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Replacement Theology

mdo757 said:
  • Have you given any thought to the word "Zion?"
Revelation 16:16
Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon (or Mount of the congregation Zion.)

Yes, I have given great thought to the word, "Zion." In fact, I given enough thought to the word to know what "Armageddon" actually means and the term stands for "Har Megido," the "Mount of Megiddo." It has nothing to do with "Zion" in that "Zion" was in southern Israel, in Judah, and was used to describe Judah, Jerusalem the city of David, and the Temple (the Daughter of Zion where the Mount of the congregation Zion is actually located). Megiddo was in Israel (the ten tribes in the northern section) and was the scene of many battles.

In fact, it is assumed that the Mount of Megiddo is where Elijah and the false prophets of Baal faced off - with Elijah (with God's help) won the face off.

1. Components of the Name: The noun Armageddon, written in Greek as Harmagedon, designates the place where the forces of evil gather to fight the Lord. The text states that it is a Hebrew name. Hence, most interpreters find in the name the combination of two Hebrew words. The first is har, which in Hebrew means "mountain, mount." But the second part of the word, magedon, is the bone of contention. Is there a Hebrew word that corresponds to the Greek spelling?

2. Mount of Megiddo: The traditional solution has been to find in the term magedon a reference to the ancient city of Megiddo in Israel. The name of that city is spelled in the Greek translation of the Old Testament as Mageddo (Joshua 17:11) or as Magedon (2 Chron. 35:22), the same spelling we find in Revelation 16:16. The same spelling would support this interpretation. The problem is that we do not find in the Old Testament the noun Megiddo preceded by the term har ("mountain"). There is no such place as Har-Magedon.

Some have attempted to partially solve the problem suggesting that "mountain" refers to the mountain that was in front of the city of Megiddo, namely, Mount Carmel. That was the mountain on which Elijah confronted the prophets of Baal and the Lord revealed Himself as the true object of worship. In context that would mean that Armageddon is Satan's last attempt to become the sole object of worship on Planet Earth. That function of the name nicely fits the message of Revelation, but the explanation of the name itself is far from certain.

3. Mount of Assembly: The other main possibility is to find in Harmagedon a reference to Isaiah 14:13, where we find the Hebrew phrase har moced, usually rendered "mount of assembly." The main problem here is again a linguistic one. The g of magedon is absent from moced, as well as the ending on. The vowels are not exactly the same, but that is not a major problem, because the Hebrew script did not have vowels. The g is not a major problem.


The Battle Over "Armageddon" - ÃÂngel Manuel Rodríguez

"A careful study of "the Revelation of Jesus Christ" shows that conservative Christianity's massive God-is-behind-modern-Israel theology is not true. Revelation's focus is not on "Israel after the flesh" (Israel One), but on "the Israel of God" (Israel Two) composed of both Jews and non-Jews (including Arabs), who are centered in Jesus Christ."

Israel and Armageddon - Will God defend the Middle East Jews during Earth's last battle? - by Steve Wohlberg (a "Jew" BTW)
 
RND said:
mdo757 said:
  • Have you given any thought to the word "Zion?"
Revelation 16:16
Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon (or Mount of the congregation Zion.)

Since there is no such word or no such place as Armageddon, it would be logical to assume that the word is misspelled. Migeddo is a valley, and there is no mountain called Migeddo. :twocents
 
mdo757 said:
Since there is no such word or no such place as Armageddon, it would be logical to assume that the word is misspelled. Migeddo is a valley, and there is no mountain called Migeddo. :twocents

Then you'd agree that "Zion" is not Armageddon, i.e as you has stated earlier Armageddon or Mount of the congregation Zion?
 
