Reforming the Church

[mutzrein]

Imagican

I think I differ with you on a few things but with regards your comments about the so called church of today - it seems to be the same or similar in NZ.

Unlike you, I was brought up in a religious environment but can only attest to the things that you have witnessed.

It's funny in a sick kind of way becoz I always thought our pure unadulterated 'Godzone' would stay that way since we are on the other side of the globe. But no, the same drivel that spills out of the tube & the same professional approach to 'selling' the gospel has invaded our fair shores.

And sadly I don't consider the institution that is commonly called the church is really the body of Christ any more. If it were, then the fruit would reflect the vine.

 

[thehayesman]

Reforming

The church globally and locally is changing and reforming every day as believers grow and life moves forward. I would absolutely say that the church needs constant reformation and evolution.

Of course, I would not presume to know how it should be reformed at every time and place. No one could agree on exactly how, and I think that's the beauty of a community/body of believers. It takes a variety of churches and changes to produce growth and minister to a multi-cultural world.

colros:

 

[Henry]

cj


You are sure in the habbit of twisting people's words.

You have no clue what I am talking about and I can see that you are not really interested in listening, only putting your words into my mouth.

But never the less as clear as I can say this

the HOUSE CHURCH MOVEMENT, not the house but the movement, is seeking a return, a going back, do to again, what was done in the early church, BECUASE we want to honor Christ and we believe that is what he wants us to do.

You see, we put Christ in the center by seeking our practices to comform to his word.

You really do not know or understand what you are saying and need to put some of that pride up and just listen.

 

[Henry]

cj


You are sure in the habbit of twisting people's words.

You have no clue what I am talking about and I can see that you are not really interested in listening, only putting your words into my mouth.

But never the less as clear as I can say this

the HOUSE CHURCH MOVEMENT, not the house but the movement, is seeking a return, a going back, do to again, what was done in the early church, BECUASE we want to honor Christ and we believe that is what he wants us to do.

You see, we put Christ in the center by seeking our practices to comform to his word.

You really do not know or understand what you are saying and need to put some of that pride up and just listen.

 

[Henry]

cj


You are sure in the habbit of twisting people's words.

You have no clue what I am talking about and I can see that you are not really interested in listening, only putting your words into my mouth.

But never the less as clear as I can say this

the HOUSE CHURCH MOVEMENT, not the house but the movement, is seeking a return, a going back, do to again, what was done in the early church, BECUASE we want to honor Christ and we believe that is what he wants us to do.

You see, we put Christ in the center by seeking our practices to comform to his word.

You really do not know or understand what you are saying and need to put some of that pride up and just listen.

 

[mutzrein]

Henry - wasn't sure whether you were wanting to make that point so forcefully - 3 posts all the same - or perhaps there is a subliminal trinity connection. LOL

 

[Imagican]

And Guys,

I am in NO WAY trying to 'belittle' those that attend churches. I know that many have 'good intentions' as far as churches go. I simply point out that many of even those have been 'fed' water instead of even being fed milk.

The Bible warned us that a time would come when EVEN the VERY ELECT would be led to a 'different Gospel' than that offered by God, Christ and the apostles. I feel that that time has come and gone to the point that 'most' Christians aren't even aware of it anymore. And the churches are what has brought this about. Men teaching other men 'their' words instead of those of God. Why? For their own 'gain'. Power, worship, money. These are very tempting enticements that will often lead EVEN the VERY ELECT astray.

Yes, hayesman, the church IS constantly reforming. Unfortunately it continues in it's downward spiral into darkness by allowing the influence of the 'other' bright and morning star. A semblance of the holy but directed towards 'self' instead of God through His Son. Concentrating on 'warm fuzzies' instead of nurturing it's followers in sound doctrine and the strong Words of God.

Much like Billy Graham who 'started' a 'good work', the world has gotten in the way and now the churches teach something so 'watered down' that eventually it will evaporate all together into something that would have been unrecognizable to those that 'started the churches'.

We ARE the Church if we choose to 'come to God' through His Son. We ARE the BODY that believe upon the name of Jesus Christ. Unfortunately, just saying that we believe does not a believer make. The churches have certainly made it very difficult to even allow the discernment of their followers. The different denominations are certainly more concerned with how 'fast' they can grow, and how much money they can make than offering anything of substance. People pleasing is what it takes to succeed in this theatrical forum that we call the 'church' today. But people pleasing pertains to the offerings of this world rather than the wholesome Word of God.

