Repentance; Necessary for Salvation???

[Imagican]

Noc,

I think you did a very admirable job at answering the question. I believe that you see what I am trying to bring to mind. While I myself will not claim a 'perfect' understanding, I believe that repentance comes FIRST since this is the example we see over and over. If we have NO responsibility other than confessing Christ as Savior, then repentance doesn't play a part in being 'born again'. Only 'after the fact. But, if salvation is a 'choice', then repentance is CERTAINLY paramont to being 'born again'. For without repentance, there can be NO understanding of the NEED for forgiveness.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

And I offer that you have made my point. To simply read what you have offered is to understand that the person speaking here is FULL of repentance. Now that repentance has taken place WHO shall deliever? Christ indeed. But, look at the passage that you offered and understand; This is someone that IS repentant and looking for the answer. Thank you may friend for I couldn't have found a 'better' way of making my point.

Does your Bible say "what" or "who"? If Repentance comes first than it is "what" shall deliver me from the body of this death but if it is "who" then it isn't repentance.

 

[Klee shay]

How does one that is raised in the church from early childhood, then turn their back on God and live for the world?

Easy answer. They CHOOSE to.

I don't think it is as simple as that. What you are supposing is that a person who rejects God has understood what they're rejecting. Often they are rejecting religion, not God.

They allow their hearts to be hardened and turn away. It's the same for the sinner that recognizes the NEED for forgiveness. Why one is hardened and another softened is a matter of individuality. Some will NOT allow the truth into their hearts no matter what. Some will and these will find the truth.

I'm a firm believer that humanity on the whole is ignorant...myself included. This is why I have hope that people with hardened hearts can be softened. Who among us are not ignorant until we know better?

What separates the two? The state of thier heart. And this is UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL. Each of us is born with a 'clean slate'. What we write on it is OUR CHOICE. Regardless of influence. Some WILL be influenced by God and others will choose His foe. But, in the end, it is up to each of us who we will follow.

Yes ultimately the choice is up to the individual, but I cannot agree that what we write on our slate is always our choice. If you're given a perception from youth, you tend to adopt that perception until you know better. When you know better THEN you have something to choose between.

Some will undoubtably NEVER open up their eyes or their hearts in order to see or feel God. But those that are willing will find the need for repentance to be paramont to developing a personal relationship with God. When Christ indicated this, many turned and walked away. Showing that these realized that repentance was NOT going to take place in their hearts. They KNEW this and turned away, refusing the gift offered. Others continued in their faith and grew through Christ.

I like this analogy. I can just see Jesus feeling who was refusing the gift and who wasn't...and yet he chose to die nonetheless. This I believe is the hope of God. In the face of rejection he offers an olive branch. My hope is in God's hope - that we don't give up on those who reject the olive branch straight away.

If we write them off and call it "their choice" according to what they "understand"...what place is there for the hope of God?

Rather than pointing at the failures of mankind to repent adequately enough for salvation, shouldn't we be pointing towards the hope of God? The hope of God that we'll all love him enough to repent in the end. How does a hardened heart love God though? When they realise that God doesn't repent in the face of their rejection. :wink:

God bless Imagican. You raise some thoughtful issues I will enjoy thinking about more. :D

 

[Imagican]

I always wonder when I read some of the replies concerning 'works' of any sort, if Paul simply 'sat back' and let God do 'all the work'? Weren't we told that to follow Christ would incure a degree of 'suffering'? If this is so, wouldn't we have to 'choose' to suffer for the sake of Christ? I mean, just like He could have turned His back on us and refused to die for our sins, aren't we too able to follow or reject Christ?

And, if we are to EMULATE Christ, how can this even be attempted without an effort on our parts? Many of you try to make it sound like we are to simply turn EVERYTHING over to God and do NOTHING on our own. Yet Christ TOLD us MANY things that we ARE TO DO.

We were TOLD to run the race like we MEAN TO WIN IT. What does this mean to you? That simply stating that Christ is our Savior and showing up at church once a week is IT? Hardly, my friends. To pick up and bear our own cross takes WORK my friends. NO, you cannot 'work' your way to heaven, but to get there certainly takes work.

 

[Sothenes]

NO, you cannot 'work' your way to heaven, but to get there certainly takes work.

Unless you are Mary ;)

Luk 10:38 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.

Luk 10:39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.

Luk 10:40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.

Luk 10:41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:

Luk 10:42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

Unless you are Mary ;)

"Hail Mary, full of grace."

 

[Imagican]

Ah, I think this be a different Mary....................

 

[Klee shay]

I always wonder when I read some of the replies concerning 'works' of any sort, if Paul simply 'sat back' and let God do 'all the work'?

Even Paul was judged as not doing enough, according to what the other Apostles were doing. So we all fall into the same condemnation. Mankind will never make up the gap Christ did, and therefore we will all be judged as not doing enough.

To what end?

I mean, just like He could have turned His back on us and refused to die for our sins, aren't we too able to follow or reject Christ?

Knowing his Father, could Jesus have chosen not to forgive us so clearly? ...O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. Matthew 26:39.

Jesus gave his life to His Father - that was His choice. Anything he did after that, came from the Father. To suggest Jesus could have chosen not to forgive us, is to suggest that God sent his son to die on the cross knowing Jesus would not fulfill His word.

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. John 6:38-39

And, if we are to EMULATE Christ, how can this even be attempted without an effort on our parts? Many of you try to make it sound like we are to simply turn EVERYTHING over to God and do NOTHING on our own.

Isn't that what Jesus did? For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38.

Jesus did nothing of His own will; only what His Father willed. Mankind should emulate the same.

For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Mark 13:34

Yes there is work to be done but every servant has been given his work. Paul, his, yours' and mine - we need to return to the authority given us (via the word of God) however to make sure we don't start believing our own authority of what work is required for salvation.

Submission to God's authority is repentence enough for salvation; and the works given thereafter to determine how far we are prepared to trust God's will.

Yet Christ TOLD us MANY things that we ARE TO DO.

I agree. We should persevere with God in doing what we can.

We were TOLD to run the race like we MEAN TO WIN IT. What does this mean to you?

Dont' take salvation for granted. :wink: