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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Reforming the Church
- Thread starter JM
- Start date
H
Henry
Guest
The Church is as it always has been, the people. NOT the place, not the organitzation and so on. So, in that the "Church" in the true sence of the word does need reformed, however Christians do need to step back and remember some of the values and practices that have been lost over the centuries.
I speak of course to the Home Church movement, which is seekinjg to bring back the below list of practices, while sticking to orthodoxed, historical, and biblical doctrines.
1. Small home church gatherings, where people can actually see and know everyone.
2. Full meal fellowship and communion, no more cracke crumbs and thimbles of juice, but a full meal which is what Jesus did.
3. Church leader as servants and not as masters.
4. Government by consensus.
5. No clergy laity distinctions.
6. Full interactive meetings, not single man preaching while all others listen.
Jesus as the central focus, emphasizing realtional, family intergrated church, where loveing Jesus and each other is the rulling factor..
I speak of course to the Home Church movement, which is seekinjg to bring back the below list of practices, while sticking to orthodoxed, historical, and biblical doctrines.
1. Small home church gatherings, where people can actually see and know everyone.
2. Full meal fellowship and communion, no more cracke crumbs and thimbles of juice, but a full meal which is what Jesus did.
3. Church leader as servants and not as masters.
4. Government by consensus.
5. No clergy laity distinctions.
6. Full interactive meetings, not single man preaching while all others listen.
Jesus as the central focus, emphasizing realtional, family intergrated church, where loveing Jesus and each other is the rulling factor..
sparrow
Member
Yes, Jason..
I would say that we definitely need to reform the way we interact.....
We need to deal with the issues of the day.. from a Christian perspective.
This seems to be somewhat lacking still.
And we need to learn once again, to interact with people in ways that
let Jesus shine through.
I would submit, however that all church sizes have their place in
the Kingdom...
mark
I would say that we definitely need to reform the way we interact.....
We need to deal with the issues of the day.. from a Christian perspective.
This seems to be somewhat lacking still.
And we need to learn once again, to interact with people in ways that
let Jesus shine through.
I would submit, however that all church sizes have their place in
the Kingdom...
mark
P
presbuteros
Guest
The Church established by our Lord does not need reform. Never has. He established it in Truth and she continues along in Truth because He continues to be her Head.
The Church has remained unchanged in doctrine for 2000 years.
The Church has remained unchanged in doctrine for 2000 years.
H
Henry
Guest
As I said the Church in itself are the poeple and does not need to be reformed, becuase it is already formed. However we have left behind many of the practices of the early Church, especially in the matter of authority. We have basically made kings of men in the Church.
In the NT Church all were brothers, no one was above the other, and government was done by consensus and led with the wisdom of the elders.
It was a community, and now it is an organization and some cases a business.
So, I agree the Church has not changed in the last two thousand years, at the heart. However we have lost the practices and traditions that made the early church the family communinity they where.
In the NT Church all were brothers, no one was above the other, and government was done by consensus and led with the wisdom of the elders.
It was a community, and now it is an organization and some cases a business.
So, I agree the Church has not changed in the last two thousand years, at the heart. However we have lost the practices and traditions that made the early church the family communinity they where.
E
evanman
Guest
We do NOT need a "New Apostolic Reformation"!
H
Henry
Guest
Evanman said--We do NOT need a "New Apostolic Reformation"!
I am not sure what you mean, but I do think that we need to revive the practices and values of the NT Church, so much has been lost in the large Churches we currently have.
Just yestarday, I wrote to the pastor of the mega Church that I attended before coming to the Home Church Movement, and explained that I was not all that happy with the fact that we collected one day $100,000 for a building fund, and that same day we only collected $1,000 for feeding the hungry.
And get this the pastor aske for dollars for the building, and spare change for the feeding of the poor. And the $100,000 came from one man.
Now, something is wrong with our Church instatuions when members are more willing to give to bricks, then for people.
This is not what you would find in the NT Church, not even close. Collections when taken were meant for the carring of the needy.
In the end of the building cost, it was over 3.5 million. WOOWWW !!!!! And for the hungry some where around $12,000 for the year. That is a big difference to be sure.
So, I do not think the Church has stopped existing, but I do think the Church has forgotten what is important, and we have made Church buildings and not people.
I am not sure what you mean, but I do think that we need to revive the practices and values of the NT Church, so much has been lost in the large Churches we currently have.
