Repentance Vs. Eternal Security

[Butch5]

butch



I sin everyday and all day,yet not I,but sin that dwelleth in me ! Rom 7:20

20 Now if I do that I would not [which is sin], it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

I'd suggest a deeper study on this passage.

Thats because you do not believe God's Word 1 Jn 3:9

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I do believe it. However, I believe it in a way that doesn't contradict other things John said. Your understanding is contradictory to other things John said.

 

[savedbygrace57]

I'd suggest a deeper study on this passage.







I do believe it. However, I believe it in a way that doesn't contradict other things John said. Your understanding is contradictory to other things John said.

No you don't believe that He that is born of God cannot sin and does not sin ! 1 Jn 3:9

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The Man that is born of God has been Created like this Eph 4:24

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

To listen to you, the new man created is no better off than the old man !

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

eb



Yes it does. The word cannot in the greek is made up of two words :

ou = no, not; and dynamai =to be able, have power whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom

2) to be able to do something

3) to be capable, strong and powerful

And because ou is the negative, it means not able, not capable to do something.

The one born of God does not have the ability to sin !

1 Jn 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

Christians do sin.

Thats not the same, for one has the capabiblty to disobey what is forbidden. The one who is born of God does not have the abiblity to sin ! Its like, one cannot run a red light if they do not have a car in the first place to be able to do it !

It is the same thing for "cannot' does not mean impossible. You avoided the point by diverting to whether one has a car or not which is not an issue.

One born of God cannot sin period.

John said Christians sin and a Christian is a liar if he says he has no sin.

Thats being born of the Flesh, that is not one born of God.

The one born of God is born out of an incorruptible seed 1 Pet 1:23

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Mans birth out of adam is out of corruptible seed, a different birth altogether, sorry ! The one born out of Incorruptible Seed is not a descendant of Adam !

Everyone is a desendant of Adam. No way of getting around that for Adam was the first man.

 

[savedbygrace57]

b5

1 Jn 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the
truth is not in us."

I never said a believe is without sin, nor that a believer does not sin, in fact I stated that I as a believer sin every day.

However, the one born of God does not sin and cannot sin because he is born of God 1 Jn 3:9

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Yes, the believer does sin, but , it is no longer him [ the one born of God] but sin that dwells in him Rom 7:15-17

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

It is the same thing for "cannot' does not mean impossible.

Yes it does, it means you do not have the ability to do it. The one born of God, has a sinless nature in that Nature born of God !

How can a Man Created like this Eph 4:24

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

You put that man on the same level as God's Old Created man in Adam. Thats false teaching !

 

[Butch5]

No you don't believe that He that is born of God cannot sin and does not sin ! 1 Jn 3:9

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The Man that is born of God has been Created like this Eph 4:24

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

To listen to you, the new man created is no better off than the old man !

It's interesting that you know what I believe. However, it can be seen from your quotes that your interpretation of the passage clearly contradicts John's words in the same book.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1Jo 1:8 KJV)

KJV 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (1Jo 2:1 KJV)

The interpretation you give to the passage "cannot sin" is clearly contradicting what John said here. So, I would have to ask who is it that doesn't believe what John said?

 

[savedbygrace57]

b5

It's interesting that you know what I believe.

Sure you are posting it on a public forum duh !

The interpretation you give to the passage "cannot sin" is clearly
contradicting what John said here.

No its not, He that is born of God cannot sin 1 Jn 3:9

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

You lack faith in God's Truth !

 

[iLOVE]

Repentance Vs. Eternal Security = When we confess, mercy shows up. When we don't, we have no fellowship with God. So when we confess it and forsake it, the Blood of Lord Jesus continue to cleanse us.

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

13 Whoever conceals their sins does not prosper,
but the one who confesses and renounces them finds mercy. Proverbs 28:13

 

[reba]

These forums are not the place for personal insults. Forums Staff

 

[Butch5]

b5



Sure you are posting it on a public forum duh !

It would take a lot more than 700+ posts on this forum for you to know what I believe. I believe you're reading into what I say. Please, just read the words that post.