RND said:
mdo757 said:
Since there is no such word or no such place as Armageddon, it would be logical to assume that the word is misspelled. Migeddo is a valley, and there is no mountain called Migeddo. :twocents

Then you'd agree that "Zion" is not Armageddon, i.e as you has stated earlier Armageddon or Mount of the congregation Zion?
I am absolutely certain that it should have been (Mount of the Assembly or Congregation Zion.) I see no other alternative.
 
mdo757 said:
I am absolutely certain that it should have been (Mount of the Assembly or Congregation Zion.) I see no other alternative.

Then how is my understanding that "Har Megiddo" is referring to a mountain in Megiddo wrong and your usage as a Mount of the Assembly or Congregation Zion is right?

Zion is Jerusalem and the Mount of the Temple is there, not in Megiddo.
 
RND said:
mdo757 said:
I am absolutely certain that it should have been (Mount of the Assembly or Congregation Zion.) I see no other alternative.

Then how is my understanding that "Har Megiddo" is referring to a mountain in Megiddo wrong and your usage as a Mount of the Assembly or Congregation Zion is right?

Zion is Jerusalem and the Mount of the Temple is there, not in Megiddo.
Har means mountain, and there has never been a mountain called Megiddo. Megiddo is a valley! The word does not exist in any ancient document.
 
Armageddon = of Hebrew origin (2022 and Mgiddown 4023); Armageddon (or Har-Meggiddon), a symbolic name:--Armageddon.

2022 = har = mount = a shortened form of 'harar' (2042); a mountain or range of hills (sometimes used figuratively):--hill (country), mount(-ain), X promotion.

4023 = Mgiddown = (Zech. ''abdan' (12) or Mgiddow {meg-id-do'}; from 'gadad' (1413); rendezvous; Megiddon or Megiddo, a place in Palestine:--Megiddo, Megiddon.
 
RND said:
Armageddon = of Hebrew origin (2022 and Mgiddown 4023); Armageddon (or Har-Meggiddon), a symbolic name:--Armageddon.

2022 = har = mount = a shortened form of 'harar' (2042); a mountain or range of hills (sometimes used figuratively):--hill (country), mount(-ain), X promotion.

4023 = Mgiddown = (Zech. ''abdan' (12) or Mgiddow {meg-id-do'}; from 'gadad' (1413); rendezvous; Megiddon or Megiddo, a place in Palestine:--Megiddo, Megiddon.
We are talking about a MOUNTAIN called MEGIDDO. There is no such place.
 
mdo757 said:
RND said:
mdo757 said:
I am absolutely certain that it should have been (Mount of the Assembly or Congregation Zion.) I see no other alternative.

Then how is my understanding that "Har Megiddo" is referring to a mountain in Megiddo wrong and your usage as a Mount of the Assembly or Congregation Zion is right?

Zion is Jerusalem and the Mount of the Temple is there, not in Megiddo.
Har means mountain, and there has never been a mountain called Megiddo. Megiddo is a valley! The word does not exist in any ancient document.

Many scholars see this as a reference to what was done on Mount Carmel in which Elijah defeated the prophets of Baal with the fire of God. BTW, Megiddo is not just a valley but it is a "mount." Tel Megiddo is a National Park in Israel and a World Heritage Site. It is a "mount."
 
RND said:
mdo757 said:
We are talking about a MOUNTAIN called MEGIDDO. There is no such place.

It's a "symbolic" reference.
  • That is true that it is parabolic with a literal application.
Revelation 16:16
Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon (or Mount of the congregation Zion.)
 
mdo757 said:
  • That is true that it is parabolic with a literal application.
Revelation 16:16
Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon (or Mount of the congregation Zion.)

Let's try this, if the Mount of the congregation Zion is in the city of David, Jerusalem, then how do you associate it with Megiddo? :confused
 
RND said:
mdo757 said:
  • That is true that it is parabolic with a literal application.
Revelation 16:16
Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon (or Mount of the congregation Zion.)