 

[soma]

If we look at the decrease of Christian actions, attitude, and tolerance, and the increase of verbal, abuse, condemning and Christian bullying. I think we need a change, maybe more inward reflection.

 

[cj]

cj


You are sure in the habbit of twisting people's words.

You have no clue what I am talking about and I can see that you are not really interested in listening, only putting your words into my mouth.

You're funny, I don't believe I twisted anything.

I wonder, is your conduct here the best that your "house-church" religion is able to achieve in you?

But never the less as clear as I can say this

the HOUSE CHURCH MOVEMENT, not the house but the movement, is seeking a return, a going back, do to again, what was done in the early church, BECUASE we want to honor Christ and we believe that is what he wants us to do.

So, what's different?

A movement of God's people has no seeking of its own it simply follows God.

What do you know about the Bretnren movement?

If little then perhaps you should take a little time out to see where they started and where they ended up.

Don't think so highly of your precious "movement".

You see, we put Christ in the center by seeking our practices to comform to his word.

That's wonderful, but according to what ministry?

You really do not know or understand what you are saying and need to put some of that pride up and just listen.

Oh, you think so huh. Well, thanks for your opinion on the matter, I'm sure God has noted it in His book.


In love,
cj

 

[Imagican]

Guys, Guys,

This isn't a boxing match. We can certainly offer our opinions without it being taken 'personal', right? Come on. It's a forum based on one of the most difficult things for people to agree upon that exists.

Cj, I am well aware of how dependant many are on churches. Sometimes more so than what really matters most. I fault no one for finding themselves in this position. How could it really be any other way with man though. If the churches were teaching the 'truth', most would be empty.

Perhaps you have found a 'good' church'. I have yet to manage this feat. What I have experienced in the churches that I have attended is something so theatrical and phony that I feel somewhat 'tarnished' upon leaving.

Henry has a point and it's really not that hard to see if one simply puts aside what they have been taught by the churches. The first Christians, (ones that we are sure were Christians according to the Bible), did not meet in 'fancy' buildings and hand a pastor their money to spend at 'their discretion'. They met wherever and pooled their resources to help establish other churches and to help those in need, especially orphans and widows. I have yet to attend a church where the pastor asked if anyone in the congregation 'needed' anything. Instead, they are constantly complaining about not getting enough money for what 'they' need.

I am NOT saying that your church is this way. I don't have any idea what kind of church you attend. But what I speak, I speak from my own experience and I've been to quite a few different ones.

We were commanded to gather in Christ's name. We were NOT told, however, to gather in specific denominations or groups. We were told that we are the Body. But we were also told not to even sit and eat with those that are lost. The only way I know to discern this is through the Word. I find that the churches I've attended and those that I've witnessed on the television are practically void of understanding concerning the Word.

There are those that would insist that I should attend a church such as these to 'help' bring about changes. This is nothing more than wishful thinking. Churches are ran by elders that pay money to make the decisions on doctrine and there's nothing that I can do but make waves in such an environment. And Cj, I've been to churches, BIG fancy churches, that have Masons as elders. I don't know about you or your knowledge of Masonry, but this 'stinks' of something 'totally' unrighteous.

Just a 'sign of the times' my friend. Things change, right? Yes, they do, but the Word has NOT changed a bit. Neither have God, nor His Son.

 

[cj]

It's a forum based on one of the most difficult things for people to agree upon that exists.

It wouldn't be if we just stuck to the person of Christ.

I fault no one for finding themselves in this position. How could it really be any other way with man though. If the churches were teaching the 'truth', most would be empty.

Its wonderful that you "fault no one", honestly, but I wonder, why can you say that?


And again you're right, no man is perfect, thus when men sin it should come as no surprise to any of us.


If the Churches were teaching the truth the Lord might have returned already.

Have you not heard that we believers can hasten His return?

Perhaps you have found a 'good' church'.

No, I have found proper ministry.

It is proper ministry that builds the Church.

I have yet to manage this feat.

Perhaps you are looking in all the wrong places.

What I have experienced in the churches that I have attended is something so theatrical and phony that I feel somewhat 'tarnished' upon leaving.