Just yestarday, I wrote to the pastor of the mega Church that I attended before coming to the Home Church Movement, and explained that I was not all that happy with the fact that we collected one day $100,000 for a building fund, and that same day we only collected $1,000 for feeding the hungry.
And get this the pastor aske for dollars for the building, and spare change for the feeding of the poor. And the $100,000 came from one man.
Now, something is wrong with our Church instatuions when members are more willing to give to bricks, then for people.
This is not what you would find in the NT Church, not even close. Collections when taken were meant for the carring of the needy.
In the end of the building cost, it was over 3.5 million. WOOWWW !!!!! And for the hungry some where around $12,000 for the year. That is a big difference to be sure.
So, I do not think the Church has stopped existing, but I do think the Church has forgotten what is important, and we have made Church buildings and not people.
destiny
Member
I think the traditional tithe is one of the root causes for the condition of what some people refer to as the church.(personally i believe we are just a people)
Titheing and giving to a building puts people into catagories, you usually will see the biggest tithers holding the biggest positions and having the loudest voice regardless if they are appointed to them by God or not.
You have a bunch of hirelings and 'wealthy' people running the show instead of those called and appointed by God in alot of if not most of the churches of today.
I think that people should all chip in to keep the lights turned on and to see to the needs of those around them...thats it.
Let the Holy Spirit direct people in their giving.`
It's became a big institutional system and money is somewhere at the root of all that is wrong with it, keeping that big wheel turning.
Titheing and giving to a building puts people into catagories, you usually will see the biggest tithers holding the biggest positions and having the loudest voice regardless if they are appointed to them by God or not.
You have a bunch of hirelings and 'wealthy' people running the show instead of those called and appointed by God in alot of if not most of the churches of today.
I think that people should all chip in to keep the lights turned on and to see to the needs of those around them...thats it.
Let the Holy Spirit direct people in their giving.`
It's became a big institutional system and money is somewhere at the root of all that is wrong with it, keeping that big wheel turning.
E
evanman
Guest
By "New Apostolic Reformation" I am referring to C.Peter Wagner's heresy:
http://www.cephasministry.com/apostles_reformation.html
http://www.cephasministry.com/apostles_reformation.html
H
Henry
Guest
evanman
Oh, I see. I will go and check out that web site. Thanks.
Henry
Oh, I see. I will go and check out that web site. Thanks.
Henry
Yes a big bump!!
Assuming you are talking about the man-made institution - I reckon it is too late.
However, among those who are the body of Christ there certainly needs to be continuing divine revelation.
Could you call that reformation? I guess it depends on what they do with the revelation.
Assuming you are talking about the man-made institution - I reckon it is too late.
However, among those who are the body of Christ there certainly needs to be continuing divine revelation.
Could you call that reformation? I guess it depends on what they do with the revelation.
N
Nocturnal_Principal_X
Guest
YES! A little Reformation now and again is a good thingâ€â€if it needs it. For one I think Liberal theology and a lax attitude about the great Commission (Evangelism) are far to prevalent in churches today. Now I have of course only list a few problems with the modern church but I am sure others can think of many others.
G
Georges
Guest
Oh.....there will be a reformation, or better termed "return, as in back to the Torah"....It's already predicted to occur during the Messianic Millennium....
C
cj
Guest
Georges said:
Sure is, and what else is predicted along with it?
How many does the bible say will join themselves to Satan again?
George, during the mellenium reign of Christ there will be a number of things taking place, the least of which will be taking place on this earth.
And I say "least" in regards to those who will be under the laws of Moses. For even the Lord declared that any under these laws is less than those who have entered into the kingdom of God.
How sad it is that you uphold the lesser work and not the greater work of God.
In love,
cj
C
cj
Guest
Henry said:
Henry, Henry, Henry.
The second you make a "the" out of "Home" you negate Christ, who is the Church.
Basically you are simply doing what you accuse others of doing. You're just participating in yet another work of Christianity.
Read your own condemning words....
"...which is seekinjg to bring back..."
Really?
"the Home" is seeking to bring back something?
And this list,... "the below list of practices, while sticking to orthodoxed, historical, and biblical doctrines", tell me, is the contents of this "list" what is really needed by believers today?
Do believers really need "practices", and "ortodoxed historical biblical doctrines"?
Or do believers simply need Christ,... the loving, living, moving Christ?
