G
gingercat
Guest
Sothenes said:
If we are trully seeking Him, then He will give us repentance. God is seeking our truthful heart!!!
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If we are trully seeking Him, then He will give us repentance. God is seeking our truthful heart!!!
T
thessalonian
Guest
Klee,
I disagree.
Luke 23
[40] But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
[41] And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."
[42] And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
This man recognized his guilt in the prescence of an innocent God. He had a repentent heart for what he had done and acknowledged it. We need to repent of what we have done and then the grace of God can work in us. The heart that will not acknowledge it's sin is a hard heart. Grace cannot work in it.
I disagree.
Luke 23
[40] But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
[41] And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."
[42] And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
This man recognized his guilt in the prescence of an innocent God. He had a repentent heart for what he had done and acknowledged it. We need to repent of what we have done and then the grace of God can work in us. The heart that will not acknowledge it's sin is a hard heart. Grace cannot work in it.
G
gingercat
Guest
thessalonian said:
good point thess, I agree. :D
S
Sothenes
Guest
thessalonian said:
How does saying 'remember me' translate into 'forgive me' or 'I'm repentant"? How does 'fear' translate into repentance? It doesn't spell it out though you are trying to say that repentance was inclusive.
G
gingercat
Guest
Sothenes said:
This man was surely showing remorseful attitude and recognized His Divine nature.
God is seeking our sincere heart.
I am not eloquent like many of you; according to you I am failing to be His servant.
Vic C.
Member
If I may add to imagician's post...
Let's go back to the root of the word "repentance"; Repent. It is used 24 times in the KJ. I'm inclined to believe scripture puts repentance before salvation. Otherwise, if one gets "saved" but doesnt repent, do they then lose their salvation? If one eventually repents after losing salvation, do they get their salvation back and will they lose it again if they don't repent for a future transgression? Where does it end? Gain, lose, gain, lose, gain, lose....
Hmm.
G
gingercat
Guest
vic said:
The Bible is cautioning us of our daily mindful of walk with Him. If we have this in mind, we will not have this kind of yo-yo walk with the Lord.
Continual prayerful walk with the Lord. Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, strength and mind. This is not an easy task, vic. It is daily struggle, that's why we need Jesus.
T
thessalonian
Guest
Sothenes said:
[41] And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."
That has I am repentent written all over it. The passage does not have to say it explicitly in the manner that you require. Jesus as God can read the man's heart. I can read it quite easily from this passage. The man recognizes that he deserves his punishment. Note a bit earlier he actually was chiding jesus along with the other theif. This clearly shows a repentant heart, a changed heart.
B
belovedwolfofgod
Guest
If you guys follow the charismatic movement, the healing ministers who use prayer and charisms to heal people through the power of Christ recognize that repentence must usually precede healing (unless there is no need of repentence associated with that particular instance of healing). Sanctifying grace, the grace that saves, is a regeneration and a healing of our souls and natures. It only makes sense that repentence must naturally precede salvation.
(References: Agnes Sanford, Dr. Francis ManNutt)
(References: Agnes Sanford, Dr. Francis ManNutt)
S
Sothenes
Guest
vic said:
I believe that repentance is a work and a result of salvation. I think that belief in God itself contains all the repentance that we initially need and I can show that through the scriptures I am willing to quote.
My second point is grace. Grace is unmerited favor and if you say that you have to repent for salvation then you are saying that grace plus merit saves which is the Catholic gospel.
If you can repent for salvation then theoretically you could lose your salvation but how do you lose your salvation if you are sealed with the spirit? Is God an Indian giver? Does God give eternal life to those He foreknew would lose it?
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
I have more arguments and I would like to answer Imagican but I'm hesitant to rush through the subject.
T
thessalonian
Guest
Sothenes said:
The mistake in your arguement is that you separate what we do from God's grace. One repents by God's grace. It is his work! It is not our works like the slaughter of goats and rams that could be done by man's power. Repentence is in the spirtual realm and true repentence requires the power of God. We are incapable of repenting on our own. God's grace brings us to repentence but it cannot do the repenting itself.
As long as you keep creating this dichotomy between what we do and God's grace you will have these same types of difficultires. You will not even be able to claim that we have to have faith before we are saved because faith is our act. No, God brings us to faith by his grace working externally on us once again. It becomes internal when our hearts are changed and we repent and let the Holy Spirit in. This of course all happens by God's grace but once again we must repent and let the Holy Spirit in. He will not force himself in.
Blessings
I
Imagican
Guest
While I will certainly agree that repentance takes on a more intricate phase upon one 'being saved', isn't it repentance that convicts us of our 'need' for salvation to 'begin with'?