Its the reason my wife and I withdrew from Christianity, we found it to be against what we were understanding from our reading the bible.

Henry has a point and it's really not that hard to see if one simply puts aside what they have been taught by the churches.

Henry has a great point. I have never knocked Henry for meeting as he does. Never, not once.

But check this out,... Henry fails to see this in my speaking. The question is, "Why?"

Pride.

Henry is proud of what he is a part of, this house-church movement.

Thing is, there is no such thing as a "house-church movement", except in the minds of those who would make it into something.

Paul spoke of the economy of God in three different series of verses;...


Ephesians 1:10, "Unto the economy of the fullness of the times, to head up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in Him;"

Ephesians 3:9, "And to enlighten all that they may see what the economy of the mystery is, which throughout the ages has been hidden in God, who created all things,"

1 Timothy 1:4, "Nor to give heed to myths and unending genealogies, which produce questionings rather than God's economy, which is in faith."


This "economy" of God is simply one move of God, for God is one and moves by the one Spirit.

Now this one move of God can manifest itself in many different things, but it is still the one move of the one God.

And it is the one and only move that builds the body of Christ, which is called the Church.


Meeting in a "house-Church movement" does not in and of itself build the body of Christ, the Church.

In fact, simply meeting as a group of believers is not what builds the body of Christ, the Church.

This is the terrible lie that has been perpetrated on the believing body for almost 2000 years.


Tell you what, take some time and read the various speakings of Paul regarding this economy of God according to the context of the verses that surround them. Then come back and tell us what you think is the connecting point between God's economy and the building of His Church.


You're into revelation right, well read again what Paul says...

"And to enlighten all that they may see what the economy of the mystery is..."

That's speaking about pure revelation.

"... enlighten that they may see..."

In those words are the answer to building the Church of God.

But there is more that we need to know, what is it?

The first Christians, (ones that we are sure were Christians according to the Bible), did not meet in 'fancy' buildings and hand a pastor their money to spend at 'their discretion'.

No, but they sure as hell had just as many problems, and maybe even worse problems.

Have you ever read about what Jesus has to say regarding the seven Churches (in Revelation)?

Yet,... Jesus still called them the Church.

See, problems don't make or unmake the Church. Problems only hinder the expression of God in and through the Church, and thus also hinder His work on the earth.

They met wherever and pooled their resources to help establish other churches and to help those in need, especially orphans and widows. I have yet to attend a church where the pastor asked if anyone in the congregation 'needed' anything. Instead, they are constantly complaining about not getting enough money for what 'they' need.

I refer you to this that you said.... "I fault no one for finding themselves in this position. How could it really be any other way with man though."

I am NOT saying that your church is this way.

I have no Church, the only Church there is belongs to Christ.

I don't have any idea what kind of church you attend.

I meet with saints, its called fellowship, and its simply a local expression of the universal Church of Christ (not the denomination but according to the biblical terminology).

But what I speak, I speak from my own experience and I've been to quite a few different ones.

We were commanded to gather in Christ's name. We were NOT told, however, to gather in specific denominations or groups. We were told that we are the Body. But we were also told not to even sit and eat with those that are lost. The only way I know to discern this is through the Word. I find that the churches I've attended and those that I've witnessed on the television are practically void of understanding concerning the Word.

What you're saying is to various degrees true. But why are they like this?

There are those that would insist that I should attend a church such as these to 'help' bring about changes. This is nothing more than wishful thinking. Churches are ran by elders that pay money to make the decisions on doctrine and there's nothing that I can do but make waves in such an environment. And Cj, I've been to churches, BIG fancy churches, that have Masons as elders. I don't know about you or your knowledge of Masonry, but this 'stinks' of something 'totally' unrighteous.

I am very closely acquainted with masonry, there is a member of my family that was a grand-master on more than one occasion.

Just a 'sign of the times' my friend. Things change, right? Yes, they do, but the Word has NOT changed a bit. Neither have God, nor His Son.

God doesn't change though, and neither has His way for building up His Church.

Jesus declared, "I will build my Chruch."

And He is doing just that.

But there is more that God is doing, the building of the Church is for the most part a spiritual matter (unseen) at present, but God desires a sort of foretaste of its outward expression be revealed and thus, according to typology, He is calling upon His people to return to Jerusalem (out of Babylon) and rebuild the city and the temple.

