Repentance; Necessary for Salvation???

[Imagican]

In reference to the OSAS belief, is repentance NEEDED in order to receive the gift of Salvation?

 

[Sothenes]

In reference to the OSAS belief, is repentance NEEDED in order to receive the gift of Salvation?

Repentance is necessary as a result of salvation and not "for" salvation. You have it backwards.

Repentance is works and you aren't saved by works (Ephesians 2:8-9) and we had the discussion on James 2:24 where you never answered me on the subject that we aren't saved by works.

You can quote from the English all you want but I'm going to quote the Greek back at you.

 

[thessalonian]

In reference to the OSAS belief, is repentance NEEDED in order to receive the gift of Salvation?

Repentance is necessary as a result of salvation and not "for" salvation. You have it backwards.

Repentance is works and you aren't saved by works (Ephesians 2:8-9) and we had the discussion on James 2:24 where you never answered me on the subject that we aren't saved by works.

You can quote from the English all you want but I'm going to quote the Greek back at you.

So by your definition of a work, faith is a work as well. So is faith a result of salvation and not for salvation as well? Let's take it back a step further. I don't have faith yet. Someone hands me a Bible. I leave it for a few weeks on my nightstand. And then start reading it.Still no faith. Is what I am doing a result of salvation (i.e. I come to faith 5 years later. Faith I would not have come to had that man not given me that Bible")?

 

[Sothenes]

"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."-Romans 12:3

Some faith is a gift.

 

[thessalonian]

"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."-Romans 12:3

Some faith is a gift.

I'm not stating my opinion above. Make no mistake. Just seeing how far he will take his definition of works. Some protestants tell me faith is a work.

 

[ChristineES]

Yes, you need to repent. It is all part of the process.

 

[Klee shay]

Repentence is a natural reaction to God's grace. To accept salvation is to be exposed to God's grace (through Christ) and genuine repentance will follow.

Do we need repentence for salvation then? If repentence is a natural by-product of salvation, then yes - but it comes only after we're exposed to the grace of God.

 

[Imagican]

I wonder if there is not a serious misunderstanding of exactly 'what' repentance is.

If repentance takes place 'after' one has been saved, there would be an indication that there is NO possible repentance 'until' one is saved.

I have read your responses and would have to disagree. I believe that if one were to take repentance seriously, it would then become obvious that repentance is what 'BRINGS' us to Christ to begin with.

A simple example would be John baptising in the desert. He was calling those to REPENT whom he baptized.

From the perspective that has been offered so far, this would NOT be possible.

And it is clear that repentance played a major part in developing a relationship with God WAY before the possibility of being, 'born again'. So, for one to state that repentance is 'something given' is obviously an incorrect statement.

Now, back to the original question. Since I have already pointed out that repentance IS possible even for those NOT saved, is repentance necessary TO BE 'saved'?

OK, now let me offer the 'why' the question has been posted. I personally believe that it is IMPOSSIBLE to be 'saved' without a repentant heart. NO, not fear of punishment, but a 'true' understanding of one's sins, a NEED for forgiveness, and the humility needed in order realize these things. NOT guilt, but sorrow for that which one has done against the will of God.

With this in mind, I question the validity of those that would teach that repentance comes about 'because' of one's salvation. Obviously without repentance there would be NO reason to accept Christ into ones heart to begin with.

After a bit of discussion I will begin to offer scripture that shows WHAT repentance IS, and whether it IS necessary or not for salvation.

Oh, FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD. If one were to read in Proverbs, there is MUCH it offers concerning WORKING oneself into the righteous heart. That to DO what God has instructed DOES bring us closer to God. And obviously this was WRITTEN before the NT, so this would pertain to Christianity as well as PRE- Christianity.

One certainly can't EARN their salvation through works. but, as stated in the Bible, the righteous things that Abraham DID, WERE counter for righteousness. While we CANNOT work our way to heaven, this is CERTAINLY NO EXCUSE NOT TO TRY. And, what many seem to misunderstand is that doing what we have been commanded simply for the sake of the command means VERY LITTLE. What matters most is that we learn the love that it takes to do the will of God because it's the RIGHT thing to do, NOT what we may gain from it. And the ONLY way this is possible is by creating a relationship with the Father through His Son. In order to understand what we NEED to do, we MUST allow the Spirit to show us. This is NOT possible without a firm relationship with the Father.