I offer once again, what would there be to 'tempt' or 'move' one to the acceptance of 'forgiveness' if there were NO repentance? There are obviously those that will NEVER repent or see a 'need' to, thereby sealing their fate in the refusal to accept the gift offered. The only difference that I can see between these people is repentance.
Now, for those that believe in predestination, or that people are chosen without ANY decision of their own, the idea of repentance ONLY existing after one is saved makes perfect sense. Unfortunately, there is Too MUCH scripture that points to one opening up their own heart in order to let Christ in for me to accept this. I personally have experienced individuals who KNEW God existed and KNEW Christ existed and purposely defied them both with indignation and an openess that boggles the mind. But, they did this OPENLY and of their own accord. Not talking about what may have influenced them, I'm talking about the choice REGARDLESS of influence. There are many that believe in other gods. These too do so because of 'choice'. And that there are many that are 'their own gods' is another indication of choice.
So, from my perspective, the difference between ALL these is a repentant heart. For without this, what else could possibly lead us to the Father through His Son. We must FIRST humble ourselves by putting 'self' aside. Then we must TRULY be sorry for what we have done and realize that there IS forgiveness offered through the Son. And, we must truly WANT to allow Christ and the Father to guide us through our lives. If these are not repentance then I must be confused as to what the word means.
I offer once again, what would there be to 'tempt' or 'move' one to the acceptance of 'forgiveness' if there were NO repentance? There are obviously those that will NEVER repent or see a 'need' to, thereby sealing their fate in the refusal to accept the gift offered. The only difference that I can see between these people is repentance.
Now, for those that believe in predestination, or that people are chosen without ANY decision of their own, the idea of repentance ONLY existing after one is saved makes perfect sense. Unfortunately, there is Too MUCH scripture that points to one opening up their own heart in order to let Christ in for me to accept this. I personally have experienced individuals who KNEW God existed and KNEW Christ existed and purposely defied them both with indignation and an openess that boggles the mind. But, they did this OPENLY and of their own accord. Not talking about what may have influenced them, I'm talking about the choice REGARDLESS of influence. There are many that believe in other gods. These too do so because of 'choice'. And that there are many that are 'their own gods' is another indication of choice.
So, from my perspective, the difference between ALL these is a repentant heart. For without this, what else could possibly lead us to the Father through His Son. We must FIRST humble ourselves by putting 'self' aside. Then we must TRULY be sorry for what we have done and realize that there IS forgiveness offered through the Son. And, we must truly WANT to allow Christ and the Father to guide us through our lives. If these are not repentance then I must be confused as to what the word means.
N
Nocturnal_Principal_X
Guest
Admittedly, that is a difficult question for me to answer, however; I believe a person should repent. According to Scripture a person is to repent of their sin and accept Jesus.Imagican said:
In fact look at how Paul witnessed to religious unbelievers in Acts 17:
Acts 17:18 notes that he witnessed to “Epicurean and Stoic philosophers.â€Â
A little further down Paul says the following after affirming that they were religious individuals:
Acts 17:29-31:
“Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.â€Â
Paul clearly told the “Epicurean and Stoic philosophers†that they should repent.
Now does repentance save a person…I don’t believe so. Can a person accept Jesus and not repent…no. I say no because I believe that repentance and accepting Jesus go together. Having one without the other is impossible in my mind. Furthermore I believe if a person genuinely wants to accept Jesus they would be more then willing to repent.
As I understand it, based on what I have read from Scripture, the Old Testament and the Law in a lot of ways convicts a person of their sins and shows them the need for a savior. That being the case it seems only natural that a person who wants to accept Jesus as Lord of their life and their personal savior would naturally repent of their sin and admit that they need Jesus Christ to save them not only from damnation but from their sin nature as well.
Perhaps I have not answered the question very well but the above is what I can come up with at this point. I personally believe in Perseverance of the Saints (or once saved always saved). In fact I agree in large part with a lot of Calvinism. Even though that is the case I still believe everyone is accountable for their belief or disbelief in Jesus Christ. I think if one where to look up the theological view points of some famous known Calvinist, such as Charles H. Spurgeon and Jonathan Edwards; they would see that accountability for sin and the need to be repentant of sin was very much a part of their beliefs.
