Refuting Preterism

[n2thelight]

All I want to know is,when did God defeat the armies that gathered(shall gather)against Israel????

 

[Sinthesis]

Wow, I don't think that is what Sinthesis said at all.

You're right. That is not what I said.

 

[Sinthesis]

I can't agree with that,as the apostasy shall,not maybe,but shall come again.....Most of the Church will,and even now,are already deceived....

Matthew 24:11 "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."

Matthew 24:12 "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."

The "iniquity", is "lawlessness" of turning away from God's Word. It will multiply because of the apostasy, or falling away from God's Holy Word.

Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works'.

Matthew 7:23 "And then will I profess unto them, 'I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity' ."

Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:"

This is the famine Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24:7, and Mark 13:8; it is not for food or drink, "but for the hearing of the Word of the Lord". This famine is here and now.

Amos 8:12 "And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it."

Zechariah 8:23 "Thus saith the Lord of hosts; 'In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, 'We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.' ' "

These "ten men" that come out of the nations of the whole world are "ten horns of power". They are the ten horns, or authorities [agencies] of power that will give their authority in support of Satan the Antichrist. This is also discussed in Daniel's vision of the ten horns. This word for "men" in the Hebrew text is "enosh", which as used in Numbers 31:35 is not areas of areas of land, or nations, but men of authority of governmental entities, units of government which control the entire earth.

I Corinthians 10:6 "Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted."

These things that were written about in the Old Testament concerning Moses and the Prophets were examples or types to show us what we could expect in our generation.

I Chronicles 2:55 "And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez [Jerusalem]; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab."

"Hemath" the land of the offspring of Cain is the land of the Kenites, and these Kenites are "of the house or nation of Rechab", not of the house or nations of Israel. They are the ones that had taken over the duties of the Levitical scribes, and are keeping the records of God's people. Think of it, the ones that Jesus addressed in John 8:44 are the offspring of these same Kenites that had taken over the priesthood some 600 years earlier.

Ezra 8:15 "And I gathered them together to the river that runneth to Ahava; and there abode we in tents three days: and I viewed the People, and the priests, and found there none of the sons of Levi."

Ezra was leading a wagon train, much the same way that early America was settled, and three days out of Babylon they came to a river and Ezra decided to pause and account for all the people and supplies that were in the group returning to Jerusalem. Remember that the purpose of returning to Jerusalem was to build the Temple, the streets and the walls to reestablish the worship as it was. However, there were noLevitical priests to perform the worship service the way that God required. All of the priesthood had been taken over by these Nethinims [strangers], who we know were the Kenites of the three families recorded in I Chronicles 2:55.

So why are we going through all this history? Because Paul has told us that what we are going to see happening in the latter days are going to be as it was written in the Old Testament. These thing are "ensamples" or types of what we are witnessing today. People that are strangers to our Lord Jesus Christ are going to assume the roles of God's ministers and transform or disguise themselves into ministers of light. We read of this in II Corinthians 11:14, 15.

II Corinthians 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

The word "transformed" in the Greek text is #3345 in the Strong's Greek dictionary; "Metachematizo, met-as-trif'-o; to transfigure or disguise." It is to modify or change into something that you are not. Satan will appear to be the True Christ, when in fact he is just the same old snake that he was back in the garden of Eden, out to trick those that do not have the seal of the Word of God in their minds, into worshipping him as the Messiah Jesus Christ.

I Corinthians 10:11 "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

"Ensamples" in the manuscripts is the Greek word "tupos", number 5179 in the Strong's Greek dictionary. "a sample, or type; i.e. a model for imitation, a fashion, for manner, or form." So Paul is telling us that those things that we read about in the Old Testament, of the events of the prophets of old are examples of what we should be looking for in our day. This is written to alert all people to be aware of how it shall be before Christ returns. What was written in the Exodus, or in Amos is written as examples for our admonition or warning. All of the Scriptures is given as a warning to those who are living in the times of the ends of this world age of the flesh. We will see the end of the flesh age come to a close, and there are many things that will come to pass right before our eyes that were written about in detail way back in the Old Testament time, and Paul is telling you and I to wake up to those warnings.

God did not leave us helpless nor hopeless in these end times, and that is why we must become skilled in all of His Word. It is all an example of what is going to befall us in our generation

If you can't agree with my outlook then its's ok. I don't mind. However I believe it is better to have a positive outlook for our fellow Christians as we are the living examples of Christ's work on earth. To that end I believe most of the condemning scripture that we are so willing to heap on 'other' Christians as proof of 'their' slide towards Armageddon more properly belongs as criticism of Jesus' own generation, or often those contemporary with the prophets themselves.

 

[Sinthesis]

All I want to know is,when did God defeat the armies that gathered(shall gather)against Israel????

Which scripture are you referring to? There is more than one answer because in some cases it is past, while at least one is still future.