In the OT how did people know God was on the earth? Only when the city of Jerusalem and its temple could be visibly seen.

Today, according to the way of the NT convenant, this means that God is calling upon His people to return to a way of living according to His way.

Jerusalem represents God's kingdom, and the temple represents God's method of having a relationship with the people of His kingdom.

When the Jews were in captivity in Babylon they developed a second way to worship God, a way that did not have Jerusalem and the temple as its center. This was because they thought that the old way was destroyed and so they attempted to institute a new way. This new way can even be seen in the false writings of the Talmud, written by Jews who were in captivity for the rest of the Jews who were in captivity (today many Jews think that the Talmud is also God speaking but it isn't, its man's understanding of what was needed for the time in which it was written).

Keep in mind that these Jews were never foresaken by God, they were still His people.

The same can be said about born-again believers in Christianity, all believer belong to God.

But like the Jews who were in captivity, not all believers are willing to leave behind what they have gained for themselves in this place (Babylon) and thus only a small remnant of believers are willing to return to Jerusalem, to rebuild its walls and the temple according to bring back in tthe true and only way of God.


Spiritually, where are the majority of Christians meeting today,... in spiritual Babylon or in spiritual Jerusalem?

Again, remember even Daniel worshipped God in Babylonian captivity.

But where does scripture tell us his heart was?..... Directed at Jerusalem, meaning, even as he worshipped God in Babylonian captivity Daniel's heart was for God's way, Jerusalem and the temple.

But only a small remnant have such a heart.


I believe that Henry's heart is for God's way, is for Jerusalem and the temple, but he needs to be very careful, as we all do, of becoming distracted on the journey back to Jerusalem and the temple.


If Henry says to me that he is on his way back to God's way and the house meetings that he participates in is simply a part of the journey, then I'll be one with him.

But sometimes when I read Henry's words I get the sense that he has found this part of the journey pleasant and perhaps wants to settle down here.

And so I admonish and encourage him to continue. Just as I would want him to do to me if I were to find somewhere along the way that I though was worthy of settling in.


There is only one place worthy of settling in, Jerusalem and the temple.


In love,
cj

 

[Imagican]

Nice post cj.

Please believe that I offered no ill will concerning what 'church' you attend. I had no idea so it was used as a 'general' term.

I am simply stuck in a place in between where I've been and where I'm going. When I attend 'fellowship' in what I call 'churches' I am left with a feeling of emptiness that does not exist when I study and gather with family. I see their struggling and emptiness and feel as though my simply 'seeing' this is an answer of sorts as to my 'attending' a church.

You mention the Churches spoken of/to in Revelation. And this too indicates that 'parts' of the 'true' Church are in serious trouble. What does that say for the rest of the 'Christian' world?

And a perpetuation of that which is 'wrong' doesn't make it 'right' over time. It just becomes 'more' accepted.

I have spoken to those that many would call 'anointed'. Huh? I find more Spirit held within the bars of prison than in these 'so called' houses of God and their leadership. So, is it possible that these are 'truly' chosen to be the sheppards of God's children? Not likely.

I will do the reading that you suggested and return with your answer.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

It's a forum based on one of the most difficult things for people to agree upon that exists.

It wouldn't be if we just stuck to the person of Christ.

This again posses the problem of defining the 'person of Christ.

I fault no one for finding themselves in this position. How could it really be any other way with man though. If the churches were teaching the 'truth', most would be empty.

Its wonderful that you "fault no one", honestly, but I wonder, why can you say that?

I can say this because I recognize the frailty of man and his willingness to follow even when their choices are wrong. How can I fault one over their ignorance. All have not the desire or initiative to seek 'the truth' and often instead follow that which is 'easiest' or 'most convincing'.


And again you're right, no man is perfect, thus when men sin it should come as no surprise to any of us.


If the Churches were teaching the truth the Lord might have returned already.

Have you not heard that we believers can hasten His return?

Yes, I have. But my understanding is that it will be for the sake of at least saving a 'few'. So, in this light, the only way that we could 'usher in' Christ's return any sooner would be to 'turn away' and encourage a 'turning away' rather than a 'spreading of the truth'.

Perhaps you have found a 'good' church'.

No, I have found proper ministry.

It is proper ministry that builds the Church.