How do we get this relationship? We certainly DO NOT get it from a 'lack' of works, this I can promise you. Simply look back through the history of the Bible and it becomes perfectly clear WHO obtained such a relationship. And they did NOT develope it by NOT working towards it.

 

[thessalonian]

I actually agree with most of your post Imigican, though I don't put repentence in the category of a work. I do agree with Klee Shey's perspective however, though not that repentence is a byproduct of salvation. Repentence is motivated by grace. But then so are acts of charity. So is faith for that matter. We cannot come to faith, repent, or do good deeds that are truly good without grace. We must resond to the grace given us. It is not irresistable.

Repentence is not a byproduct of salvation because it is a byproduct of external grace rather than internal. The unregenerate are brought to faith and a knowledge of God and repentence through external graces. I.e they see the beauty and order of creation and the great multiplicity and complexity of it and come to a conclusion that there is a God. God has implanted his laws on their heart and so they know of sin. They hear preaching which tells them of repentence, convicting them of the laws on their heart. Has the Holy Spirit entered their sould yet? No. Grace has worked on them but it is not internal until they come to faith and then repent, allowing the Holy Spirit to regenerate them. At that point salvation has come to them. Grace works within, moving them on the path that God will lead them along through the desert of life toward the promised land.

 

[Imagican]

Yet, repentance can be demonstrated even by those that have not accepted God or Christ into their hearts as well as charity.

So, the reason for the question; does repentance lead us to Christ? And if so, is it necessary for salvation?

I admit openly that there is much offered through the Spirit. But what does it take to find Christ to start with? Is a repentant heart necessary to receive the gifts offered?

 

[thessalonian]

Yet, repentance can be demonstrated even by those that have not accepted God or Christ into their hearts as well as charity.

So, the reason for the question; does repentance lead us to Christ? And if so, is it necessary for salvation?

I admit openly that there is much offered through the Spirit. But what does it take to find Christ to start with? Is a repentant heart necessary to receive the gifts offered?

None of us truly have a perfectly repentent heart or we would sin no more. A desire for a repentent heart I think is what is required. David said "create in me a clean heart". He did not have one yet I am sure God heard his cry for one and so accepted his desire for true repentence.

 

[Imagican]

I agree, but there IS such a thing as repentance, (knowledge of our faults and a desire to be conformed to God's will, and true sorrow for our mistakes), regardless of achieving 'complete conformation, (which none of will probably EVER obtain in this life).

I brought us this subject in the hopes of pointing out to many, that repentance IS a nessesity to allow the Spirit to dwell within us. There can be no repentant heart so long as ones pride circumvents it. To be 'truly' sorry for our wrong doings, we MUST put aside pride and humble ourselves before God.

Now, it becomes plainer, huh?

I have witnessed MANY that claim to be Christian, yet are SO full of pride that I wonder if it is even possible. We were told by Christ and His apostles that He did NOT come to save those that didn't 'need' saving. In other words, there are many that have ALL that they need, without a need to 'rely' on God's gift. There are many that 'play the game', but offer little else in emulation of Christ. Many of these are those that would 'thank God' that they are NOT like 'the other' sinners out there, totally oblivious to the FACT that we are ALL alike in sin. The sins differ, but that we ALL sin is undeniable.

So, we agree that when we become 'saved' that our conviction through the Spirit will cause an 'increase' in repentance, (at least I think this is safe to say), but where MUST our hearts be in order to receive Christ to 'start with'?

 

[Sothenes]

I wonder if there is not a serious misunderstanding of exactly 'what' repentance is.

If repentance takes place 'after' one has been saved, there would be an indication that there is NO possible repentance 'until' one is saved.

I think you misunderstand the word "believe" because the word believe is "commit" in John 2:24 and is much different than trying to change (repent) when you don't even know what to change. If everyone knew what to repent of then we could just stop having church but the fact is that flesh is sarx and is translated 'sinful nature' in the NIV which you still have and 1 John 1:8-9 says,'if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us' so if you say that you have to repent of everything to have Christ dwelling in you then you are denying the reason that Christ came was to save sinners because you are trying to save yourself. The idea of you having to repent to become sinless so that God can take your sin away is rediculous because only God can take your sin away.