No its not, He that is born of God cannot sin 1 Jn 3:9

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

You lack faith in God's Truth !

Dude, I've posted the verse plainly. You posted,

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1Jo 3:9 KJV)

and said a Christian cannot sin. However, prior to this passage John wrote,

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1Jo 1:8 KJV)



KJV 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (1Jo 2:1 KJV)

John said, if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves. You're interpretation of 1 John 3:9 contradicts these two statements. I believe you have a misunderstanding of Paul's words in Romans 7:20 which is causing this misunderstanding of John's words.

 

[heymikey80]

John 6:37 -- "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

Those men were not cast out, however, one did leave.

Yeah, but there, Jesus Himself says that one was not given to Him by the Father:

'"But there are some of you who do not believe.†(For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."' John 6:64-65 ESV

 

[heymikey80]

Those men were not cast out, however, one did leave.

John 6:37 -- "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

The verb "cometh" is present tense, middle voice. The present tense denotes an ongoing, sustained coming and not just a one time or sporadic coming to Christ. So those that quit coming can be cast out. The middle voice shows one comes to Christ of his own will.

Jn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. "

This verse explains how God draws men and it is not randomly or unconditonally but men are drawn when they are taught, heard and learn of God. God draws by His word the bible. Then upon being taught, hearing and learning then men come unto Christ....God draws, men come. Again, as in verse 37 the verb cometh in this verse is present tense, middle voice.

Oh, you're liking that verb tense, are you? Well, I hate pointing it out, but "will come to me" is future tense, as is "will never cast out". God gives people, then they will come to Christ. All of 'em.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Oh, you're liking that verb tense, are you? Well, I hate pointing it out, but "will come to me" is future tense, as is "will never cast out". God gives people, then they will come to Christ. All of 'em.

Jn 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. "

The reference source I am using is blueletterbible.com which shows the verb usage as:


(tense, voice, mood):

giveth: present, active, indicative

shall come: future, active, indicative

cometh: present, middle or passive deponent, participle

cast: second aorist, active, subjunctive


The verb 'cometh' is present tense, middle deponent meaning the coming must be ongoing, sustained and the coming is done by choice not by force. What happens to the ones who of their own will choose to continuely, ongoingly come to Christ? They shall not be cast out.

The verb 'cast' is subjunctive mood which "is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances." - Strongs.
So one may or may not be cast out depending upon if he continues to come to Christ or quits. So if he quits coming to Christ he can be cast out.


The phrase "all that the Father gives Me" is a reference to that class of people that will be saved not a reference to certain individuals randomly chosen unconditionally before the world began.

"shall come to me" - here 'come' is the condition that must be met to be part of the saved group, i.e., those that the Father giveth. Only those that shall come, no more and no less, are the ones that make up the saved, ie, the ones that the Father gives.

Jn 6:45 explains how God draws and men come "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

God draws by His word when His word is taught, heard and learned. Men upon being taught, hearing and learning are drawn and then come to Christ. (The verb cometh in this verse is also present tense, middle voice)


You posted "God gives people, then they will come to Christ. All of 'em. "

God does not give anyone that will not conditionally come to Christ for that's the meaning and purpose of the clause "shall come to Me". And one cannot come to Christ until they first have been drawn by being taught, hearing and learning God's word.

At this point in time of Jn 6 the OT law was still in effect and the NT gospel had not come into effect. People are called by the gospel 2 Thess 2:14. So those in the future who are drawn by being taught, hearing and learning the gospel will come to Christ, ie, they will answer the gospel call by coming to Christ..

The implication of you saying God gives (saves) then people come to Christ is that you have people saved before they have even been drawn by the gospel by being taught the gospel hearing and learning the gospel. YOu have people saved before they even have heard and learned the gospel, while in ingnorance of the gospel, while in unbelief and before they even come to Christ which they are in disobedience while not coming to Christ. So you have people saved apart from the gospel in unbelief while in disobedience/sin........which is not possible at all.

Again the ones that God giveth (the saved) is a group and not certain indivuduals chosen randomly and uncondtionally. Those that will answer the gospel call (come to Christ) become part of that foreknown group that God giveth.