Rev 18 The fall of Babylon

[Shilohsfoal]

"francisdesales"

You are making a major exegetical error. You are taking a metaphor from two different books, by two different authors, and DEMANDING that they mean the same thing.

One verse is taken from the book of Mat which is said to be the words of Jesus Christ.
The other verse is taken from the Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him to show unto his servants.

The Jesus Christ of the book of Mathew is the same Jesus Christ in the book of Revelation and both testimonies are of Jesus Christ.

Luke 21;21-23
Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains;and let them which are in the midst of it depart out;and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
For these be the days of vengeance,that all things which are written may be forfilled.But woe unto them that are with child,and them that give suck,in those days.For there shall be great distress in the land,and wrath upon this people.

Just to make it short and sweet.Come out of her my people that ye be not partakers of her sins and recieve ye not of her plagues.

 

[Sinthesis]

Revelation 18:4 (New International Version)

4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

Why does he say this? He is obviously talking to Christians.

Yes ,Jesus is speaking to christians.He is telling them the same thing he told them in the gospels.Babylon the great is Jerusalem.Jesus is telling the christians in Judea to not be partakers of the sins that will be commited in Judea.And that they should flee..

Luke 21;21-23
Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains;and let them which are in the midst of it depart out;and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

In other words ,when those in Judea are given the mark of the beast,dont plan on taking any trips to Judea.At least not untill they are cast out of the kingdom.

I agree.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Rev 18;24
And in her was found the blood of prophets,and of saints,and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Mat 23;35
That upon you may come all the rightous blood shed upon the earth,from the blood of rightous Abel unto the blood of Zecharial son of Barachias,whom ye slew between the temple and the alter.


If Jerusalem is not Babylon then one of these verses must be wrong.
The only way both verses can be true is if Jerusalem is Babylon.
Now which of these verses do you say is wrong?

Neither one. We know that Babylon is that great city but the question is...what is the great city:

Thats right neither one of these verses are wrong.Jesus is telling you who shall be charged with ALL the rightous blood shed upon the earth.I wouldnt get to attached to Jerusalem if I were you.Though Jerusalem claims to be the city of God and says there is none other besides her ,being a christian ,you should know there is a new Jerusalem.

 

[Sinthesis]

Matthew speaks about hypocrisy of the Pharisees. Revelation speaks about the People who follow sin, noted as harlots, whores in the OT.

Jesus notes that the Pharisees were hypocrites, just as their "fathers", who said one thing and then slayed the prophets of God. Clearly, Revelation is not speaking the same way. John is NOT saying that "hypocrites" are slaying the Christians or the Apostles. Gentile Romans were. He is refering to the OT useage of the term, not to Christ's useage of the term.

Steven, James and even Paul might disagree with you. The hypocrites of apostate Israel were persecuting the early Church.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Great discriptions of the city Babylon given in the book of Revelation.
Rev 17;15
And he saith unto me,The waters which thou sawest,where the whore sitteth,are peoples,and multitudes,and nations,and tongues.

And below is the demodraphics of Israel as taken from an encyclopedia.

Israel has two official languages, Hebrew and Arabic.[2] Hebrew is the primary language of the state and spoken by the majority of the population. Arabic is spoken by the Arab minority and Jews who immigrated to Israel from Arab lands. Most Israelis can communicate reasonably well in English, as many television programs are in English and many schools begin to teach English in the early grades. As a country of immigrants, dozens of languages can be heard on the streets of Israel. A large influx of people from the former Soviet Union and Ethiopia have made Russian and Amharic widely spoken in Israel. Between 1990 and 1994, the immigration of Jews from the former Soviet Union increased Israel's population by twelve percent.[224] Over the last decade, immigration flows have also included significant numbers of workers from countries such as Romania, Thailand, China, and a number of countries in Africa and South America; gauging precise numbers is difficult because of the presence of "undocumented" immigrants, but estimates run in the region of 200,000.

 

[Sinthesis]

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

This was shocking to me but I finally realized....THIS IS NOT JERUSALEM BEING SPOKEN OF. Yes, Christ was crucified in Jerusalem, actually in the outskirts...beyond the gate, but this "great city" is not a literal location. For that reason it is referred to as "spiritually" being called "Sodom and Egypt." Which just means wickedness. Egypt is symbolic of the world, worldly lusts and desires and you know what Sodom is all about.....evil, wickedness. That wickedness is what crucified our Lord and is what will kill the witnesses. It is not a place, the great city is Satan's realm....evil.

Evil has a street?
There may be a path of evil, but I doubt the two witnesses travel down it.

 

[whirlwind]

Thats right neither one of these verses are wrong.Jesus is telling you who shall be charged with ALL the rightous blood shed upon the earth.I wouldnt get to attached to Jerusalem if I were you.Though Jerusalem claims to be the city of God and says there is none other besides her ,being a christian ,you should know there is a new Jerusalem.

At the beginning of Matthew 23 it is Christ speaking to..."the multitude and His disciples" about "The scribes and the Pharisees" which "sit in Moses' seat." The words, "Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees"....is repeated over and over. The name Jerusalem is not mentioned one time and then we see....23:35 "." That UPON YOU may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth.

The "you" all the blood shedding goes upon is not Jerusalem but is...the scribes and pharisees. And then He says....O Jerusalem, Jerusalem thou that killest the prophets.

I do know about the New Jerusalem.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Thats right neither one of these verses are wrong.Jesus is telling you who shall be charged with ALL the rightous blood shed upon the earth.I wouldnt get to attached to Jerusalem if I were you.Though Jerusalem claims to be the city of God and says there is none other besides her ,being a christian ,you should know there is a new Jerusalem.

At the beginning of Matthew 23 it is Christ speaking to..."the multitude and His disciples" about "The scribes and the Pharisees" which "sit in Moses' seat." The words, "Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees"....is repeated over and over. The name Jerusalem is not mentioned one time and then we see....23:35 "." That UPON YOU may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth.


The "you" all the blood shedding goes upon is not Jerusalem but is...the scribes and pharisees. And then He says....O Jerusalem, Jerusalem thou that killest the prophets.
I do know about the New Jerusalem.

So ,how much do you know about the people that dwell in Jerusalem today?
Have you heard any rabbis speaking lately?
Have you noticed how they shut up the kingdom of heaven to men?
How they wont enter themselves and they hinder those who are trying to enter?
Have you noticed how the rabbis in Israel today teach those in Judea that if they convert to christianity that they are a traitor to thier country and thier people?
Nothing new under the sun.

 

[whirlwind]

So ,how much do you know about the people that dwell in Jerusalem today?
Have you heard any rabbis speaking lately?
Have you noticed how they shut up the kingdom of heaven to men?
How they wont enter themselves and they hinder those who are trying to enter?
Have you noticed how the rabbis in Israel today teach those in Judea that if they convert to christianity that they are a traitor to thier country and thier people?
Nothing new under the sun.

I have heard of rabbis saying what you report, I have heard Baptist preachers teaching rapture, I have heard Catholic priests chanting, bowing to Mary and calling the pope Holy Father, I have heard TV evangelists scream rapture and pass the money, I have heard many teaching false doctrine. The people that listen are God's children, Christian and Jew, from all around the world...which is where the great city is. :yes

 

[whirlwind]

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

This was shocking to me but I finally realized....THIS IS NOT JERUSALEM BEING SPOKEN OF. Yes, Christ was crucified in Jerusalem, actually in the outskirts...beyond the gate, but this "great city" is not a literal location. For that reason it is referred to as "spiritually" being called "Sodom and Egypt." Which just means wickedness. Egypt is symbolic of the world, worldly lusts and desires and you know what Sodom is all about.....evil, wickedness. That wickedness is what crucified our Lord and is what will kill the witnesses. It is not a place, the great city is Satan's realm....evil.

Evil has a street?
There may be a path of evil, but I doubt the two witnesses travel down it.

The word "street" in the above scripture is actually a wide, open place. The witnesses (of which there are many) are confronted with Satan's deception...the deception of the fake christ. It isn't that they take part in evil but that they must withstand his lies. They/we will and some will be killed.

 

[francisdesales]

Jesus notes that the Pharisees were hypocrites, just as their "fathers", who said one thing and then slayed the prophets of God. Clearly, Revelation is not speaking the same way. John is NOT saying that "hypocrites" are slaying the Christians or the Apostles. Gentile Romans were. He is refering to the OT useage of the term, not to Christ's useage of the term.

Steven, James and even Paul might disagree with you. The hypocrites of apostate Israel were persecuting the early Church.

Not much when Revelation was written. Revelation was written in the late 90's, when Judaism was relegated to the synagogue and the two had by then gone their separate ways. You are refering to the period before the destruction of the Temple, when the Jews had a position of tacit acceptance and protection from Rome. The Romans were persecuting Christians at the turn of the century, not the Jews.