Repentance is not found in the gospel ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-8) even though Paul says,"by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."- 1 Corinthians 1:2 If you add "Repentance" to the gospel, you run the risk of every Christian pronouncing anathama on you because the Bible says,"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."-Galatians 1:8 You are adding to the gospel which saves.

 

[Imagican]

I wonder if there is not a serious misunderstanding of exactly 'what' repentance is.

If repentance takes place 'after' one has been saved, there would be an indication that there is NO possible repentance 'until' one is saved.

I think you misunderstand the word "believe" because the word believe is "commit" in John 2:24 and is much different than trying to change (repent) when you don't even know what to change. Wrong, John the Baptist proves the fallacy of your statement. Even those that didn't know Christ were still able to follow God and were able to repent of their sins. If everyone knew what to repent of then we could just stop having church Couldn't be more wrong for church is completely unable to read my heart and offer advice on how to repent for MY sins. but the fact is that flesh is sarx and is translated 'sinful nature' in the NIV which you still have and 1 John 1:8-9 says,'if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us' so if you say that you have to repent of everything to have Christ dwelling in you then you are denying the reason that Christ came was to save sinners because you are trying to save yourself. The idea of you having to repent to become sinless so that God can take your sin away is rediculous because only God can take your sin away. NO, I did NOT say that one MUST repent for every single instance of sin in their lives. What I stated was that to accept Christ, one MUST possess a repentant HEART. And if your statement was meant to indicate that I believe in the least that I am without sin in my life, you offend me. I don't read nor accept the NIV so to quote it to me is a wasted effort. Others may find it interesting but it is 'just another book to me'. No offense intended but I will quote what I know and that is the KJV.

Repentance is not found in the gospel ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-8) even though Paul says,"by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."- 1 Corinthians 1:2 If you add "Repentance" to the gospel, you run the risk of every Christian pronouncing anathama only by the Catholic Church will I be declared such and if any other church would do so, the so be it. But the truth is the truth whether a church accepts it or not is irrelevant to my Salvation. on you because the Bible says,"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."-Galatians 1:8 You are adding to the gospel which saves.

No, Soth, if there is someone with a misunderstanding here, I would certainly point a finger in a different direction. In order to show how fallacious your statements are:

The Gospels are rife with instances showing the NEED for repentance. i don't know if your statement was a mistake or you meant something other than what you stated, but what you stated is WRONG. Perhaps it may be beneficial to read through the Gospels before making statements about what is or isn't contained within them. It can certainly mislead those that don't any better than you do.

I really didn't realize to importance of quoting scripture in the forums when I first came here. Seemed like a waste of time for I thought that ANYONE that would want to discuss the Bible would NEED to have read it first. I am beginning to see that this may not be the case however:

Of the 26 times that Repentance is used in the Bible, ONLY once is it used in the OT, and ten of it's uses ARE in the Gospels. I would not have even brought up the subject if there were NO indication of it's necessity. I was simply curious as to what others thought of the subject. I see now that I was most right in my assumption of just how UNIMPORTANT many seem to think that it is.

And you have falsely accused me brother. I have added NOTHING to the Gospel nor the rest of the Bible. I have simply come to find what others understand of repentance. It is obvious now that my purpose was not in vain. For through your statements you have proven that those that may accept a similar view as your own are in DESPERATE need of it's understanding.

Let us begin by seeing what the Gospels say about repentance:

Did John the Baptist come to make way for Christ? And if so, what was the FIRST step that John brought to those that would soon be introduced to Christ?

Matthew 3:8

7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

and 3:11

11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Mark 2:17

17When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 5:32

32I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 15:7

7I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luke 24:47

47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Now Soth, these are ONLY the uses of the word 'repentance'. There is also repent, repenting, repented, etc......... And these are ONLY the use of this word in the Gospels, it is also used in a number of the other books of the NT. But let us look at what we have here. I come to call sinners to repentance. Is this NOT a clear indication that repentance is brought about by oneself when made aware of the need for it? To call is to make one aware of it. Christ stated NOTHING about bringing about this repentance except through His teachings.

So please Soth, I appreciate your participation in this issue, but if you don't really understand what it is to which I refer, reading first would be the most prudent option before posting.

 

[Klee shay]

If repentance takes place 'after' one has been saved, there would be an indication that there is NO possible repentance 'until' one is saved.

