Reformed Theology Makes God The Author of Sin!

[SolaScriptura]

In this clip, R C Sproul, who was a leading teacher of "reformed" theology, says, "God Ordains Whatsoever Comes to Pass".

According to the basic meaning of the word, "ordain", we have:

"(formal) (of God, the law or fate) to order or command something; to decide something in advance"

ordain verb - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

Definition of ordain verb in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. Meaning, pronunciation, picture, example sentences, grammar, usage notes, synonyms and more.

www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com

This makes God the AUTHOR of Sin, and therefore cannot be Holy and Perfect and Righteous and Just, etc, etc.

This is TOTALLY UNBIBLICAL!

 

[LeviR]

In this clip, R C Sproul, who was a leading teacher of "reformed" theology, says, "God Ordains Whatsoever Comes to Pass".

According to the basic meaning of the word, "ordain", we have:

"(formal) (of God, the law or fate) to order or command something; to decide something in advance"

ordain verb - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

Definition of ordain verb in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. Meaning, pronunciation, picture, example sentences, grammar, usage notes, synonyms and more.

www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com

This makes God the AUTHOR of Sin, and therefore cannot be Holy and Perfect and Righteous and Just, etc, etc.

This is TOTALLY UNBIBLICAL!

Adam was made of the earth and is therefore called “the natural man”. The natural man was very good as far as can be said of a natural man.
Adam could not have sinned even though the man from dust unless God gave man a law.
It was by the giving of a law that sin is known.
By making a man from dust and giving him a law, it was inevitable he should sin.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Adam was made of the earth and is therefore called “the natural man”. The natural man was very good as far as can be said of a natural man.
Adam could not have sinned even though the man from dust unless God gave man a law.
It was by the giving of a law that sin is known.
By making a man from dust and giving him a law, it was inevitable he should sin.

did God "ordain" the fall and sin?

 

[jasonc]

electedbyHim

Ugh once again the confusion of ordaining an act of evil is confused with God actually desiring sin .

Instead it must be God was so worried that He had to scramble to figure out how to fix the creation he made .

When it's God allowed Adam to choose to fall and already planned for it and dealt with it and the process is falling into his plan .nothing catches Him off guard .

Other wise why pray when God doesn't know your need .

I'm not even a calvinist but get the doctrines .

 

[LeviR]

did God "ordain" the fall and sin?

We can’t say God’s law is not good.
Nor can we say the natural man is perfect in that he could not be tempted by evil and therefore sin.

I do not believe Adam was immortal when he was created. Else the tree of life would not have been planted.

After Adam sinned, he was kept from the tree of life because a sinner cannot freely eat from it and live forever.

God created man with the plan to make him perfect. To make him eligible for the kingdom of heaven.

 

[LeviR]

Man’s responsibility is to recognize his hopeless condition and seek mercy and forgiveness.
God made a plan for that.

 

[SolaScriptura]

electedbyHim

Ugh once again the confusion of ordaining an act of evil is confused with God actually desiring sin .

Instead it must be God was so worried that He had to scramble to figure out how to fix the creation he made .

When it's God allowed Adam to choose to fall and already planned for it and dealt with it and the process is falling into his plan .nothing catches Him off guard .

Other wise why pray when God doesn't know your need .

I'm not even a calvinist but get the doctrines .

if, as you say, that God actually "planned" that Adam and Eve sinned, and thereby the Fall of the entire human race. Then it is very obvious, that God is the actual author of sin.

No one can "plan" something, and then carry their "plan" out, and not be directly responsible for their actions?

How could God have "planned" the Fall, and then say that this grieved Him, and that He had to destroy the human race, apart from Noah and family?

This makes God as not knowing what is going on in the world!

 

[SolaScriptura]

We can’t say God’s law is not good.
Nor can we say the natural man is perfect in that he could not be tempted by evil and therefore sin.

I do not believe Adam was immortal when he was created. Else the tree of life would not have been planted.

After Adam sinned, he was kept from the tree of life because a sinner cannot freely eat from it and live forever.

God created man with the plan to make him perfect. To make him eligible for the kingdom of heaven.

you still don't answer the question, did God plan the Fall and thereby sin against Himself?

 

[LeviR]

you still don't answer the question, did God plan the Fall and thereby sin against Himself?

I’m not a Calvinist.
I explained my understanding.
The law is good.
Man was not made perfect.
When man is made perfect, he is incapable of sin.

God knew what would happen. But He did not force man to sin.
Man is tempted by his own desires. His own desires give birth to sin.

 

[Who Me]

you still don't answer the question, did God plan the Fall and thereby sin against Himself?

God created Adam with free will. Adam could choose to obey or disobey.
God is not responsible for Adams choice, yes God knew that Adam would sin.

Would you prefer Adam to have had no choice, or a God who could be surprised by his creation.

 

[LeviR]

God created Adam with free will. Adam could choose to obey or disobey.
God is not responsible for Adams choice, yes God knew that Adam would sin.

Would you prefer Adam to have had no choice, or a God who could be surprised by his creation.

I wouldn’t call it “free will”. I’d call it an inability of his nature to live up to God’s demands

 

[SolaScriptura]

God created Adam with free will. Adam could choose to obey or disobey.
God is not responsible for Adams choice, yes God knew that Adam would sin.

Would you prefer Adam to have had no choice, or a God who could be surprised by his creation.

as I have said in the OP, Reformed theology says that God has preordained all things that comes to pass. The fact that God preordains all things, must also include our sins, otherwise it is not "ALL things"!

 

[SolaScriptura]

The Reformed theologian, Wayne Grudem writes as follows:

"In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery" (Systematic Theology, p.331. emphasis mine)

God "ordains" that we carry out evil deeds, and then after following His "ordination", He holds us accountable? Wow, if this is not making God the "author" of sin, then I don't know what it means. for sure the Holy Bible does NOT teach this anywhere. But for those who hold that God has "decreed everything that comes to pass", this is what they would have to teach!