I have yet to manage this feat.

Perhaps you are looking in all the wrong places.

I can't argue with that. But the problem cj is that I feel compelled to 'join with fellow Christians' but I am in need of 'more' than 'milk and cookies'. And quite often even these have left a 'bitter taste' in my mouth.

What I have experienced in the churches that I have attended is something so theatrical and phony that I feel somewhat 'tarnished' upon leaving.

Its the reason my wife and I withdrew from Christianity, we found it to be against what we were understanding from our reading the bible.

Understandable

Henry has a point and it's really not that hard to see if one simply puts aside what they have been taught by the churches.

Henry has a great point. I have never knocked Henry for meeting as he does. Never, not once.

But check this out,... Henry fails to see this in my speaking. The question is, "Why?"

Pride.

Henry is proud of what he is a part of, this house-church movement.

Thing is, there is no such thing as a "house-church movement", except in the minds of those who would make it into something.

Paul spoke of the economy of God in three different series of verses;...


Ephesians 1:10, "Unto the economy of the fullness of the times, to head up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in Him;"

Ephesians 3:9, "And to enlighten all that they may see what the economy of the mystery is, which throughout the ages has been hidden in God, who created all things,"

1 Timothy 1:4, "Nor to give heed to myths and unending genealogies, which produce questionings rather than God's economy, which is in faith."


This "economy" of God is simply one move of God, for God is one and moves by the one Spirit.

Now this one move of God can manifest itself in many different things, but it is still the one move of the one God.

And it is the one and only move that builds the body of Christ, which is called the Church.


Meeting in a "house-Church movement" does not in and of itself build the body of Christ, the Church.

In fact, simply meeting as a group of believers is not what builds the body of Christ, the Church.

This is the terrible lie that has been perpetrated on the believing body for almost 2000 years.


Tell you what, take some time and read the various speakings of Paul regarding this economy of God according to the context of the verses that surround them. Then come back and tell us what you think is the connecting point between God's economy and the building of His Church.

I have to admit, I am not sure 'exactly' what you are looking for here. I know that we have the 'law of Moses' as the guide or 'tutor' of God in order to 'teach' us 'love'. Love of Him and love of our neighbors. Following this only, however, is beyond the understanding of man. Therefore, it was needed that Christ come and offer us a 'living example', so that 'through Him' we could 'better understand' this 'love'. The only answer that I can give is that through an 'emulation' of this 'love' for God and 'love of Christ and our fellow man' we become a 'part' of Christ, the Body of Christ or the Church.


You're into revelation right, well read again what Paul says...

"And to enlighten all that they may see what the economy of the mystery is..."

That's speaking about pure revelation.

"... enlighten that they may see..."

In those words are the answer to building the Church of God.

But there is more that we need to know, what is it?

The first Christians, (ones that we are sure were Christians according to the Bible), did not meet in 'fancy' buildings and hand a pastor their money to spend at 'their discretion'.

No, but they sure as hell had just as many problems, and maybe even worse problems.

Not surprising though. And what do we have now? A world that mostly accepts and even 'befriends' the churches. Christ told us that if we are to pick up His cross and follow Him that we will be enemies of our own house. Makes one wonder if that's what the 'Christian' community is really doing.

Have you ever read about what Jesus has to say regarding the seven Churches (in Revelation)?

Yes

Yet,... Jesus still called them the Church.

See, problems don't make or unmake the Church. Problems only hinder the expression of God in and through the Church, and thus also hinder His work on the earth.

They met wherever and pooled their resources to help establish other churches and to help those in need, especially orphans and widows. I have yet to attend a church where the pastor asked if anyone in the congregation 'needed' anything. Instead, they are constantly complaining about not getting enough money for what 'they' need.

I refer you to this that you said.... "I fault no one for finding themselves in this position. How could it really be any other way with man though."

I am NOT saying that your church is this way.

I have no Church, the only Church there is belongs to Christ.

I accept your saying this. However, as far as the churches are concerned, I don't see much of 'the Church' visible there.

I don't have any idea what kind of church you attend.

I meet with saints, its called fellowship, and its simply a local expression of the universal Church of Christ (not the denomination but according to the biblical terminology).

But what I speak, I speak from my own experience and I've been to quite a few different ones.

