Reformed Theology Makes God The Author of Sin!

[LeviR]

Okay, so what does that have to do with God (supposedly) creating Adam and Eve with a sinful nature?

Would you agree that covetousness is sinful?
Would you agree that it is a sin of desire?
Would you agree Eve desired the fruit?

Would you agree with this:

13Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

When the desires of the flesh has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and sin when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

That is the origin of evil!

That was the condition of Adam and Eve when they were created. And Adam’s sin has brought death to all man like him. Because God forbids the desires of the flesh and blood man made from dust.

 

[LeviR]

Free

The OP posts a video of R.C. Sproul. And I just pulled this up from his site.

“In many ways, covetousness can be seen as the one sin that gives birth to all the others. Adam and Eve coveted God’s knowledge and ate the forbidden fruit in order to make themselves wise,…”

The Tenth Commandment | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org

The answer to covetousness is not the absence of all desire, as in Buddhism, but rather the cultivation of contentment (1 Tim. 6:6–10). It can be a long journey

www.ligonier.org

It seems even ligonier ministries knows what went down in the garden.

 

[LeviR]

Who you gonna blame?

 

[Free]

If you comprehend my posts you wouldn’t need to keep asking after I answered.

Please stop with the personal attacks. You’re making assumptions that, so far, are unwarranted, as well as fallaciously begging the question and equivocating. If you would just answer my questions, that would go a long way to moving this conversation forward.

 

[LeviR]

Please stop with the personal attacks. You’re making assumptions that, so far, are unwarranted, as well as fallaciously begging the question and equivocating. If you would just answer my questions, that would go a long way to moving this conversation forward.

Respectfully, what part of what I said do you not understand?

I replied to all your questions with answers. I can’t help if you reject them.

 

[Free]

Respectfully, what part of what I said do you not understand?

I replied to all your questions with answers. I can’t help if you reject them.

You just aren't answering my questions. I have no time for dishonest debate. I'm going to step out of this one.

 

[SolaScriptura]

In no way whatsoever does it follow that God created Adam and Eve with a sinful nature. He created then in his image, which includes the ability to reason and likely with the ability to choose between obedience or disobedience. The latter is as close to free will as man has ever gotten, but it does not mean that God created them with a sinful nature. That idea is nowhere in Scripture.

Please answer my questions.

How then was it possible for perfect Adam and Eve to have sinned, when they are Created perfect?

Where did they get the ability to disobey God and sin against Him?

If humans have a free will, to do either good or bad, then they must have always had the ability and inclination to sin against the Lord

 

[SolaScriptura]

So God personally himself slew his son ?

You are tripping over this .arguing that to plan of redemption is murder when God said only blood of a man ,one sinless man purge sin

For before the foundation of the world we that are saved were chosen

That was planned for God knew and let sin .

You are arguing this.
god doesn't get shocked by sin and already planned to save us.

While saying God doesn't ordain ,make create evil.

Cherry picking what the doctrines of the reformed say ,which is the same thing.

God knew who ,would sin ,let them sin and used it to further his plan to save those who would be saved

Strange.God planned and foresaw Jesus dying and told the prophets.somethkng he foreknew and said would be and you argue otherwise

You accuse me things that I don't even believe!

 

[Who Me]

as I have said in the OP, Reformed theology says that God has preordained all things that comes to pass. The fact that God preordains all things, must also include our sins, otherwise it is not "ALL things"!

There is adifference between knowing something will happen and causing it to happen.

From your promotion of this theologian you support the idea that man is not a free agent.

 

[LeviR]

How then was it possible for perfect Adam and Eve to have sinned, when they are Created perfect?

Where did they get the ability to disobey God and sin against Him?

If humans have a free will, to do either good or bad, then they must have always had the ability and inclination to sin against the Lord

It would never have been possible for Adam to sin unless there was a law given to him. Where there is no law, there is no sin.
By God giving Adam the law not to eat of the fruit, sin was now possible.
Because Adam was created with human flesh, he was created to have desires of that flesh.
The KJV refers to it as “lust of the flesh” and “sin in the flesh”.
It was Eve’s flesh that desired the fruit because it was pleasant to the eye, good for food, and desired to make her wise.
Eve was allowing her flesh to rule over what we would call our better judgment. She was giving into her fleshly desire for the fruit.
Eve was not having “free will”, she was in a battle with her own flesh.
She was struggling with the desire to eat the fruit or to obey what Adam had told her about eating it.

Man cannot blame God for creating him with human flesh that has its own desires. Nor can he blame God for giving law which exposes man’s sinfulness.
Adam and Eve’s sinfulness of their flesh was exposed when they realized they were naked. They realized what they had done was wrong and that what God said was right.
But the fact remains, God had warned them to not eat the fruit. And God held them accountable for it.