 

[LeviR]

The Reformed theologian, Wayne Grudem writes as follows:

"In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery" (Systematic Theology, p.331. emphasis mine)

God "ordains" that we carry out evil deeds, and then after following His "ordination", He holds us accountable? Wow, if this is not making God the "author" of sin, then I don't know what it means. for sure the Holy Bible does NOT teach this anywhere. But for those who hold that God has "decreed everything that comes to pass", this is what they would have to teach!

After their sin, Eve blamed the serpent. That didn’t work. Yes, she was deceived and punished with pain upon child birth. But not to be put to death.
Adam, he blamed God for giving him woman. That didn’t work either.
God punished Adam with death and to return to where he came from.
Because Adam was not deceived, his death caused the death of Eve because she was flesh of his flesh.
Adam brought death to all man.
The serpent, he was punished to spend the remainder of his day licking dust.

 

[jasonc]

if, as you say, that God actually "planned" that Adam and Eve sinned, and thereby the Fall of the entire human race. Then it is very obvious, that God is the actual author of sin.

No one can "plan" something, and then carry their "plan" out, and not be directly responsible for their actions?

How could God have "planned" the Fall, and then say that this grieved Him, and that He had to destroy the human race, apart from Noah and family?

This makes God as not knowing what is going on in the world!

He knew and planned .

You can't argue that way .

One by planning to allow Adam to choose and then letting Satan decieve Satan is just semantics .

If I was plotting to kill your spouse ,you had the power , to stop and let it happen .you are as guilty .

god let that happen

Seeing what a person's does and using it the way God does .but I guess you don't believe that Jesus let's us choose sin and let's us suffer from it and uses that to teach us.

That is the same thing .he is the author and finisher of our faith not us he grows our faith .not us.

 

[SolaScriptura]

He knew and planned .

You can't argue that way .

One by planning to allow Adam to choose and then letting Satan decieve Satan is just semantics .

If I was plotting to kill your spouse ,you had the power , to stop and let it happen .you are as guilty .

god let that happen

Seeing what a person's does and using it the way God does .but I guess you don't believe that Jesus let's us choose sin and let's us suffer from it and uses that to teach us.

That is the same thing .he is the author and finisher of our faith not us he grows our faith .not us.

God knew about the Fall and sin, YES. God planned them, ABSOLUTELY NOT! this is IMPOSSIBLE

God FOREKNOWS all things, but does not FOREORDAIN all things.

Does God FOREORDAIN, murder, rape, adultery, fornication, genocide, at the most evil and heinous crimes, etc, etc?

Did God FOREORDAIN the Holocaust, and ALL of the exteremly wicked and evil things that Hitler did?

 

[jasonc]

God knew about the Fall and sin, YES. God planned them, ABSOLUTELY NOT! this is IMPOSSIBLE

God FOREKNOWS all things, but does not FOREORDAIN all things.

Does God FOREORDAIN, murder, rape, adultery, fornication, genocide, at the most evil and heinous crimes, etc, etc?

Did God FOREORDAIN the Holocaust, and ALL of the exteremly wicked and evil things that Hitler did?

For it is appointed for all men to die ..
Satan or God makes that call?

Who ordained your death you or God .
Who made the date and manner of death .
You or Satan or God .

He allows sin as he knows it will occur and intervenes at His prerogative .

Making none sin ,let's it happen as he foreknew it .

Did Adam surprise God ? Nope .

Did Satan outwit ,out smart God nope

God allows sin for his glory . We alone are given a choice and responsibility for it is on us.

gods mercy or justice meted is giving Glory .

Try not to be so biased in that you trip over old English usage .

Good or evil that God uses upon his saints is for the good of the sinner who has repented

Romans 8 :28.


What you meant for evil ,God meant for good said Joseph to his own brother who sold him for slavery .

 

[SolaScriptura]

For it is appointed for all men to die ..
Satan or God makes that call?

Who ordained your death you or God .
Who made the date and manner of death .
You or Satan or God .

He allows sin as he knows it will occur and intervenes at His prerogative .

Making none sin ,let's it happen as he foreknew it .

Did Adam surprise God ? Nope .

Did Satan outwit ,out smart God nope

God allows sin for his glory . We alone are given a choice and responsibility for it is on us.

gods mercy or justice meted is giving Glory .

Try not to be so biased in that you trip over old English usage .

Good or evil that God uses upon his saints is for the good of the sinner who has repented

Romans 8 :28.


What you meant for evil ,God meant for good said Joseph to his own brother who sold him for slavery .

Regardless of how you word it, the answer is very clear, IF God fore ordained all things, then He IS AUTHOR of sin. Period.

 

[jasonc]

Regardless of how you word it, the answer is very clear, IF God fore ordained all things, then He IS AUTHOR of sin. Period.

Ordained the death of Jesus


Murderer is a sin

Who planned the death of the cross ,?

Jesus did.

For the power was given to you to crucify me .for if it wasn't then you wouldn't be able to set me free.

Acts 2:23

God the father murdered Jesus ?

He planned the penalty to be paid that way .
You imply God murders .

I dont . Nor does any reformed person.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Ordained the death of Jesus


Murderer is a sin

Who planned the death of the cross ,?

Jesus did.

For the power was given to you to crucify me .for if it wasn't then you wouldn't be able to set me free.

Acts 2:23

God the father murdered Jesus ?

He planned the penalty to be paid that way .
You imply God murders .

I dont . Nor does any reformed person.

If you were to order someone to murder for you, are you in any way responsible? Would a judge find you guilty of anything?