Rev 18 The fall of Babylon

[Shilohsfoal]

The 3 1/2 year period refers back in time to the desecration of the Temple, related in Maccabees. This is the "abomination desolation", a time of immense suffering for the Jews. Any reference to "42 months" or "3.5 years" is refering to the time the Syrians desecrated the Temple with pig blood and statues for 3 1/2 years. Of course, the Romans completely DESTROYED the Temple in 70 AD - which again points to a post-70 AD writing.

You seem quite confused.
The Syrians desecrated the temple of the jews before 164 bc.
Jesus didnt speak these words till about 30 ad.

Would you like to explain why Jesus would be telling his followers to flee when they
see something that you claim happened more than 164 years before he was born?

The Abomination Desolation and all references to 3.5 years or 42 months calls to mind a past event that instills horrific memories for Jews. It would be akin to the Soviets speaking of the "Great Patriotic War". This brings to mind the horror and sacrifices made to a culture that lost some 50 million people in 3 years of warfare against a totalitarian and absolutely destructive culture. The Jews, hearing such references, would realize and recall those sacrifices of the Maccabees and those who rebeled against the Syrians, as well as the desecration of the Jewish temple. In addition, with its religious connotations, it would signal that God had utterly abandoned them, at least temporarily, with such a desolation.

Jesus was calling to mind these memories and stating that something WORSE was coming.

I would say that the DESTRUCTION of the Temple and the killing of millions of Jews exceeds the original Abomination Desolation, wouldn't you???

Regards

The original Abomination of desolation?
Jesus was speaking of a future event,not an event of the past.
There is only one abomination of desolation and it hasnt taken place yet.

Daniel 11;32-33
And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt with flatteries;but the people who know thier god shall do exploits.
And they that understand amoung the people shall instruct many;yet they shall fall by the sword,and by flame,by captivity,and by spoil,many days.

According to scripture the jews who forsake the holy covenant are just fine with the abomination but the people who know thier God are killed for thier testimony.Obviously you have not studied the book of revelation concering this abomination so I cant see any way you could realize what this abomination is.
You cant say Jesus is telling his followers to flee Judea when they see the abomination of desolation and at the same time say the abomination of desolation was placed 194 years before Jesus told them.

Perhaps you shouldnt take the words of Josephus as it were the gospel.
Josephus obviously had no clue as to what he was interpreting.

 

[francisdesales]

The original Abomination of desolation?
Jesus was speaking of a future event,not an event of the past.
There is only one abomination of desolation and it hasnt taken place yet.

He was calling to mind a recent event of Jewish history that would resonate within them. He uses that mental picture to point to something even worse than that.

It would be like me as a Soviet to warn of America by reminding the Soviet comrades of the "Great Patriotic War" and that America would be even worse...

The Festival of Lights calls to mind the end of the original Abomination Desolation... This was an annual holiday (and remains so...), a holiday that calls to memory the great suffering and sacrifices of the Jews during this period of time in the face of tremendous odds (they time and again defeated the armies that were originally put together by the genius of Alexander the Great). Jesus and the Apostles celebrated this event - it was clearly part of something very important to them.

Furthermore, the event Christ predicted has already come to pass with the Temple's destruction. Can you tell me of a worse event in Jewish ancient history than the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD and its subsequent total raizing to the ground, with the exception of the West Wall? John relates an event that already has happened...

According to scripture the jews who forsake the holy covenant are just fine with the abomination but the people who know thier God are killed for thier testimony.Obviously you have not studied the book of revelation concering this abomination so I cant see any way you could realize what this abomination is.

It is obvious that we disagree, but don't tell me I haven't studied it. Just because you slavishly follow the silly "end time" predictions that have you running in circles to try to figure out when the world will end (when Christ said NO ONE knows when that will happen) doesn't mean I am impressed or that you are right.

As to your comments, of course the Jews who could care less about eating pork would be fine with the abomination! I see you haven't read Maccabees. People accepted the Hellenization of their religion with little more than a wimper until Judas Maccabees and his family refused to eat pork and stop circumcising his children against the orders of the Syrian leaders.

The Abomination would only resonate with those who held the Temple to a high standand and sign of God's presence on earth. Naturally, secular Jews would care less about the Temple or putting statues in it...