In fact Charles H. Spurgeon had this to say about repentance:
“Repentance is a part of salvation, and when Christ saves us, he saves us by making us repent. But repentance does not save. It is the work of God alone.â€Â
“I learn from the Scriptures that repentance is just as necessary to salvation as faith is, and the faith that has not repentance going with it will have to be repented of.â€Â
“Repentance and faith are like Siamese twins. If one is sick the other cannot be well, for they live but one life. If ever you are asked which comes first, repentance or faith, you may answer by another question: “Which spoke of a wheel moves first when the wheel moves first when the wheel begins?â€Â
In fact Charles H. Spurgeon has said a lot about repentance but in the interest of space I only posted that which I thought was necessary. Also, I think the last quote goes in line with what I believe about repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.
(All quotes from 2,200 Quotations From The Writings of Charles H. Spurgeon. Compiled by Tom Carter. Fourth Addition. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 2005, pages 174-175.)
K
Klee shay
Guest
Thessalonian said:
Yes, I agree with you Thess, he indeed showed a repentent heart but he didn't repent of His sins and ask for forgiveness for those sins. Instead he admitted that the death of crucifixion was worthy punishment for His crimes, but not for the Son of God who had done nothing wrong.
The way you have described this scripture is exactly how I see it as well, however, I do not draw the conclusion that because the man had a repentent heart THAT is what saved Him. Of course, by the same token, if he did not have a repentent heart how could Jesus promise that he would see paradise that day?
A truly repentent heart submits to the grace of God and it is the grace of God which saves. If nothing else in this discussion, I think you and I probably agree on the grace of God saving. :wink:
K
Klee shay
Guest
Imagican said:
For the righteous perhaps?
If you look at it from the perspective of one who is lost however, there is no desire to repent to a God they cannot understand. Many who are lost have been devoured by this world and the ideas which come with them.
If Jesus came for the sinners, not the righteous; then how does he get a sinner to see that He is the way to salvation in a world that says we don't need a God? How did he get people to repent in the OT? First, He showed the grace of God to forgive, to heal, to sustain and to raise the dead. It is the grace of God which leads to repentence required for salvation, in a world which teaches human self-reliance.
I agree wholeheartedly that repentence convicts us of our need for salvation, but only once our eyes have been opened to the grace of God.
Imagican said:
The Love of God is what changes the heart of the lost. Does one have to have a repentent heart in order to accept that love - yes - but first one has to see the love worth rejecting their worldly ideals for.
Imagican said:
What kind of repentence though? There are those who'll repent simply because they fear losing their salvation. Repentence is what they've been taught so repentence is what they offer the Lord. Not a bad offering by any means because scripture says it is good for man to repent to God and ask for forgiveness.
But there will also be those who'll repent because they see the grace of God alone. They know they are guilty of all of their crimes and there is nothing they can do to make amends - especially if they are broken people, having done wrong because that is all they've known. Having tasted of the love and grace of God however, they are prepared to hope for something more than what they've known and learn more about that life.
For a broken, hardened heart it is only the love of God which saves. Does that person have to repent - of course they do - but by the love of God and not the man-made ideal that repentence is what saves.
I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that repentence is required for salvation, however, it is the grace of God which saves. How a person is lead into repentence worthy enough for salvation, is by the grace of God also. Let's get the order right in case we consider ourselves higher than we ought to. :wink:
S
Sothenes
Guest
Imagican said:
How can you have an action if there wasn't already a change of mind? You're saying that an outward act causes an inward change of mind. That isn't true because it starts at the level of the heart. You have to make the disctinctions between actions. Inward and outward are two different actions whereas inward is more of a reaction to faith while outward is an action.
You think that repentance causes this change inwardly but it is really "the work of faith with power" ( 2 Thess. 1:11) that causes change.
S
Sothenes
Guest
thessalonian said:
Lets try to summarize this. You said that bringing man to repentance is God's work but you said God's grace can't do the repenting itself. You said that true repentance requires the power of God but that we must repent and let the Holy Spirit in.
God's grace can do the repenting itself because "it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" - Philippians 2:13 Repentance would therefore be a result of His work and not a cause.
What I see is a problem of semantics. You should really back up to the beginning:
"Faith alone saves. Somebody says,'What about repentance? Don't we need to repent?' Well, the word for repent, metanoeo, means 'to change your mind.' And all the repentance God ask for is in the word believe.",p.178-179,"Doctrine For Difficult Days" by Dr. J. Vernon McGee. The reason 'believe' contains repentance is that it is the same word for 'commit' in John 2:24 and you can't turn or commit to something unless you turn from something: "For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God."- 1 Thessalonians 1:9 It is belief that caused the distribution to God from idols. It doesn't say that they turned from idols to God which would have been an outward repentance for salvation but the fact that it says they turned to God from idols means that they repented as a result of belief.