Be that as it may, "Bablyon" and "harlot" and "whore" is refering to OT symbolic useage, not NT. The OT uses these terms to refer to sin, not Pharisaical hypocrites.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

francisdesales

One verse is taken from the book of Mat which is said to be the words of Jesus Christ.
The other verse is taken from the Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him to show unto his servants.

Different authors use different metaphors... John and Matthew certainly can use words differently.

The Jesus Christ of the book of Mathew is the same Jesus Christ in the book of Revelation and both testimonies are of Jesus Christ.

The HUMAN author is allowed to utilize his own skills and literary genre and style to write God's inspired Word. Thus, metaphors can have different meanings in Scriptures, although we say God is the Author of the Scriptures.

Consider the Resurrection accounts. Are they identical? This relates one angel, another relates two angels... etc...

Testimonies, by nature, are different points of view of an experience. It is not surprising to see different authors utilize different means of expressing the theology they desire to focus on.

Luke 21;21-23
Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains;and let them which are in the midst of it depart out;and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
For these be the days of vengeance,that all things which are written may be forfilled.But woe unto them that are with child,and them that give *bleep*,in those days.For there shall be great distress in the land,and wrath upon this people.

Just to make it short and sweet.Come out of her my people that ye be not partakers of her sins and recieve ye not of her plagues.

Here, Christ is speaking about the fall of Jerusalem, which, to the Jews, would seem like the end of the world. This has nothing in common with Revelation, which was written well after the fall of Jerusalem.

Regards

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Be that as it may, "Bablyon" and "harlot" and "whore" is refering to OT symbolic useage, not NT. The OT uses these terms to refer to sin, not Pharisaical hypocrites.

Regards

Luke 21;12
But before all these,they shall lay thier hands on you,and persecute you,delivering you up to the synagogues,and into prisons,being brought before kings and rulers for my sake.

francisdesales
Are you sure you know what takes place in Judea before Jesus returns?
I mean they are not going to deliver Jesus's followers up to the synagogues to give them a pat on the back.

 

[Joe67]

What is this chapter talking about?

shad,

It is speaking of the same work of God to which Isaiah testified in Isaiah 24:21,22.

Joe

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Luke 21;21-23
Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains;and let them which are in the midst of it depart out;and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
For these be the days of vengeance,that all things which are written may be forfilled.But woe unto them that are with child,and them that give *bleep*,in those days.For there shall be great distress in the land,and wrath upon this people.

francisdesales

Perhaps you should reread the entire chapter.Jesus is speaking of the end.
As it is written in the verses above"all things which are written may be forfilled".That includes the wrath of God as it is written in the book of Revelation.I know alot of people claim that all things which are written have already come to pass but thats not the truth.Lets take a look at the next verse.

Luke 21;24
And that shall fall by the edge of the sword,and shall be lead away captive into all nations;and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the gentiles,untill the time of the gentiles be forfilled.

Rev 11;2
But the outer court which is without the temple leave out,and measure it not;for it is given unto the gentiles;and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Im quite sure this hasnt happened.

 

[Sinthesis]

Jesus notes that the Pharisees were hypocrites, just as their "fathers", who said one thing and then slayed the prophets of God. Clearly, Revelation is not speaking the same way. John is NOT saying that "hypocrites" are slaying the Christians or the Apostles. Gentile Romans were. He is refering to the OT useage of the term, not to Christ's useage of the term.

Steven, James and even Paul might disagree with you. The hypocrites of apostate Israel were persecuting the early Church.

Not much when Revelation was written. Revelation was written in the late 90's, when Judaism was relegated to the synagogue and the two had by then gone their separate ways. You are refering to the period before the destruction of the Temple, when the Jews had a position of tacit acceptance and protection from Rome. The Romans were persecuting Christians at the turn of the century, not the Jews.

Revelation was written in the early 60's. This is where we disagree, though you are correct that the Romans were persecuting Christians at the turn of the century.

Be that as it may, "Bablyon" and "harlot" and "whore" is refering to OT symbolic useage, not NT. The OT uses these terms to refer to sin, not Pharisaical hypocrites.
Regards

With an earlier date for revelation it makes perfect sense to equate the apostate Israel of the 1st century AD with the Kingdom of Judah God sentenced to destuction and captivity via Babylon.