 

[JLB]

Sure. The way I read it, the serpent inflamed Eve’s covetousness by telling her she would not die but be as the angels.
That’s all it took, she was lit afire with her desire and took and did eat.

How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
Isaiah 14:12

Satan defiled her (weakened her) when he initiated a conversation with her and she began to dialog with him instead of doing what Jesus did and speaking the word of God.

Keep your heart with all diligence,
For out of it spring the issues of life.
Proverbs 4:23

If we have the Spirit of God in our heart then we can impart grace to those who hear us.

If we are defiled with evil things then we will defile others as we engage in communication which is communion (common union) or fellowship.

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. Ephesians 5:11

But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. 1 Corinthians 5:11

Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?
2 Corinthians 6:14-15


Jesus warned us about becoming defiled by those who are themselves defiled with all manner of evil.

So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.” Mark 7:1-23






JLB

 

[LeviR]

How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
Isaiah 14:12

Satan defiled her (weakened her) when he initiated a conversation with her and she began to dialog with him instead of doing what Jesus did and speaking the word of God.

Keep your heart with all diligence,
For out of it spring the issues of life.
Proverbs 4:23

If we have the Spirit of God in our heart then we can impart grace to those who hear us.

If we are defiled with evil things then we will defile others as we engage in communication which is communion (common union) or fellowship.

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. Ephesians 5:11

But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. 1 Corinthians 5:11

Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?
2 Corinthians 6:14-15


Jesus warned us about becoming defiled by those who are themselves defiled with all manner of evil.

So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.” Mark 7:1-23






JLB

Why is it so important to know that Adam and Eve coveted the fruit, and that covetousness exposes the sinfulness of the flesh?

For one thing, it tells us the origin of evil. It lies in the desires of the flesh. The 10th commandment sums up all sin and its origin.

Your quote from Isa 14 is actually prophecy not history. It refers to a king who is yet to be revealed is my understanding. Others may understand it as a king who has already been revealed some time after Isaiah’s prophecy.

 

[JLB]

Why is it so important to know that Adam and Eve coveted the fruit, and that covetousness exposes the sinfulness of the flesh?

For one thing, it tells us the origin of evil. It lies in the desires of the flesh. The 10th commandment sums up all sin and its origin.

Your quote from Isa 14 is actually prophecy not history. It refers to a king who is yet to be revealed is my understanding. Others may understand it as a king who has already been revealed some time after Isaiah’s prophecy.

Lucifer.

How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
Isaiah 14:12


I used this scripture to show that he weakens us to sin.

 

[SolaScriptura]

There is adifference between knowing something will happen and causing it to happen.

From your promotion of this theologian you support the idea that man is not a free agent.

God foreknows all things, because He IS GOD.

God does NOT foreordain all things, because He cannot in anyway foreordain any sinful actions. This is an impossibility for Him.

Humans have a free will, but even this is is not totally FREE, as there are restrictions.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Lucifer.

How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
Isaiah 14:12


I used this scripture to show that he weakens us to sin.

There is no "Lucifer" in the Hebrew.

The word is the noun "hêylêl", which literally means, "to shine", or, "shining one"

 

[LeviR]

There is no "Lucifer" in the Hebrew.

The word is the noun "hêylêl", which literally means, "to shine", or, "shining one"

It’s a false Christ. One who claims for himself to be God.
He is also known as the Antichrist and man of sin.

 

[SolaScriptura]

It’s a false Christ. One who claims for himself to be God.
He is also known as the Antichrist and man of sin.

yes, but there is no "Lucifer" in the Hebrew Bible

 

[LeviR]

yes, but there is no "Lucifer" in the Hebrew Bible

It appears the Latin has given this man and king the name Lucifer.

 

[jasonc]

You accuse me things that I don't even believe!

You don't believe that God didn't plan ,intend to make something that could destroy itself and others .

God isn't all knowing that he didn't want man to choose and didn't stop that.

That allowance for man to rebel wasnt accounted for .utilimatlely you really don't think this out.

The reformed teach that God let Adam fall to show those that believe that he is a God of justice ,and mercy .

God allowing and using evil isn't not is it taught by them that he wants it only that with freewill that evil be and God contains it to save those he will save .

You are arguing that God lets evil and essentially is the same argument that the reformed teach .

 

[Free]

How then was it possible for perfect Adam and Eve to have sinned, when they are Created perfect?

What do you mean by "perfect"?

Where did they get the ability to disobey God and sin against Him?

Well, they clearly chose to disobey, so God must have created them with that ability.

If humans have a free will, to do either good or bad, then they must have always had the ability and inclination to sin against the Lord

Since God created Adam and Eve with the ability to chose to obey or disobey him, then it follows that God created them with the potential to sin. It does not follow that they were created with a sinful nature or created with an inclination to sin.

Do you believe Adam and Eve were created in the image of God? What do you think that includes?