Henry, this loving, living, moving Christ is the reality of all practices and doctrines. He is the very foundation, ground and building of all things in God.
And look at what your concepts have done, caused you to itemize Him in a way that brings glory to the works of men rather than to the Person of His Name.
Like a dog to its vomit, a hog to its mud.
Funny, Paul used the word ministry, a word you have not used.
In love,
cj
I
Imagican
Guest
I am 45 years young. Seems like a lot of years to teenagers, but to me, it seems as though most have past by like a freight train with 45 cars on it. Boy, where did they go?
I bring up my age to show how little time I've been on this planet. But guys, the changes that I've seen in my little time here!!
Wasn't raised in the churches. Didn't hear much about 'religion' growing up. But, I met quite a few over the years that called themselves Christians. Most didn't even need to say so, it was fairly obvious in their life-styles. Regardless of their denomination, there was something quite common among them all.
Boy, have those days changed. Those that I encounter in the present are undistinguishable from the crowd. They are 'just' as concerned with their cars, vacations, shoes, watches, hairstyles, money, soap operas, sports, and jobs as people that don't even believe God exists.
They watch the 'same' shows on TV, same movies at the theater, listen to much of the 'same' music, drink the same beer, watch the same sports, and talk about sexy girls when they walk by. They smoke, drink, and quite a few that I have met are not immune to using obscenities in their vocabulary. They get mad when someone cuts them off in traffic or steps in line ahead of them. They turn their noses up at beggars on the street when asked for a dollar. They have the same prejudices against other races, religions, political parties. All in all, I see little that separates them from the 'rest of the world'.
When I speak to these people about God and Jesus, it's like talking to children who's only knowledge about Father and Son is that of children's stories. "Oh Jesus this, and Jesus that" is certainly a part of their conversations on Sunday, but catch them that afternoon when their team is loosing and all this is forgotten until 'next week'.
Does any of this sound familiar? Is this what the churches are 'teaching'? I know people that attend churches that encourage football parties, halloween for the children, Easter egg hunts, rock n roll bands, pool tables in the youth center, yoga classes, etc......... The list goes on and on. It's like anything to do with God or Christ has taken a back-burner to the entertainment of the individual.
I know that there are even going to be quite a few that read this post and say, "So"? And at this point I begin to wonder how we got SO lost. We allow God's name and Christ's name a tiny bit of our time each week and spend the rest of it trying our best to 'enjoy' the world around us.
I have been to your churches. The women in their nicest dresses, men in their best clothes and shoes. I've listened to your pastors weak words and watered down stories that take an hour to tell, based on 'TWO' lines of scripture. I've experienced the 'rock n roll', and pastor who seem more concerned with 'how many people they can get to 'run' down front' than teaching anything other than the most basic of scripture.
And I know that I'm not the only one that 'sees' all of this. Can there be any question that these are those referred to in Revelation? Those that will one day answer, "look at all the wonderful things that we've done in your name!". The church buildings that we've built, the children that we've fed, "look, we even have the movie of our pastor's visit to Africa to prove it". Guys, is this 'really' what being a 'Christian' is?
I point this out to others that are 'church people'. Their reply, "God wants us to be happy". Is this 'true'? Does God really only expect us to be Christians for an hour a week. Does He really 'not care' that we join the world in it's celebration of 'self'? And I'll bet that if I didn't say this there would be some of these 'same' people that would insist that participating in this 'charade' is 'better' than nothing. That we were commanded to participate in this 'play' regardless.
Do the churches need a modern day reformation? The fact that this thread was even started answers that question. Henry has offered some pretty good advice and no one gets it. It's not about us folks, it's about God, His Son and 'everybody' else!! Doesn't sound like much fun does it? Spending one's time in the Word and helping other people. Life just wouldn't be worth living if we had to give up our TV's and other entertainment would it? So what if we don't read the Word. So what if we don't help our neighbors, So what if the children run around and have a little fun before the service. So what if we are devoted more to football than God. And all the while the churches bending further and further to cater to 'these'. 'Cleaning up' their sermons so as not to offend anyone that throws a couple of bucks in their plate.
No guys, the churches are way to far removed from their purpose to ever change now. Everyone is 'happy' and having a good time. Masons as elders, homosexual music directors and even pastors. Performances instead of 'teaching'. This is what the people want so let's 'give it to em'.