No GENUINE repentence until one is saved. One can repent and mean it wholeheartedly, but until one is reborn in the Spirit of the Lord and exposed to His grace, we don't know what true repentence is.

For example, a child who feels sorry for disobeying their parents may genuinely apologise - but it's from a child's perspective only. It's not until that child becomes a parent and is exposed to the grace one must hold as a parent, do they realise how sorry they are for ever disobeying their parents in the first place.

I have read your responses and would have to disagree. I believe that if one were to take repentance seriously, it would then become obvious that repentance is what 'BRINGS' us to Christ to begin with.

The Good Shepherd's voice is what brings us to Christ. He said it would. He said he would call and His sheep would know His voice and follow him. Repentence is what we feel in His presence for we know we can trust the Good Shepherd. The Shepherd ALWAYS protects and feeds his flock despite our sin and that's what makes us repent. We see He is the Good Shepherd full of grace.

A simple example would be John baptising in the desert. He was calling those to REPENT whom he baptized.

From the perspective that has been offered so far, this would NOT be possible.

Yes but John only baptised with water, he foretold of one who would come baptising in the spirit. The Spirit we now have because of the life, death and resurrection of Christ. The example of John is in a time before Jesus was sacrificed. I am discussing the Spirit we NOW have. Of course this would not apply to when John baptised with water, and would not be possible then.

And it is clear that repentance played a major part in developing a relationship with God WAY before the possibility of being, 'born again'. So, for one to state that repentance is 'something given' is obviously an incorrect statement.

It is something given but it doesn't mean everyone will take it. Many will be called but few chosen.

Now, back to the original question. Since I have already pointed out that repentance IS possible even for those NOT saved, is repentance necessary TO BE 'saved'?

Jesus said that until we can humble ourselves as children we will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

If so, then is salvation really submission to an authority higher than our own - as a child would submit to their parents? Do you choose to repent first in order for salvation to take place or do you submit to the higher authority first?

If you don't submit, who are you repenting to?

OK, now let me offer the 'why' the question has been posted. I personally believe that it is IMPOSSIBLE to be 'saved' without a repentant heart. NO, not fear of punishment, but a 'true' understanding of one's sins, a NEED for forgiveness, and the humility needed in order realize these things. NOT guilt, but sorrow for that which one has done against the will of God.

Does a child truly know how to feel sorry for their disobedience, until they become parents themselves? Would God hold us accountable for a perspective we have no knowledge about? A person can only feel true sorrow for what they have understanding of. A degree of sorrow is required for salvation - but only to the degree of understanding God knows each individual possess.

With this in mind, I question the validity of those that would teach that repentance comes about 'because' of one's salvation.

A different degree of repentence comes after one's salvation. Until reborn into the understanding God has for us in the Spirit, we can only repent as our flesh understands.

How do we get this relationship? We certainly DO NOT get it from a 'lack' of works, this I can promise you.

I heard a wonderful sermon recently which spoke about using the Grace God has gifted to each individual. It's not a lack of works which disheartens God, but more a lack of trust to use the gifts he has given us. The works aren't the aim to get into heaven, but rather acknowledging the gifts God has given each individual and using them to their maximum potential - in the face of adversity and trusting God with great zeal.

This is what David and Abraham did. It's not the works they achieved which was counted as righteousness, but rather their trust in God and perserverance in His will.

Works or lack of works is not the way to God, but rather learning to understand the grace and gifts he has given us - to step out and do His will with them. The works have to be God's, but through submission to his calling He can use us, and that is what is counted as righteousness.

Simply look back through the history of the Bible and it becomes perfectly clear WHO obtained such a relationship. And they did NOT develope it by NOT working towards it.

Trust and obedience to their one true God is what gave God the opportunity to show His great works through them. I choose to put it this way because I've known many a broken vessel by the hands of religious organisations, who thrusted too many works on an individual in the name of God's calling.

The responsibility was too great. It broke them and nearly their faith, so I've seen the dangers in putting the wrong focus on scriptures. God is the one who does the works. It is up to the individual however to trust God every day of their ordinary lives - to step out with what God has given them, rather than focusing on what they lack; and being willing to submit to His will...not the will of others.

If David had listened to King Saul and the rest of His people, then he never would have tried to fight Golith. But his focus was on God and trusting whatever he gifted him to do the job with. It was not David who defeated Golith but rather David's trust in God which did.