 

[Sinthesis]

The account of Stephen in the book of Acts is the account of someone who would have been alive at the time Jesus spoke those words, and truly, he did not taste of death until he had seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Do you believe then that the kingdom of God has already come with power?

 

[Randy]

Yes.
There is no mention of "antichrist" in The Revelation.
Many Christians view the scriptures differently from one another... They are written so well the discussions have been going on for thousands of years.

What many see as the God wrath on the earth( the people left when He returns) i see a judgement for the murder of His Son .... IMO that is why it was "this" generation...

I will not get into a big discussion becasue of the moderating duties i kinda just give my opinion and then bite my tongue The discussion is fascinating. That the Word is written the way it is is also...

Oh I think there is a false prophet (the beast that comes out of the land) who sets up a image that must be worshipped or get killed. And that image is of the beast that comes out of the sea. (an angel who is currently locked up (imprisoned) and won't be set free until the sounding of the 5th trump.
They will be very much opposed to God. (Anti) The great tribulation comes upon the whole world.

Read Rev 13

The act of the cross was not held against Israel by the one who judges. As Jesus stated on the cross, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

R.

 

[JLB]

Wow, I don't think that is what Sinthesis said at all.

What does apostasy mean to you?

It's exactly what he said.

 

[reba]

Oh I think there is a false prophet (the beast that comes out of the land) who sets up a image that must be worshipped or get killed. And that image is of the beast that comes out of the sea. (an angel who is currently locked up (imprisoned) and won't be set free until the sounding of the 5th trump.
They will be very much opposed to God. (Anti) The great tribulation comes upon the whole world.

Read Rev 13

The act of the cross was not held against Israel by the one who judges. As Jesus stated on the cross, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

R.

Agreed Revelation speaks of a beast

There is a Biblical definition of antichrist. found here
1Jn_2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn_4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn_1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Again we do not fine in Scripture The great tribulation Jesus said "great tribulation "

The act of the cross was not held against Israel by the one who judges. As Jesus stated on the cross, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

very interesting thought ... one that wont leave me....

 

[Deborah13]

What does apostasy mean to you?

It's exactly what he said.

Sinthesis said, "This is why I no longer fear for some future overall apostasy of Christianity. Whereas if under the law this would be assured, under the Grace of the Holy Spirit given through Christ it is impossible. The Church will not fail God as Temple Judaism did."

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[JLB]

Sinthesis said, "This is why I no longer fear for some future overall apostasy of Christianity. Whereas if under the law this would be assured, under the Grace of the Holy Spirit given through Christ it is impossible. The Church will not fail God as Temple Judaism did."

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

This is why I no longer fear for some future overall apostasy of Christianity.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3


There will be a falling away before the Lord returns.

Many will be led to worship and follow a false Messiah, who will go to a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself as God.

To deny this and explain it away, as something that is past, is purely irresponsible.

We should be warning this generation that this is coming, so as to prepare them.

There are those in the Israeli Government that are calling for this Temple to be built even now.

Everything is in place.

Why on earth would you not want to Blow the trumpet and sound the alarm as a responsible watchman???


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3


There will be a falling away before the Lord returns.

Many will be led to worship and follow a false Messiah, who will go to a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself as God.

To deny this and explain it away, as something that is past, is purely irresponsible.

We should be warning this generation that this is coming, so as to prepare them.

There are those in the Israeli Government that are calling for this Temple to be built even now.

Everything is in place.

Why on earth would you not want to Blow the trumpet and sound the alarm as a responsible watchman???


JLB

Hi JLB,

What if Revelation was written before 70AD, would that make any difference in the time frame of what was future in Revelation?
And if you believe it was written after 70AD, why do you believe that?

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB,

What if Revelation was written before 70AD, would that make any difference in the time frame of what was future in Revelation?
And if you believe it was written after 70AD, why do you believe that?

Have I mentioned anything from the book of Revelation? Why ask this question?

This is exactly the kind of distracting questions that derails from the path of truth when engaging in this discussion.

Round and round with all the side questions that dilute the truth.

• Jesus returns once!

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

• He will destroy the false Messiah when He does, and banish all who don't know Him and obey the Gospel to hell.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

• Every eye will see him when He returns.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:30

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7


Are you somehow suggesting that these scriptures were all fulfilled in 70 AD?


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Have I mentioned anything from the book of Revelation? Why ask this question?

This is exactly the kind of distracting questions that derails from the path of truth when engaging in this discussion.

Round and round with all the side questions that dilute the truth.

• Jesus returns once!

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

• He will destroy the false Messiah when He does, and banish all who don't know Him and obey the Gospel to hell.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

• Every eye will see him when He returns.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:30

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7


Are you somehow suggesting that these scriptures were all fulfilled in 70 AD?


JLB

The OP mentions 70AD and Revelation twice.

What does Hebrews 9 say?
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Verse 26 says that He sacrificed Himself once, as a sacrifice for sin.
Verse 28 says that He will appear a second time without sin-offering, to those who wait for Him.