The Bible tells us not even to sit and eat with such as these, yet we choose to 'worship' them and their buildings. A bit too late my friends. The churches are lost and there is very little of the Church that even exists in them anymore. Not surprising though, because if the Church was still strong, we would have a long way yet to go. Fortunately for the faithful there's not much more time to endure.
I bring up my age to show how little time I've been on this planet. But guys, the changes that I've seen in my little time here!!
Wasn't raised in the churches. Didn't hear much about 'religion' growing up. But, I met quite a few over the years that called themselves Christians. Most didn't even need to say so, it was fairly obvious in their life-styles. Regardless of their denomination, there was something quite common among them all.
Boy, have those days changed. Those that I encounter in the present are undistinguishable from the crowd. They are 'just' as concerned with their cars, vacations, shoes, watches, hairstyles, money, soap operas, sports, and jobs as people that don't even believe God exists.
They watch the 'same' shows on TV, same movies at the theater, listen to much of the 'same' music, drink the same beer, watch the same sports, and talk about sexy girls when they walk by. They smoke, drink, and quite a few that I have met are not immune to using obscenities in their vocabulary. They get mad when someone cuts them off in traffic or steps in line ahead of them. They turn their noses up at beggars on the street when asked for a dollar. They have the same prejudices against other races, religions, political parties. All in all, I see little that separates them from the 'rest of the world'.
When I speak to these people about God and Jesus, it's like talking to children who's only knowledge about Father and Son is that of children's stories. "Oh Jesus this, and Jesus that" is certainly a part of their conversations on Sunday, but catch them that afternoon when their team is loosing and all this is forgotten until 'next week'.
Does any of this sound familiar? Is this what the churches are 'teaching'? I know people that attend churches that encourage football parties, halloween for the children, Easter egg hunts, rock n roll bands, pool tables in the youth center, yoga classes, etc......... The list goes on and on. It's like anything to do with God or Christ has taken a back-burner to the entertainment of the individual.
I know that there are even going to be quite a few that read this post and say, "So"? And at this point I begin to wonder how we got SO lost. We allow God's name and Christ's name a tiny bit of our time each week and spend the rest of it trying our best to 'enjoy' the world around us.
I have been to your churches. The women in their nicest dresses, men in their best clothes and shoes. I've listened to your pastors weak words and watered down stories that take an hour to tell, based on 'TWO' lines of scripture. I've experienced the 'rock n roll', and pastor who seem more concerned with 'how many people they can get to 'run' down front' than teaching anything other than the most basic of scripture.
And I know that I'm not the only one that 'sees' all of this. Can there be any question that these are those referred to in Revelation? Those that will one day answer, "look at all the wonderful things that we've done in your name!". The church buildings that we've built, the children that we've fed, "look, we even have the movie of our pastor's visit to Africa to prove it". Guys, is this 'really' what being a 'Christian' is?
I point this out to others that are 'church people'. Their reply, "God wants us to be happy". Is this 'true'? Does God really only expect us to be Christians for an hour a week. Does He really 'not care' that we join the world in it's celebration of 'self'? And I'll bet that if I didn't say this there would be some of these 'same' people that would insist that participating in this 'charade' is 'better' than nothing. That we were commanded to participate in this 'play' regardless.
Do the churches need a modern day reformation? The fact that this thread was even started answers that question. Henry has offered some pretty good advice and no one gets it. It's not about us folks, it's about God, His Son and 'everybody' else!! Doesn't sound like much fun does it? Spending one's time in the Word and helping other people. Life just wouldn't be worth living if we had to give up our TV's and other entertainment would it? So what if we don't read the Word. So what if we don't help our neighbors, So what if the children run around and have a little fun before the service. So what if we are devoted more to football than God. And all the while the churches bending further and further to cater to 'these'. 'Cleaning up' their sermons so as not to offend anyone that throws a couple of bucks in their plate.
No guys, the churches are way to far removed from their purpose to ever change now. Everyone is 'happy' and having a good time. Masons as elders, homosexual music directors and even pastors. Performances instead of 'teaching'. This is what the people want so let's 'give it to em'.
The Bible tells us not even to sit and eat with such as these, yet we choose to 'worship' them and their buildings. A bit too late my friends. The churches are lost and there is very little of the Church that even exists in them anymore. Not surprising though, because if the Church was still strong, we would have a long way yet to go. Fortunately for the faithful there's not much more time to endure.