 

[francisdesales]

Revelation was written in the early 60's. This is where we disagree, though you are correct that the Romans were persecuting Christians at the turn of the century.

I have seen the arguments for that, but I am not convinced. Most accept Nero as the "666/616" charecter and he had already died in the writing. There are a number of other hints that tell us it was written later, but this is outside of the topic subject.

With an earlier date for revelation it makes perfect sense to equate the apostate Israel of the 1st century AD with the Kingdom of Judah God sentenced to destuction and captivity via Babylon.

Perhaps. However, like I said before, Jerusalem was NEVER the ruler over the earth. Such writings are spiritual - it is sin and idolatry that rules over the kings of the earth, not Jerusalem.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

francisdesales

Perhaps you should reread the entire chapter.Jesus is speaking of the end.
As it is written in the verses above"all things which are written may be forfilled".That includes the wrath of God as it is written in the book of Revelation.I know alot of people claim that all things which are written have already come to pass but thats not the truth.Lets take a look at the next verse.

The "end" for Jews is the destruction of Jerusalem. They equate the "end of the world" with destruction of the Temple. Consider the writings of the first destruction.

Luke 21;24
And that shall fall by the edge of the sword,and shall be lead away captive into all nations;and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the gentiles,untill the time of the gentiles be forfilled.

Why does this HAVE to refer to our current time? Jerusalem was indeed trodden down by the Romans. The "time of the Gentiles be fulfilled" doesn't mean that the JEWS would take it over again, a la 1948...

It doesn't say that the Jews would re-inhabit Jerusalem after the "time of the Gentiles".

Rev 11;2
But the outer court which is without the temple leave out,and measure it not;for it is given unto the gentiles;and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Im quite sure this hasnt happened.

[/quote]

It happened in 70 AD.

The 3 1/2 year period refers back in time to the desecration of the Temple, related in Maccabees. This is the "abomination desolation", a time of immense suffering for the Jews. Any reference to "42 months" or "3.5 years" is refering to the time the Syrians desecrated the Temple with pig blood and statues for 3 1/2 years. Of course, the Romans completely DESTROYED the Temple in 70 AD - which again points to a post-70 AD writing.

Regards

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The 3 1/2 year period refers back in time to the desecration of the Temple, related in Maccabees. This is the "abomination desolation", a time of immense suffering for the Jews. Any reference to "42 months" or "3.5 years" is refering to the time the Syrians desecrated the Temple with pig blood and statues for 3 1/2 years. Of course, the Romans completely DESTROYED the Temple in 70 AD - which again points to a post-70 AD writing.

Regards

You seem quite confused.
The Syrians desecrated the temple of the jews before 164 bc.
Jesus didnt speak these words till about 30 ad.

Mt 24;15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,spoken of by Daniel the prophet,stand in the holy place,(whoso readeth,let him understand).

Would you like to explain why Jesus would be telling his followers to flee when they
see something that you claim happened more than 164 years before he was born?

 

[francisdesales]

The 3 1/2 year period refers back in time to the desecration of the Temple, related in Maccabees. This is the "abomination desolation", a time of immense suffering for the Jews. Any reference to "42 months" or "3.5 years" is refering to the time the Syrians desecrated the Temple with pig blood and statues for 3 1/2 years. Of course, the Romans completely DESTROYED the Temple in 70 AD - which again points to a post-70 AD writing.

You seem quite confused.
The Syrians desecrated the temple of the jews before 164 bc.
Jesus didnt speak these words till about 30 ad.

Would you like to explain why Jesus would be telling his followers to flee when they
see something that you claim happened more than 164 years before he was born?

The Abomination Desolation and all references to 3.5 years or 42 months calls to mind a past event that instills horrific memories for Jews. It would be akin to the Soviets speaking of the "Great Patriotic War". This brings to mind the horror and sacrifices made to a culture that lost some 50 million people in 3 years of warfare against a totalitarian and absolutely destructive culture. The Jews, hearing such references, would realize and recall those sacrifices of the Maccabees and those who rebeled against the Syrians, as well as the desecration of the Jewish temple. In addition, with its religious connotations, it would signal that God had utterly abandoned them, at least temporarily, with such a desolation.

Jesus was calling to mind these memories and stating that something WORSE was coming.

I would say that the DESTRUCTION of the Temple and the killing of millions of Jews exceeds the original Abomination Desolation, wouldn't you???

Regards