To make my point a little finer, later in the bible David was told not to count his men before a battle by God because God would always assure him victory if he trusted in him. The one time David decided to count his men before a battle, he lost that battle. David shifted his focus from what men could achieve rather than what God could - and he learned how fruitless that pursuit was.

I don't know Imagican, maybe we're onto the same thing but using different ways to describe it. What do you think?

 

[Imagican]

Klee,

While I will agree that our ability to discern those things in our life where we fail more clearly upon being 'born again', I still maintain that there can be no 'reason' to 'come to Christ without repentance. One would utterly miss the 'need' to be forgiven for something that they were unaware that they had done.

Just as mentioned previous, John baptised those that he called to repentance. So too did Christ call ALL men to repentance. The difference between those that are 'born again' and those that are not is that some are called and come, some are called and don't.

As Christ stated, He did NOT come to save the righteous, but the sinner. And the differece between the two is that the sinner 'admits' to thier sin, and the righteous deny or ignore their sin. The difference between the two: Repentance.

While I don't disagree with much of what you have stated, you seem to think like many that I have encountered that believe that they need make NO effort to follow the will of God. That all one need do is sit back and let God 'do everything'. While we are told that He will provide, I also know that Adam, (man), was sentenced to a life of toil for his folly. I also know that there is much scripture that states that he who is NOT willing to work, does not deserve to eat. With these statements in mind, it becomes obvious that there is a degree of WORK involved with following the will of God. Varying from individual to individaul of course, but only in the degree that one is ABLE.

And using this as an example, to think that we need not offer the love that Christ offered as example is to deny what Christ offered. Salvation is NOT a gift to EVERYONE. Christ died for EVERYONE that is WILLING TO ACCEPT IT, but there will be many, (most), that will refuse to accept the offer. And many of these will be those that 'claim' to be Christian. Now, what distinguishes those that really have accepted Christ into their hearts and those that just 'pretend'? It becomes obvious that repentance plays a large roll in the difference. For I have witnessed many 'so called' Christians that seem to believe that they are 'better than others'. They will point out the sin of one as being a dividing line between themselves and others.

It all goes back to the point of taking the log out of ones own eye before trying to remove the splinter from another's. And I believe that this all leads to repentance. Without it, one could not possibly believe that they truly 'needed' Christ. For what did Christ offer? Forgiveness. Without repentance there can be NO NEED for forgiveness. For how would one be able see what they were not willing to admit?

 

[Klee shay]

I still maintain that there can be no 'reason' to 'come to Christ without repentance.

I agree that repentence is necessary for salvation.

I think we only disagree on how that repentence takes its necessary form, for salvation.

The two criminals who died beside Jesus is a good example here. One was aware of His crimes and repented to Jesus - not for forgiveness of his crimes; but merely because he saw the grace in an innocent man (the Son of God) who did not deserve to die next to a criminal.

The other tried to use Jesus's position as the Son of God, to get him to prove His grace and rescue them all. What is the difference between these two men when they both realised they were sinners paying for their crimes? One tried to use Jesus for his salvation and the other gave up his life next to Jesus, knowing Jesus was worthy of life and not the death worthy or his own crimes.

One would utterly miss the 'need' to be forgiven for something that they were unaware that they had done.

The criminal next to Jesus did not ask for forgiveness for a crime he knew he did. He merely acknowledged that Jesus was the Son of God and worthy to be returned to His Father's side for all the good he did bring to mankind.

Whether you are aware of your sins or whether you are not aware of your sins, the aim of salvation - the means in which we are saved, is by the grace of someone who did not deserve to die but abided in His Father's will for a greater cause of love. If acknowledging this (regardless of remorse for sins) is not repentence worthy of salvation, I don't know what is?

Jesus certainly acknowledged it in the heart of the criminal who according to the Lord's promise, would see paradise that day.

So too did Christ call ALL men to repentance.

Do you have a particular scripture in mind with that statement, just so I can share the authority in which you speak? I believe Jesus did in effect call all men into repentence, but as a result of doing His Father's will.

When we're talking about salvation, we can try to mimick Jesus in doing His Father's will but it's the grace of Jesus (achieved on the cross) which leads to mankind's salvation - and the sinner acknowledging that grace.

you seem to think like many that I have encountered that believe that they need make NO effort to follow the will of God. That all one need do is sit back and let God 'do everything'.

