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Reincarnation and early Christians.....

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Of course all the books (66) in the modern canon were not yet in written yet so..... where does that leave them????? I hope you dont infer that this verse refers to past books only!

Ephesians 2:18-21 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

This is a good Catholic argument for the authority of the Church!

Nice job!

Ecclesiastes 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

SO much for Med School.....

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This verse is used to show that humans die only once, thereby supporting resurrection and refuting reincarnation. But if this verse affirms that people are only allowed a single death, then this itself excludes many people of the Bible. All of the people in the Bible who were "raised from the dead" experienced death more than once (with the exception of Jesus). Other people in the Bible such as Enoch, Elijah and Melchizedek did not even die at all. But most convincing of all, the apostle Paul himself died more than one as recorded in his second letter to the Corinthians:

"I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know - God knows. And I know that this person - whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows - was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that humans are not permitted to tell." (2 Cor. 12:1-4)



http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen03.html
 
BB,

I will agree that it is best to live THIS LIFE as it is the ONLY ONE.....

You need to work out your Salvation "with fear and trembling" now and not slack off until it is too late.....

Salvation is not dependant on your views of reincarnation but it does explain a lot about your mindset.....
 
Soma-Sight said:
BB,

I will agree that it is best to live THIS LIFE as it is the ONLY ONE.....

You need to work out your Salvation "with fear and trembling" now and not slack off until it is too late.....

Salvation is not dependant on your views of reincarnation but it does explain a lot about your mindset.....

Whatever that means? :o
 
Whatever that means?

In laymen's terms it means not to be spritually apathetic due to a belief in "getting another shot" in the next life.....

Live like this life is all there is.....
 
Soma-Sight said:
Whatever that means?

In laymen's terms it means not to be spritually apathetic due to a belief in "getting another shot" in the next life.....

Live like this life is all there is.....

Salvation is received in this life through faith in Jesus Christ.

There is no coming back as a bug or a cucumber or a man to work out Karma.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

That is the long and the short of it...

The Dalai Lama is a fool according to the scriptures.

Psalms 53:1 To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
 
Karma@Grace said:
I never recall any of 'this saints' in bible...can any one help me

One of those you don't recall being in the bible (Athanasius) was the one who proposed the first list of canon that included all 27 NT books. His list was debated heavily, but eventually accepted (after his death). Not that it was "his list" in the most exacting sense: rather, he compiled a list that was the most comprehensive, including several books of dispute, such as Hebrews, James, and Revelation (which were again questioned by the Reformers).

Athanasius was also nearly the only hold-out against the heresy of Arianism in his day- aside from the Cappodocian fathers-

So you not only see Athanasius in your bible (look on the contents page), you also see him in your theology.
 
All Christians are saints. There is no special class.

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Romans 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

2 Corinthians 8:4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.

2 Corinthians 13:13 All the saints salute you.

Ephesians 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

In His service,

Saint Robert :D
 
John 5:26-29 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The bible teaches resurrection not reincarnation.
 
bibleberean said:
All Christians are saints. There is no special class.

This is a half-truth: Inasmuch as we are all sinners in need of God's grace to do anything (apart from me you can do nothing), or even exist (in Him we live and move and have our being), there is no "class" of Christians- just sons who are all part of the One.

What this egalitarian, humanistic statement of Robert's obstructs, however, is that there are some who run their race with faithfulness and self-sacrifice, and there are those who saunter down the track concerned about little more than their own spot in the pack.

These are examples "of which the world was not worthy"- but according to Robert, he is just as much a saint as were those who were sawn in half for the testimony of Christ. Good for him. I hope to finish as they did, but in my eyes I am the least of the saints.

And we see this progress in Paul, who, in the beginning of his service, had the manner of the Protestants, assuring everyone that he was the equal to the other Apostles. As Paul matured, and gained insight into his inner person, he progressed by descending, seeing himself as least among the saints, then, finally, the chief of sinners.

Paradoxically, we have come to know him as foremost in many ways.
See, the term saint really is an adjective, a word that describes a noun. Just as water can be cold, warm, and hot, saints can also be relatively more saintly/sainted.