We were commanded to gather in Christ's name. We were NOT told, however, to gather in specific denominations or groups. We were told that we are the Body. But we were also told not to even sit and eat with those that are lost. The only way I know to discern this is through the Word. I find that the churches I've attended and those that I've witnessed on the television are practically void of understanding concerning the Word.

What you're saying is to various degrees true. But why are they like this?

The desire in their heart is motivated by 'fear' instead of 'love'? 'Self benefit rather than concern for God or our fellow man?

There are those that would insist that I should attend a church such as these to 'help' bring about changes. This is nothing more than wishful thinking. Churches are ran by elders that pay money to make the decisions on doctrine and there's nothing that I can do but make waves in such an environment. And Cj, I've been to churches, BIG fancy churches, that have Masons as elders. I don't know about you or your knowledge of Masonry, but this 'stinks' of something 'totally' unrighteous.

I am very closely acquainted with masonry, there is a member of my family that was a grand-master on more than one occasion.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with their 'agenda' so I won't make any comments that might be taken personal.

Just a 'sign of the times' my friend. Things change, right? Yes, they do, but the Word has NOT changed a bit. Neither have God, nor His Son.

God doesn't change though, and neither has His way for building up His Church.

I agree.

Jesus declared, "I will build my Church."

And He is doing just that.

But there is more that God is doing, the building of the Church is for the most part a spiritual matter (unseen) at present, but God desires a sort of foretaste of its outward expression be revealed and thus, according to typology, He is calling upon His people to return to Jerusalem (out of Babylon) and rebuild the city and the temple.

In the OT how did people know God was on the earth? Only when the city of Jerusalem and its temple could be visibly seen.

You offer this symbolically of course.

Today, according to the way of the NT convenant, this means that God is calling upon His people to return to a way of living according to His way.

Jerusalem represents God's kingdom, and the temple represents God's method of having a relationship with the people of His kingdom.

When the Jews were in captivity in Babylon they developed a second way to worship God, a way that did not have Jerusalem and the temple as its center. This was because they thought that the old way was destroyed and so they attempted to institute a new way. This new way can even be seen in the false writings of the Talmud, written by Jews who were in captivity for the rest of the Jews who were in captivity (today many Jews think that the Talmud is also God speaking but it isn't, its man's understanding of what was needed for the time in which it was written).

Keep in mind that these Jews were never forsaken by God, they were still His people.

A few

The same can be said about born-again believers in Christianity, all believer belong to God.

But like the Jews who were in captivity, not all believers are willing to leave behind what they have gained for themselves in this place (Babylon) and thus only a small remnant of believers are willing to return to Jerusalem, to rebuild its walls and the temple according to bring back in tthe true and only way of God.


Spiritually, where are the majority of Christians meeting today,... in spiritual Babylon or in spiritual Jerusalem?

Come on. I think I've already answered this question.

Again, remember even Daniel worshipped God in Babylonian captivity.

But where does scripture tell us his heart was?..... Directed at Jerusalem, meaning, even as he worshipped God in Babylonian captivity Daniel's heart was for God's way, Jerusalem and the temple.

But only a small remnant have such a heart.


I believe that Henry's heart is for God's way, is for Jerusalem and the temple, but he needs to be very careful, as we all do, of becoming distracted on the journey back to Jerusalem and the temple.


If Henry says to me that he is on his way back to God's way and the house meetings that he participates in is simply a part of the journey, then I'll be one with him.

But sometimes when I read Henry's words I get the sense that he has found this part of the journey pleasant and perhaps wants to settle down here.

And so I admonish and encourage him to continue. Just as I would want him to do to me if I were to find somewhere along the way that I though was worthy of settling in.


There is only one place worthy of settling in, Jerusalem and the temple.


In love,
cj

 

[soma]

Imagican,

I have also noticed that churches have become mere gathering places for people and pigeons, not for realization, but for organization and dogmatism. If there are lectures and sermons, the purpose should be to awaken in one the longing for God the Father, not to put fear in the heart. One must hunger so deeply to experience Christ that one seeks Christ in earnest, uniting contemplation and action. Action in church without contemplation is blind because it is driven by a feverish activity or busy work that enslaves one to just become more encumbered or busier. Describing Christ without giving one a taste of its stillness is not enough because hearing about truth alone can't relieve one's hunger. One must experience Christ, the truth and and God the Father. Mechanical prayers and blind faith can't satisfy everyone, there must be some realization. This can be seen in the stillness of a realized person at work in the stillness of a mind anchored in pure consciousness. I sense that you and your wife are sincere Christians who are affecting many people just by your sincere being. As Christ consciousness resonates in us, the mystery of pure consciousness unfolds and increases.