The effort comes in trusting God...that is not an easy thing to do for a sinner. The effort to persevere in God's will is not sitting back at all.

The difference between the God's will you describe in the scriptures and the God's will which reveals itself to the individual on a daily basis are two different things. Why? Because the one written in scripture comes through the prompting of men saying 'this is what God says will lead to your salvation', while the other can only come from the authority of God who prompts a sinner to persevere in His will in the face of temptation.

I think it's essential to respect the written scripture, but its only a 'back-up' to verify what the spirit leads a person to believe on a daily basis. The written word is a guarantee if you like so that people don't go all silly with what their Spirit is telling them to do. My Spirit doesn't tell me to contradict the scriptures, but it calls me to challenge the scriptures to "live" the experience.

Repentence of men begins with remorse for sins, of course, but repentence for salvation's sake begins when we are reborn in the Spirit - and this is what we're talking about. It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit afterall, which brings us into salvation. The source being the Grace of God to forgive the sins of mankind who see the life, death and resurrection of His Son as a sacrifice worthy of His love.

It doesn't end there of course, we must persevere every day so that we aren't brought into temptation to defy the grace in which we are saved.

And using this as an example, to think that we need not offer the love that Christ offered as example is to deny what Christ offered.

I agree we need to feel the love of Christ in order to give the love of Christ...but what of the individuals which have constantly been attacked by the enemy and had any form of love distorted in their lives? You covered it in this statement:

Varying from individual to individaul of course, but only in the degree that one is ABLE.

To give the love of Christ which he wants us to share with others, first He needs to redeem us from the love we were taught in this world at the hands of mankind. To begin this process we need to repent and submit ourselves to His grace, but Christians seem to have no patience with God's timing. We push ourselves and others towards an outcome we want - to demonstrate the love of Christ - without waiting for the Lord to redeem us through every distorted idea we have about His love.

A Christians hardest task is merely to persevere IN THE WILL OF GOD. For the will of God shows us perfect love and it directly contradicts the love of this world we have been shown.

Without repentance there can be NO NEED for forgiveness. For how would one be able see what they were not willing to admit?

The grace of Christ shows us what we're not willing to admit, not our repentence. Reptenence is merely opening the door for the Lord to come in and sup with us. And we need to repent frequently because we tend to close the door sometimes.

I agree with your sentiments on the desire to work towards the Lord's will and to humble ourselves in repentence, so that we don't consider ourselves higher than we ought. But the means of doing this is in the living Word not just the written. When mankind tries to interpret the written word for the rest of mankind we inevitably put our own twist on it; and that is not the WHOLE truth.

I do not speak the whole truth - you do not speak the whole truth. Only the Spirit reveals the whole truth as Jesus promised His disciples.

I'm not against you Imagican, I just believe there is more to it and I'm always searching for His truth - both in the living Word and the written word. Which I'm sure is what you are endeavouring to do as well. God bless. :D

 

[mutzrein]

I have to ask the question. Is repentance a human decision?

I would say yes. That being the case, what did Jesus say about those who are born again? “. . . children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.â€Â

What decision does a child make in order to be born? None. The gift of life is given it by its parents. And so it is with God. The gift of eternal life is not of human decision. It is given by God to those whom he has chosen to give it. We don’t repent in order to gain it.

So repentance is for those who have already been gifted a relationship with God.

 

[Sothenes]

I have to ask the question. Is repentance a human decision?

I would say yes. That being the case, what did Jesus say about those who are born again? “. . . children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.â€Â

What decision does a child make in order to be born? None. The gift of life is given it by its parents. And so it is with God. The gift of eternal life is not of human decision. It is given by God to those whom he has chosen to give it. We don’t repent in order to gain it.

So repentance is for those who have already been gifted a relationship with God.

2 Timothy 2:25 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

 

[mutzrein]

I have to ask the question. Is repentance a human decision?

I would say yes. That being the case, what did Jesus say about those who are born again? “. . . children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.â€Â

What decision does a child make in order to be born? None. The gift of life is given it by its parents. And so it is with God. The gift of eternal life is not of human decision. It is given by God to those whom he has chosen to give it. We don’t repent in order to gain it.

So repentance is for those who have already been gifted a relationship with God.

2 Timothy 2:25 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Amen!