Any Saint worth their salt did not view themselves as more sainted than their peers- in fact, quite the opposite. Saints are not a special "class" among the saints, they are the red-hot sainted, and every man and woman born of the Spirit has the call to be red-hot like them. It would do some of you well to stop boasting of your equality to such, and simply get red-hot. I take my own advice as well.
James
 
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Why does this sound like works to me?
 
All saints are sinners saved by grace. That is not news... and that is the truth.

Reincarnation is a doctrine of devils.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

The resurrection is the hope of the saints.

1 Corinthians 15:12-22 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
 
Reincarnation is a doctrine of devils

I bet you cant show us ONE VERSE that EXPLIXCITLY says reincarnation is a doctrine of devils.....






Supporting passages from a Christian point of view
There are several verses that some claim support reincarnation:

[edit]
Jeremiah 1:4-5
The word came to Jeremiah, and said 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you..." . This verse has been used by Traditional Christians as evidence that God has foreknowledge of persons and events - that is not limited by time and space. Christians who believe in reincarnation may see this verse as evidence ability to "know" a person throughout a variety of reincarnated lifetimes.

[edit]
Matthew 11:14
Jesus is recorded as saying: "And if you are willing to receive and accept it, John (the Baptist) himself is Elijah who was to come1". Most traditional Christians prefer to interpret this verse only in a loose fashion to mean that John was only like Elijah. For those Christians who advocate a belief in reincarnation, this verse is interpreted more strictly as meaning exactly what it says, namely that John the Baptist is/was Elijah the prophet himself, which in this strictly interpreted context could only mean that John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elijah. One related consideration that Christian advocates of reincarnation address concerning the fact that John 1:19-21 appears to contravene Matthew 11:14, denying that John the Baptist is/was Elijah reincarnated, this view ignoring the idea that John the Baptist did not know that he was Elijah. Christian advocates of reincarnation propose that this apparent Biblical contravention in John of what is stated in Matthew may have been a later editorial insertion by doctrinal purists. Admittedly these types of corrective insertions in John, contraveneing the first three Gospels, appear to have also been added in many other instances within John as well, the gospel of John generally being agreed to have been written several years after Matthew.

[edit]
Matthew 17:11-13
Another reference by Jesus that equates John the Baptist with Elijah.

[edit]
John 9:1-3
The disciples observe a man who was born blind, and inquire of Jesus whether the man himself or his parents sinned, that he was born blind. Some interpret this question to imply that the man would have had some opportunity to sin prior to birth, which at least presupposes the pre-existence of the soul in a situation where there was free will and the ability to commit sin. Jesus replies that in this case neither the man nor his parents sinned, but he does not rebuke the disciples in any way for their belief that it would have been possible for the man to sin prior to birth. This can be and has been interpreted in many ways.

[edit]
Galatians 6:7
"Whatever one sows, that he will also reap". Some feel that this agrees with the idea of enforced karma, a basic tenet of some other religions that hold the belief in reincarnation; however it also agrees with the concept of divine justice, and of each person being judged fairly, a central tenet of Christianity. The subsequent verses seem to imply that a certain amount of time may pass before a just person reaps their true reward: "at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up". However there is no indication that this time might span more than one lifetime. In any case, those who attempt to use this verse to prove that the Bible endorses the concept of karma suffer the same burden as those who attempt to use Hebrews 9:27 to disprove reincarnation. It is problematic because, by itself, it does not prove reincarnation and is only a single verse. The fact that it was written by the Apostle Paul, and not a saying of Jesus, may also influence Christians who give more weight to Jesus' teachings than to Paul's.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_and_ ... nt_of_view
 
Jesus taught the resurrection not reincarnation.

Matthew 22:23-29 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Buddhist's teach Karma not justice or grace.

The bible teaches that a man reaps what he sows in this life or after death.

Luke 14:12-14 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee. But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Buddhist teachings on Karma being reincarnated over and over until one becomes free from rebirth is not biblical.

Buddhist rituals are not Christian but alien to what Christ taught.