When you say that repentance is a requirement for salvation then that repentance is not necessarily from God because true repentance comes from the result of faith and not as a work or the results of work. When you hound people to measure up or consider that they aren't a Christian based on the fact that they aren't working then you are proclaiming that salvation isn't finished.
“Then Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.â€Â-John 19:30
When you teach that repentance is necessary for salvation instead of as a result of salvation then you are teaching that it isn't finished because 'teleo' means that someone has to pay for your sins whether it be Christ or yourself. If you require other people to repent as a work then you are telling them to pay for their sins themselves without Christ or you are making an equation that it is Christ plus repentance (some visible work) which saves.
If you and others feel that if a brother sins then he didn't repent. Then who isn't guilty of not repenting because we all sin ( 1 John 1:8-9)? If you sin then did you really repent? But if you say that you have no sin ( 1 John 1:8)or say that we have not sinned (1 John 1:10) then you make God a liar. If you have received repentance through faith and if that is a requirement then you have to explain why you and I still sin because we didn't repent of what we do every day. Just because I can't name some sins in my life doesn't mean that I don't have them. The question is that other people aren't saved because we aren't like them yet we are no different because we all still sin, our righteousness is still as filthy rags apart from Christ and we all have fallen short of God's glory.
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."- Romans 10:9
Notice that the verse does not say,'if thou shalt confess thy sins" or 'if you feel sorry for your sins' but it says if you confess the Lord Jesus and believe that you will be saved.
It is a hard subject and I wish to take my time because this is not the last that I will say on the matter, Lord willing.
I
Imagican
Guest
Noc,
I think you did a very admirable job at answering the question. I believe that you see what I am trying to bring to mind. While I myself will not claim a 'perfect' understanding, I believe that repentance comes FIRST since this is the example we see over and over. If we have NO responsibility other than confessing Christ as Savior, then repentance doesn't play a part in being 'born again'. Only 'after the fact. But, if salvation is a 'choice', then repentance is CERTAINLY paramont to being 'born again'. For without repentance, there can be NO understanding of the NEED for forgiveness.
I think you did a very admirable job at answering the question. I believe that you see what I am trying to bring to mind. While I myself will not claim a 'perfect' understanding, I believe that repentance comes FIRST since this is the example we see over and over. If we have NO responsibility other than confessing Christ as Savior, then repentance doesn't play a part in being 'born again'. Only 'after the fact. But, if salvation is a 'choice', then repentance is CERTAINLY paramont to being 'born again'. For without repentance, there can be NO understanding of the NEED for forgiveness.
S
Sothenes
Guest
Imagican said:
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Does your Bible say "what" or "who"? If Repentance comes first than it is "what" shall deliver me from the body of this death but if it is "who" then it isn't repentance.
I
Imagican
Guest
Klee,
How does one that is raised in the church from early childhood, then turn their back on God and live for the world?
Easy answer. They CHOOSE to. They allow their hearts to be hardened and turn away. It's the same for the sinner that recognizes the NEED for forgiveness. Why one is hardened and another softened is a matter of individuality. Some will NOT allow the truth into their hearts no matter what. Some will and these will find the truth.
What separates the two? The state of thier heart. And this is UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL. Each of us is born with a 'clean slate'. What we write on it is OUR CHOICE. Regardless of influence. Some WILL be influenced by God and others will choose His foe. But, in the end, it is up to each of us who we will follow.
Some will undoubtably NEVER open up their eyes or their hearts in order to see or feel God. But those that are willing will find the need for repentance to be paramont to developing a personal relationship with God. When Christ indicated this, many turned and walked away. Showing that these realized that repentance was NOT going to take place in their hearts. They KNEW this and turned away, refusing the gift offered. Others continued in their faith and grew through Christ.
How does one that is raised in the church from early childhood, then turn their back on God and live for the world?
Easy answer. They CHOOSE to. They allow their hearts to be hardened and turn away. It's the same for the sinner that recognizes the NEED for forgiveness. Why one is hardened and another softened is a matter of individuality. Some will NOT allow the truth into their hearts no matter what. Some will and these will find the truth.
What separates the two? The state of thier heart. And this is UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL. Each of us is born with a 'clean slate'. What we write on it is OUR CHOICE. Regardless of influence. Some WILL be influenced by God and others will choose His foe. But, in the end, it is up to each of us who we will follow.
Some will undoubtably NEVER open up their eyes or their hearts in order to see or feel God. But those that are willing will find the need for repentance to be paramont to developing a personal relationship with God. When Christ indicated this, many turned and walked away. Showing that these realized that repentance was NOT going to take place in their hearts. They KNEW this and turned away, refusing the gift offered. Others continued in their faith and grew through Christ.