I like what Adam Clarke in part said about this verse...
"Whereas Jesus, after having made atonement, (and presented himself in heaven, before God), will not return to the earth for the purpose of making himself a sacrifice the second time; but having procured an eternal redemption for us, by the sacrifice of himself once offered, he will return for the purpose of declaring to them who wait for him that they are accepted, and of bestowing on them the great blessing of eternal life. This reward he, being surrounded with the glory of the Father, Matthew 16:27, will give them in the presence of an assembled universe, both as their King and their Priest. This is the great salvation which Christ came to preach, and which was confirmed to the world by them who heard him: Hebrews 2:3." Reader, lay this sincerely to heart!"

This is the second time being spoken of in verse 28. However, I don't see that it is saying that this is the only appearing or type of appearing that He may have done or even may do. So has He appeared in judgement before to those not waiting for Him? Is there a scripture that says He has not?

 

[jasonc]

quoting a preterist amil with anti-rcc bias at that, nice.

 

[JLB]

The OP mentions 70AD and Revelation twice.

What does Hebrews 9 say?
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Verse 26 says that He sacrificed Himself once, as a sacrifice for sin.
Verse 28 says that He will appear a second time without sin-offering, to those who wait for Him.

I like what Adam Clarke in part said about this verse...
"Whereas Jesus, after having made atonement, (and presented himself in heaven, before God), will not return to the earth for the purpose of making himself a sacrifice the second time; but having procured an eternal redemption for us, by the sacrifice of himself once offered, he will return for the purpose of declaring to them who wait for him that they are accepted, and of bestowing on them the great blessing of eternal life. This reward he, being surrounded with the glory of the Father, Matthew 16:27, will give them in the presence of an assembled universe, both as their King and their Priest. This is the great salvation which Christ came to preach, and which was confirmed to the world by them who heard him: Hebrews 2:3." Reader, lay this sincerely to heart!"

This is the second time being spoken of in verse 28. However, I don't see that it is saying that this is the only appearing or type of appearing that He may have done or even may do. So has He appeared in judgement before to those not waiting for Him? Is there a scripture that says He has not?

Hebrews 9:28 states that he will appear once

 

[JLB]

Jesus is Lord!

 

[ezrider]

Do you believe then that the kingdom of God has already come with power?

Yes, the kingdom of God is here and is present with men. It is a kingdom of Spirit, for God is a Spirit; and must be worshiped in Spirit and in truth. The power is of the Lord and to him alone to make known in his time.

 

[Deborah13]

He will destroy the false Messiah when He does, and banish all who don't know Him and obey the Gospel to hell.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

JLB

Once again I fail to see how this refutes partial preterism.

"Thus partial preterists are in agreement and conformity with the historic ecumenical creeds of the Church and articulate the doctrine of the resurrection held by the Early church fathers. Partial preterists hold that the New Testament predicts and depicts many "comings" of Christ. They contend that the phrase Second Coming means second of a like kind in a series, for the Scriptures record other "comings" even before the judgment-coming in 70 AD. This would eliminate the 70 AD event as the "second" of any series, let alone the second of a series in which the earthly, physical ministry of Christ is the first. Partial Preterists believe that the new creation comes in redemptive progression as Christ reigns from His heavenly throne, subjugating His enemies, and will eventually culminate in the destruction of physical death, the "last enemy" (1 Cor 15:20-24). If there are any enemies remaining, the resurrection event cannot have occurred."
http://www.theopedia.com/Preterism

 

[Deborah13]

Hebrews 9:28 states that he will appear once

Once for what?
Heb 9:26 since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;
Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
Heb 9:28 so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear, to those waiting for him--to salvation!

He was manifested Once to bear the sins of many.
He will appear a second time apart from a sin-offering, to salvation. (eternal life)

I don't know of a partial preterist or any definition of partial preterism that disagrees with this. Some may and I just don't know it but I would think that would put them in a category of being full preterist.

As far as the resurrection of the dead is concerned I don't think there has been one except I do wonder about those that were raised from the dead just after Jesus was and came out of their tombs.
These being OT saints.

 

[JLB]

Once for what?
Heb 9:26 since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;
Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
Heb 9:28 so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear, to those waiting for him--to salvation!

He was manifested Once to bear the sins of many.
He will appear a second time apart from a sin-offering, to salvation. (eternal life)

I don't know of a partial preterist or any definition of partial preterism that disagrees with this. Some may and I just don't know it but I would think that would put them in a category of being full preterist.

As far as the resurrection of the dead is concerned I don't think there has been one except I do wonder about those that were raised from the dead just after Jesus was and came out of their tombs.
These being OT saints.

There has been only One Resurrection of the dead.

There is no need to wonder!

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:22-23

There have been OT testament saints who have been raised and ascended to heaven from the heart of the earth, but that is not the Resurrection of the dead, whereby we will receive an immortal body that will never die, and will shine like the Sun.


JLB