (Rom 11:26 ESV)?
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It is my current understanding that we should take that to mean, "all FAITHFUL Israel will be saved."
Israel was "elected" to be a light to the world. By keeping the Law they would show the world what is God's will for mankind.
They failed so, one thing that Jesus did as "Israel" the "Prince of God" was to keep the law perfectly thus demonstrating faithfulness as Israel as well as demonstrating God's righteousness in that God was faithful to redeem mankind from death and to open the gates of heaven to the promised remnant of faithful children of God.

hmmmm long sentence.....

jim
 
Malachi said:
I was actually supporting your view. As to Scriptures, there are far too many to include in a thread. So let's focus on just one from the New Testament.
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them,It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (Acts 1:6,7).

Most Christians probably read this and just move on. But we should stop and ask ourselves some questions regarding this question by the apostles.

1. When was this question asked? After 40 days of teaching by Christ from the Scriptures between His resurrection and ascension.
2. Did it indicate that the kingdom of Israel would be restored? Absolutely.
3. Did it indicate that Jesus the Messiah-King would be the one to restore that kingdom? Absolutely.
4. Where did the apostles gain this insight? From the OT prophecies concerning Israel.
5. Why are most Christians ignorant about this matter? Because most preachers and teachers do not preach and teach from the OT.
6. Has the Church Age intervened to postpone this fulfillment? Absolutely.
7. Can we be certain that the kingdom of Israel will be restored following the Second Coming of Christ? Absolutely.
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What were the only scriptures available to the apostles?
The OT. The NT hadn't been written yet.
Who is the descendant of David who is the King of Israel?
That would be Jesus.
When does He receive that Kingdom?
Mathew 28:18. That's around 33AD.
Has the Church Age intervened to postpone this fulfillment?
No. Jesus is King of ALL of heaven and ALL of earth RIGHT NOW. (Mathew 28:18 again)
Can we be certain that the kingdom of Israel will be restored following the Second Coming of Christ?
NO. The kingdoms of the world will all become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ. (Rev 11:15)

God does not restore the kingdom of Israel, He established HIS kingdom, the Kingdom of God.
It will come in its fullness at Jesus' second coming.
No where in the Gospels did Jesus talk about restoring the kingdom of Israel. He came to establish the kingdom of God on earth.
And Jesus' answer to the question of the apostles at Acts 1:6 "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" did not state that the Kingdom of Israel was to be restored AT ALL. The restoration of the Kingdom of Israel was the Apostles' idea. They were not yet filled with the Holy Spirit and were still chasing down rabbit trails.
Jesus answered: Act 1:7 "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority."
That is: what happens and when it happens is none of your business.
Don't worry or be speculating about kingdoms.
Act 1:8 "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Sama'ria and to the end of the earth."
IOW: THAT is you business. Preach the GOSPEL.

Earthly kingdoms are of no consequence; they come and they go.

The kingdom of God, however, is eternal.

You will either spend eternity there or in the outer darkness.
Debating about a "restored" kingdom of Israel is a waste of time.

Imho

Iakov the fool :confused2
 
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Malachi said:
There are certain schools of theology which insist on treating almost everything in Revelation as symbolic, but that simply turns Scripture on its head.
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Employing symbolism as meaning "not real" is a fault of readers not understanding.

The things which are symbolic are clearly identified as symbolic, e.g. the candlesticks represent the churches, and the stars represent the angels in Revelation 1.
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There are scriptural rules for understanding all things symbolic/parable/allegories etc.

Even the term Israel is a symbolic associative term for example.

Anywhere the terms like, likened or as is employed it's associative. The speakings of God throughout the O.T. are all similitude per God's own dictates in Hosea 12:10 for example. Jesus said the same, His Words being parable, Luke 8:11, Psalm 78:1-2.

Paul allegorized the law and the lives of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hagar and Ishmael in Gal. 4.

IF believers don't know how he got to that bottom line, how he did it, what it means, what scriptural rules from the O.T. he followed to get there they are quite simply clueless about the entire majority of the matters and particularly Revelation as it is entirely symbolic, allegorical and parable associative in meaning, yet entirely REAL in the senses and ways of the style of communications God Himself employs.

We don't literally see Christ in us. But it is a Spiritual Reality by faith. Not literal meaning is going to derive that sight nor is flesh able to figure it out either. The last thing the flesh will see or understand is that all of Israel shall be saved, yet alone figure out why that is a fact from scriptures:

Numbers 23:21
He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the Lord his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.
 
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Just to stir the pot a bit...

There are not 12 tribes of Israel.
There's more.

First off there is no tribe of Joseph...only his sons Ephraim and Manasseh. (Manasseh could be two... East and West)
And then Levi.... usually not counted as it belongs to God.

So in the Revelation song about the"12" tribes....look for who is there and who is missing....like Dan.

So how many tribes of Israel are there?
 
Gad
Asher
Naftalie
Simeon
Levi
Judah
Dan
Benjamin
Manasseh
Ephraim
Reuben
Issachar
Zebulun


That's 13....:nod

And not counting Dinah the daughter.
 
Malachi said:
Dan is excluded in both Ezekiel and Revelation, and God has given us a reason for its exclusion in Scripture also. Hence there are only 12 tribes.
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Manasseh is included as well as Joseph...that's kinda redundant...
Ephraim is excluded as well. And now Levi is included?

Something is afoot.

Because usually sibling groups are mentioned together. But in Revelation the sibling groups are ignored.

Maybe something else other than the flat obvious is being said...

Ephraim was never known for being exorbitantly bad...nor excellent either. Manasseh was known for apostasy though...
Dan was as well.

Why include Joseph?
Why include Levi? It was their first time to ever be listed.
 
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