Relics?

[Cure of Ars]

Using images for worship and relics was authorized by a corrupt Church, this was by order of Empress Irene of Constantinople, (who plucked the eyes of her own son Constantine as relics), and then called a Church council at the request of Hadrian I, pope of Rome at that time. Such practices are idolatry. Lev.26:1; Numb.33:52

First of all it looks like you are quoting this anti-Catholic web site.

List of Catholic teachings
You should use quotes and provide the site of where you get things.

Second the site is full of a bunch of lies.

Third, relics were venerated way before 788. Let me give some quotes to show this.

156 A.D.

When therefore the centurion saw the contentiousness caused by the Jews, he put the body in the midst, as was their custom, and burnt it. 2 Thus we, at last, took up his bones, [St. Polycarp’s] more precious than precious stones, and finer than gold, and put them where it was meet. 3 There the Lord will permit us to come together according to our power in gladness and joy, and celebrate the birthday of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already contested, and for the practice and training of those whose fate it shall be. (The Martyrdom of Polycarp 18)

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... -lake.html

St. Augustine 388 A.D.

This I might say for the sake of refuting these most frivolous objectors. But we cannot deny that many miracles were wrought to confirm that one grand and health-giving miracle of Christ's ascension to heaven with the flesh in which He rose. For these most trustworthy books of ours contain in one narrative both the miracles that were wrought and the creed which they were wrought to confirm. The miracles were published that they might produce faith, and the faith which they produced brought them into greater prominence. For they are read in congregations that they may be believed, and yet they would not be so read unless they were believed. For even now miracles are wrought in the name of Christ, whether by His sacraments or by the prayers or relics of His saints; (City of God 22:8)

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/a ... hapter%208

St. Jerome 404 A.D.

We, it is true, refuse to worship or adore, I say not the relics of the martyrs, but even the sun and moon, the angels and archangels, the Cherubim and Seraphim and "every name that is named, not only in this world but also in that which is to come." For we may not "serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Still we honour the relics of the martyrs, that we may adore Him whose martyrs they are. We honour the servants that their honour may be reflected upon their Lord who Himself says:--"he that receiveth you receiveth me.†(To Riparius)

 

[Cure of Ars]

Nothing eternal exists in man-made objects.... Relics are just wood, ceramics, glass, etc.

Heidi, I don't think you understand what a relic is.

 

[Heidi]

A relic is a man-made object.

 

[Tobael]

Not a relic of a saint, Heidi - God made that relic!!

 

[Vic C.]

Now why would God create something He commanded us not to make?

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

 

[Tobael]

I meant the actual saint's body, or a part of it, created by God and often preserved miraculously after death for veneration.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Now why would God create something He commanded us not to make?

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

And then we have the command to make an image very much like something in the heavens
Ex 25:18

And thou shalt make two cherubims [of] gold, [of] beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

Does God contradict Himself? Of course not. So what's the difference? They were not to make unsanctioned images for their homes. God sanctioned the creation of images for the Temple (church) for and by the authorized priesthood.

If God isn't into making images, Vic, why did He make us in His image, and why did His Son come in our image?

Try to think this whole thing through, and drop the list of usual suspects.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Tobael,

I am only on the first page of this thread and you make excellent points. I would like to include healing by annoint with oil or Uncion in the Orthodox faith. This is also seen in James 5:14 14 "Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him."

Here we are called to pray and annoint with oil to heal and recieve forgiveness of sins. Here we see forgiveness of sins again comes from the Authority Jesus Christ gave His Church through the Apostles. Forgiveness of sins is found in the community of believers that have retained and heldfast to the faith, the body of Christ. The Church.

Just a few points.

Christ is risen!

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

Jason,

If the saints in heaven can hear the prayers of the faithful on earth, do they know of the pain and suffering the faithful are going through, does the knowledge of that pain and suffering affect the bless of heaven?

We read in Hebrews 11:46 the sufferings of the saints. This type of suffering continued until Saint Constantine who ended the slaughter of Christians. Does the "great cloud of witnesses" understand the suffering of the Church on earth? Yes. Quite well. Fact is the "captian of our salvation" is made perfect in our suffering. Hebrews 2:10. The great cloud is cheering those on the earth to "endure to the end" holding fast to the "faith delievered by the saints". The saints are more alive than we who are entombed to bodies with endless passions and desires. Truely those "in the presents of the Lord" are more alive to God than we could ever wish to possess. Who better to pray for us than a saint unfettered by the bonds of human passions?

Saint Basil the Great, Martyr for Christ

“Remember how none of the saints of old won their crowns of patients endurance by living luxuriously and being courted; but ALL were tested by being put through fire of great afflictions. For they had trials of cruel mocking and scourging, and others were sawn asunder and were slain with the sword. These are the glories of the saints.â€Â

As for the healing power of God's grace found in Holy Relics I can only say this right now:

God has used many avenues to express His infinite power and grace before man, over and over, incessantly drawing man unto Himself. God has used dumb asses to express His desires for man. Rocks can praise Him when man becomes silent in praise. God can make a dove the container of the Holy Spirit. God can use the hem of a garment or a hankerchief to heal. Do you believe there is something God is not capable of doing by the Holy Spirit found in His Church?