 

[Beckim]

Where is Georges when you need him.....he could add some much to this discussion. : I miss his scripture interpretation and unique points of view. Where did he go????? :o

 

[New_Wineskin]

What do you think...

I voted "no" because I was thinking that you were asking for a manmade reformation of the groups calling themselves "churches" . I consider that there really is only one Church and the Lord makes whatever reforms He wants of Her as She needs .

 

[New_Wineskin]

I think the traditional tithe is one of the root causes for the condition of what some people refer to as the church.(personally i believe we are just a people)
Titheing and giving to a building puts people into catagories, you usually will see the biggest tithers holding the biggest positions and having the loudest voice regardless if they are appointed to them by God or not.
You have a bunch of hirelings and 'wealthy' people running the show instead of those called and appointed by God in alot of if not most of the churches of today.
I think that people should all chip in to keep the lights turned on and to see to the needs of those around them...thats it.
Let the Holy Spirit direct people in their giving.`
It's became a big institutional system and money is somewhere at the root of all that is wrong with it, keeping that big wheel turning.

I wouldn't say that it is a "root" but a "consequence" . After giving into the thinking that people need all of that financial overhead , they have naturally also agreed to a method of maintaining that overhead . The idea of "membership" ( or covenant , committment , or joining ) a group is another doctrine closely related to the tithe to maintain unnecessary overhead . Before commanding people to tithe , they need to make sure they are staying put and will feel guilty about leaving . *Then* it is time to command a "tithe" .

I agree with you that the institution keeps itself going . When people start new groups , they don't even think of doing things differently . :D

 

[Imagican]

And Soma, why is it that there are so many that seem oblivious to what is so obvious to others? How can it be that so many can seem so 'blind' as to the 'truth' of the Church? Is it not completely obvious when one reads Revelation that we are emulating that Church referred to by Christ as the one that will boast of all the wonderful deeds done in His name, yet His answer is that He doesn't even know them?

What's meant to be is meant to be though and the falling away will certainly not be a diminishing of 'religion'. It will simply be a falling away from the 'truth'. I believe that this started about 1900 hundred years ago and has done nothing but increase in speed ever since so that we now find ourselves mostly worshiping something TOTALY different than that which the apostles worshiped.

Miracles would still exist if the Spirit were still present. The only miracles that I see seem to be false miracles and lying wonders. I witness miracles in individuals being 'saved' but the miracles performed by the apostles are long gone. Why? The Spirit still exists and is alive and well. But where is it? In the Churches? Not the ones that I have witnessed. There is certainly spirit there, but not THE Spirit. You can't have a room full of demons and the Spirit dwelling among them. Doesn't work this way.

And as I see it, doesn't matter who or what you are in the Church now days, as long as you've got a few bucks to throw in the plate, you are welcomed. Sad it is. But that's what happens when you turn religion into a business. Then it's nothing but a matter of marketing. What the people WANT is what you offer. It's no longer a matter of teaching the 'truth', people pleasing becomes much more important when it comes to filling those pews and filling ones bank account.

Gotta pay them bills 'brother'. Gotta pay them bills. And then, as soon as were able to pay the bills that we've got, let's start finding other NEW ways to spend even more. And even take what many can't afford to give to do it. And, if they aren't willing to give out of their own choice, let's just throw a little guilt at em and tell em straight out that if they want ANY blessings from God, they need to give till it hurts.

 

[Solo]

No, the church does not need a modern day reformation.

The church needs to return to its roots, and to follow the Word of God. Where each member is in line with the gospel of Jesus Christ, keep on going; where each member is not in line with the gospel of Jesus Christ, repent, and keep on going.

 

[mutzrein]

No, the church does not need a modern day reformation.

The church needs to return to its roots, and to follow the Word of God. Where each member is in line with the gospel of Jesus Christ, keep on going; where each member is not in line with the gospel of Jesus Christ, repent, and keep on going.

Could that be what the problem is Solo, that they don't know what the gospel is?