1 Corinthians 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

http://www.ronrhodes.org/Reincarnation.html

"One's lot in life, according to those who believe in reincarnation, is based on the law of karma. This law says that if bad things happen in one's life, this is an outworking of bad karma. If good things happen in one's life, this is an outworking of good karma.

"Karma" refers to the "debt" a soul accumulates because of good or bad actions committed during one's life (or past lives). If one accumulates good karma by performing good actions, he or she will be reincarnated in a desirable state. If one accumulates bad karma, he or she will be reincarnated in a less desirable state. In Shirley MacLaine's book Out on a Limb we are told, "Reincarnation is like show business. You just keep doing it until you get it right."

Some people twist the Scriptures and say that Jesus Himself taught reincarnation or "cyclical rebirth." In Matthew 11:14, for example, Jesus said, "And if you are willing to accept it, [John the Baptist] is the Elijah who was to come." Likewise, in John 3:3 Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

But these passages, rightly interpreted, do not support reincarnation. Matthew 11:14 does not really teach that John the Baptist was a reincarnation of Elijah. Luke 1:17, an important cross reference, tells us that the ministry of John the Baptist was carried out "in the spirit and power of Elijah." Moreover, reincarnationists conveniently forget that John the Baptist, when asked if he was Elijah, flatly answered, "No!" (John 1:21).

The bible teaches that the wages of sin is death and that "all have sinned".

That means no one has "good karma".

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

A person can only be saved by grace through faith and those are "gifts" not wages.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Timothy 1:8-10 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Jesus has abolished death. We don't die over and over again until we get it right.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Buddhist teachings are the antithesis of what Christ taught and are the doctrines of devils.







Sinners are saved by grace.
 
Jesus taught the resurrection not reincarnation.

Matthew 22:23-29 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Buddhist's teach Karma not justice or grace.

The bible teaches that a man reaps what he sows in this life or after death.

Luke 14:12-14 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee. But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Buddhist teachings on Karma being reincarnated over and over until one becomes free from rebirth is not biblical.

Buddhist rituals are not Christian but alien to what Christ taught.

1 Corinthians 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

http://www.ronrhodes.org/Reincarnation.html

"One's lot in life, according to those who believe in reincarnation, is based on the law of karma. This law says that if bad things happen in one's life, this is an outworking of bad karma. If good things happen in one's life, this is an outworking of good karma.

"Karma" refers to the "debt" a soul accumulates because of good or bad actions committed during one's life (or past lives). If one accumulates good karma by performing good actions, he or she will be reincarnated in a desirable state. If one accumulates bad karma, he or she will be reincarnated in a less desirable state. In Shirley MacLaine's book Out on a Limb we are told, "Reincarnation is like show business. You just keep doing it until you get it right."

Some people twist the Scriptures and say that Jesus Himself taught reincarnation or "cyclical rebirth." In Matthew 11:14, for example, Jesus said, "And if you are willing to accept it, [John the Baptist] is the Elijah who was to come." Likewise, in John 3:3 Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

But these passages, rightly interpreted, do not support reincarnation. Matthew 11:14 does not really teach that John the Baptist was a reincarnation of Elijah. Luke 1:17, an important cross reference, tells us that the ministry of John the Baptist was carried out "in the spirit and power of Elijah." Moreover, reincarnationists conveniently forget that John the Baptist, when asked if he was Elijah, flatly answered, "No!" (John 1:21).

The bible teaches that the wages of sin is death and that "all have sinned".

That means no one has "good karma".

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

A person can only be saved by grace through faith and those are "gifts" not wages.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Timothy 1:8-10 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Jesus has abolished death. We don't die over and over again until we get it right.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Buddhist teachings are the antithesis of what Christ taught and are the doctrines of devils.







Sinners are saved by grace.
 
The bible teaches that the wages of sin is death and that "all have sinned".

That means no one has "good karma".