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

Orthodox Christian,

You make many excellent points of factin stating iconography predates christianity.

I would like to make a point in that the early church was for the most part illiterate. Few could read at all. The early Church used icons of jewish decent to teach about Moses and Elijah, Abraham and Joseph. Many of these icons predate the christian faith but were used and still are today as a teaching aid for those learning about the Christian faith.

Also in Church tradition it is taught that the woman with the blood issue healed by the hem of Christ's garment carved a likeness of this event into wood in which the first icon of Christ was written by Luke the Evangilist who we know wrote the Gospel of Luke and the books of Acts. So Luke not only wrote a gospel book but also wrote the first icon of Jesus Christ. I believe a anicent copy of this icon is found on Mount Athos.

Just a few Holy Tradition tidbits.

Christ is Risen!

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

In Exodus 20:4 it states “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.â€Â

Here the context of “graven images†means idols that are worshiped as god, thus it appears there are 2 classifications of images, true images and false images. If man is made in the “IMAGE†of God then men are “ICONS†of God, NOT GRAVEN.

If what the protestant says is true then taking a picture of your mom is making a graven image and condemned by the bible! Here we are told not to make images of anything “in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earthâ€Â. If this statement is true then we cannot take pictures of our dogs, cats or fish. We cannot place stuffed animals on our walls and beds, or mount trophy fish. All paintings of animals, fish, people, birds or any scenes of nature are condemned according to this verse of the bible.

American Christianity need to rethink their hypocrasy. Go to Washington DC. Graves of presidents are honored. Busts of presidents line the walls of congress. The fathers of the nation are lauded as "saints of america". We have parades that celebrate the war dead every year, feast days.

Here are some strange but true parallels between America and the Holy Orthodox Church:

The Church worships God in the Trinity / America has a government of Executive, Legislative, and Judicial very nearly worshipped in this land of entitlement.

The Church has Hymns and Psalms / America has the Star Spangled Banner, God Bless America, Etc all hymns of America "pride".

The Church has a Statement of Faith or Nicene/Constantinople Creed of 381 ad / America has the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag and Country.

The Church has the Holy Scripture / America has the US Constitution and Bills of Rights and Declaration of independence.

The Church has "Fathers of the Faith". Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, etc. / America has the “Fathers of the Nationâ€Â. George, Abe, Teddy and John, etc.

The Church has honored martyrs and saints considered "heros of the Christian faith / America has “honored war dead†and monuments and statues to the heros of the America "faith".

The Church has Feast days honoring the memory of the saints of the Christian faith / America has holidays or feast days (4th of July, Veterans Day, Martin Luther King’s Day, President’s Day, etc.) honoring great Americans of the past.

The Church has icons in the temple / America has pictures anhd busts of dead presidents lining the walls of their sacred temples.

The Church has ritual and ordinations of leaders / America has inaugurations and ritualized appointments of leaders, traditions run deep in America yet the traditions of God are condemned.

The Church has marriage / America has civil authorities giving in marriage even of homosexuals.

The Church has the Cross / America has a “flag".

The Church has hierarchy (Bishops, Priest, Deacons) / America has hierarchy. (President, Governors, Legislature, etc)

Of course this is not a complete list and I might add to it as time goes along. I am not critical of this Great Nation I live in I just thought the parallels were interesting between the real Church and one of many imposters.

Orthodoxy

 

[Tobael]

Good points Orthodoxy,

it seems that the problem lies in the idea of mediation. Not all can accept that God mediates salvation through 'creatures'. Baptism, laying on of hands, anointing, receiving God's word through a preacher, or through a Bible made by human hands - all these are means by which we receive salvation.

God has worked through creatures ever since He made the first of them. In speaking to Israel, He uses the angel of the Lord; in giving the Law, he uses Moses as mediator; in communicating His will before, during and after the Exile, He uses the prophets. Even within the Godhead He doesn't work alone: in working through His Son, He sets a pattern of sharing His divine activity.

Even in nature there is mediation: parents give birth to children and learn from teachers, etc. God doesn't create people directly, or infuse direct knowledge into their minds, but has ordained a set of interrelational laws, in which creation cooperates to bring about the divine purposes.

Obviously, His greatest use of creation comes through the created humanity of Christ. And Christ, after His public ministry, mediates through His Church and the Apostolic succession. And the fact that the Bible isn't self-interpreting, evidenced by the many different interpretations of those who 'go it alone', displays God's intention to mediate the understanding of His Word through the Church.

The idea that Christ's coming brought an end to mediation is absurd. He is still active in His creatures and relics are just one example of such mediation of grace.

God Bless,

Tobael.

 

[KrissyLen]

relics

In Christ alone do we have hope of Salvation. By His blood alone do we have healing. Relics are a successful attempt to keep the old religions of paganism while following Christ.