Let's try this, if the Mount of the congregation Zion is in the city of David, Jerusalem, then how do you associate it with Megiddo? :confused
You misunderstood me. Megiddo valley and Harmegeddon have nothing to do with each other, because Harmegeddon is a misspelled word. Harmegeddon should have read: Mount of the congregation Zion.
 
mdo757 said:
You misunderstood me. Megiddo valley and Harmegeddon have nothing to do with each other, because Harmegeddon is a misspelled word. Harmegeddon should have read: Mount of the congregation Zion.

Ah, I see. So the Strong's is wrong? How do you get Har Edah Siyyon out of Harmegeddon?
 
RND said:
mdo757 said:
You misunderstood me. Megiddo valley and Harmegeddon have nothing to do with each other, because Harmegeddon is a misspelled word. Harmegeddon should have read: Mount of the congregation Zion.

Ah, I see. So the Strong's is wrong? How do you get Har Edah Siyyon out of Harmegeddon?
Ar / ma / ged / don. Also: Har / ma / ged / on.
Har / edah / siyyon.
Har: Mount or Mountain.
Edah or Mowed: Assembly, Community or Congregation.
Siyyon: Zion.
 
mdo757 said:
RND said:
mdo757 said:
You misunderstood me. Megiddo valley and Harmegeddon have nothing to do with each other, because Harmegeddon is a misspelled word. Harmegeddon should have read: Mount of the congregation Zion.

Ah, I see. So the Strong's is wrong? How do you get Har Edah Siyyon out of Harmegeddon?
Ar / ma / ged / don. Also: Har / ma / ged / on.
Har / edah / siyyon.
Har: Mount or Mountain.
Edah or Mowed: Assembly, Community or Congregation.
Siyyon: Zion.

I understand where it derives and what it means. That wasn't what I was asking. How does one get Har Edah Siyyon out of Harmegeddon? '

This is the logical equivalent of using "shoe" to describe a "motor boat."

BTW, 'edah is used for the description of a "group or gathering in the form of a community" whereas "mow`ed" is used for a "specific gathering" and "appointed time, place and meeting." Usage means everything. The only time the people gathered in Jerusalem was for "an appointment, i.e. a fixed time or season" like the feasts and festivals (such as the day of Atonement).

Moving on we would first have to eliminate the the "congregation, mount" usages in Numbers 20:22 and 27 because these refer specifically to Mount Hor where Aaron died - that is in Edom, not Judah. This leaves 2 possibilities.

1) Psa 74:2 Remember thy congregation, [which] thou hast purchased of old; the rod of thine inheritance, [which] thou hast redeemed; this mount Zion, wherein thou hast dwelt.

This is a simple plea by David to remember the people God purchased, by Jesus Christ (the Rod) His inheritance, whom He redeemed  Mount Zion, where God dwelt.

2) Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Well, it can't be this usage because Isaiah is describing Satan through the imagery the king of Babylon.

So, that leaves us with Psalms 74:2 and 'edah here is simply used to describe a "group" of people, like describing a group of Canadians or Samoans. People. So, where does the "Mount of the Congregation" derive. Where is it born is scripture.

Keep in mind there are 404 verses in Revelation. 276 have either a direct or related link to the Torah and tanakh. That leaves 128 verses that have no relation to the Torah and tanakh. How then is Revelation 16:16 related to the Torah and tanakh?

mow`ed = or moled {mo-ade'}; or (feminine) moweadah (2 Chronicles 8:13) {mo-aw-daw'}; from 'ya`ad' (3259); properly, an appointment, i.e. a fixed time or season; specifically, a festival; conventionally a year; by implication, an assembly (as convened for a definite purpose); technically the congregation; by extension, the place of meeting; also a signal (as appointed beforehand):--appointed (sign, time), (place of, solemn) assembly, congregation, (set, solemn)
feast, (appointed, due) season, solemn(-ity), synogogue, (set) time (appointed).

`edah = feminine of '`ed' (5707) in the original sense of fixture; a stated assemblage (specifically, a concourse, or generally, a family or crowd):--assembly, company, congregation, multitude, people, swarm. Compare '`edah' (5713).
 
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