The Bible teaches that a believer is justified by FAITH in Jesus Christ: but it also says that one's faith must be alive - else it is useless. What is living faith? The Scriptures teach that living faith is faith that is reflected in good works, obedience! If obedience is absent in a believer's life, (assuming that he/she has time to practice obedience) then all his/her professions of faith are meaningless. In other words a believer is justified by living faith which is reflected in good works, obedience to God! Let me give you a few texts to substantiate this seemingly paradoxical statement.

BB,

If reincarnation is true.... And you end up an animal....

You will be a bull/ram/shark for your one way tenacity and vigor!

I will probaby end up a leaf or a bird of some sort.....lol... :-D
 
Karma2Grace said:
Yoga assumes that the problem of man is one of perception or realization.

In contrast, Christianity assumes the basic problem of man is not one of knowledge or enlightenment, but a moral problem where man has willed and acted against God and His ways. The solution for the Christian is forgiveness.

So there is a serious and deep difference between the assumption of what man’s problem is and therefore how to go about finding a solution to this problem.

Excuse me for highlighting merely a small part of your post, Karma2Grace. This part, however, is the part that I wish to respond to.

You say that in Christianity the basic problem is not one of knowledge (etc.) and you state that in Yoga it is one of perception (etc.).

What is interesting is that Knowledge (with a capital K) is part of the realm of Spirit and that perception is what man has to make do with ... a meagre kind of equivalent you might say. If man could have access to Knowledge, his actions would no longer be influenced by perception: he would e.g. cease to perceive the person opposite him as an empty, spiritless shell, and would Know that person as a brother ... as one of God's many sons, and he would not treat that brother in a manner which would create the need for any kind of forgiveness. For isn't it so, that the manner in which we act ... and require forgiveness ... are a result of our lack of Knowledge and of how we perceive?

As long as we are talking about causalities or underlying causes, I consequently cannot see the contrast that your above post attempts to depict. Both enlightenment as Yogis seek it and forgiveness are nothing but a remembrance, a return to innocence or, if you like, a path to Atonement.
 
Excuse me for highlighting merely a small part of your post, Karma2Grace. This part, however, is the part that I wish to respond to.

You say that in Christianity the basic problem is not one of knowledge (etc.) and you state that in Yoga it is one of perception (etc.).

What is interesting is that Knowledge (with a capital K) is part of the realm of Spirit and that perception is what man has to make do with ... a meagre kind of equivalent you might say. If man could have access to Knowledge, his actions would no longer be influenced by perception: he would e.g. cease to perceive the person opposite him as an empty, spiritless shell, and would Know that person as a brother ... as one of God's many sons, and he would not treat that brother in a manner which would create the need for any kind of forgiveness. For isn't it so, that the manner in which we act ... and require forgiveness ... are a result of our lack of Knowledge and of how we perceive?

As long as we are talking about causalities or underlying causes, I consequently cannot see the contrast that your above post attempts to depict. Both enlightenment as Yogis seek it and forgiveness are nothing but a remembrance, a return to innocence or, if you like, a path to Atonement.

Man you really get it..... 8-)

Thats an inspirational post man!

Thank you.... :angel:
 
Karma2Grace said:
There is NO union with God, so called ‘union’ in Christianity is entirely different from Union is eastern, Here union means being with Christ (we will still hold our identity and we will NOT be a god)

Yes, one could say that the Atman/Brahman principle "works" somewhat differently in Christianity. Even if the Sonship was created by our Father and is part of His Wholeness, He is and remains "the Father".

And no ... you will not "keep your identity" as you now perceive it ... if what you now perceive as your identity ever was your true identity in the first place.
Only Love is eternal and so you will (last judgement) first "judge" both what you have created (with Love) and what you have made (from ego) and only what you have created will "remain".
You will not be a god, but the Sonship, being of One Will with the Father, will co-create with the Father.
 
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Watch out for snakes who try and incorporate light with darkness.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
 
Karma2Grace said:
Bible has no support for reincarnation

Not that, within a wider c.q. more absolute context, I personally find the subject reincarnation overly interesting, but the information at this URL would appear to suggest otherwise or, if you like, that the Bible does contain texts which support reincarnation:

http://www.near-death.com/reincarnation.html

Opinions anyone?
 
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