You cant say Jesus is telling his followers to flee Judea when they see the abomination of desolation and at the same time say the abomination of desolation was placed 194 years before Jesus told them.

You aint gettin it, are ya... :crazy

If you, a religious man, were warned about something, and I called to mind a HUGE abomination in your religious past, wouldn't that stir within you terror and fear of this impending warning??? Wouldn't it put a picture in your mind of a terrible suffering soon coming, akin to the trodding of the Gentiles in the Holy of Holies and spilling pig blood on the altar???

Perhaps you shouldnt take the words of Josephus as it were the gospel.
Josephus obviously had no clue as to what he was interpreting.

Huh? What does this cryptic comment mean? Plain language, please...

Regards

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Perhaps you shouldnt take the words of Josephus as it were the gospel.
Josephus obviously had no clue as to what he was interpreting.

Huh? What does this cryptic comment mean? Plain language, please...

Regards

Theres nothing cryptic about what I said. You believe a man who proclaims the temple of God is a building made with hands.You believe a man who had not the holy spirit.

Jesus was not calling to mind anything of the past.He was speaking of the future.

 

[Sinthesis]

Revelation was written in the early 60's. This is where we disagree, though you are correct that the Romans were persecuting Christians at the turn of the century.

I have seen the arguments for that, but I am not convinced. Most accept Nero as the "666/616" charecter and he had already died in the writing. There are a number of other hints that tell us it was written later, but this is outside of the topic subject.

Where do you get this?

With an earlier date for revelation it makes perfect sense to equate the apostate Israel of the 1st century AD with the Kingdom of Judah God sentenced to destuction and captivity via Babylon.

Perhaps. However, like I said before, Jerusalem was NEVER the ruler over the earth. Such writings are spiritual - it is sin and idolatry that rules over the kings of the earth, not Jerusalem.

Regards

Temple Jerusalem had given herself over to sin and idolatry by 70AD.

 

[francisdesales]

Theres nothing cryptic about what I said. You believe a man who proclaims the temple of God is a building made with hands.You believe a man who had not the holy spirit.

Excuse me, we were speaking of the Jerusalem Temple, not the Church. What tangeant have you gone off on??? Josephus was a historian, and he is useful as a witness to the destruction of the Temple. I am not undertaking to believe his religious background or his comments on religion.

Jesus was not calling to mind anything of the past.He was speaking of the future.

No kiddin!!!

I have said that in every single post... He uses the past to remind them of the terror of an upcoming event. If I were to say that something of the future is going to be like WW2, won't that resonate within you? Is this too difficult to understand?

Regards

 

[Shilohsfoal]

francisdesales"
Excuse me, we were speaking of the Jerusalem Temple, not the Church. What tangeant have you gone off on??? Josephus was a historian, and he is useful as a witness to the destruction of the Temple. I am not undertaking to believe his religious background or his comments on religion.

You and Josephus are talking about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
Jesus Daniel And Paul are not.If you have believed what Josephus said about the abomination of desolation then you have been decieved.The abomination of desolation that Daniel the prophet spoke of did not happen before 164 bc as you and Josephus claims.The abomination of desolation didnt happen in 70 ad as you claim.You have yet to learn what it is because you seem to not understand the book of revelation as it describes the abomination of desolation.

I have said that in every single post... He uses the past to remind them of the terror of an upcoming event. If I were to say that something of the future is going to be like WW2, won't that resonate within you? Is this too difficult to understand?

Jesus was never speaking of the past.Jesus was speaking of a future event.
He wasnt reminding them of the past.He is telling christians of events that take place before the day of the redemption of the purchased possession.

Luke 21;28
And when these things begin to come to pass,then look up,and lift up your heads;for your redemption draweth nigh.

Do you not know what the day of redemption is?

You may want to rethink what Josephus has taught you about the book of Daniel before all of the events written in Daniel comes to pass before you own eyes and you not understand them.Im not going to talk about this with you any longer because this is turning into an arguement.If you still wish to believe what Josephus has taught you then so be it.

 

[francisdesales]

You and Josephus are talking about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
Jesus Daniel And Paul are not.If you have believed what Josephus said about the abomination of desolation then you have been decieved.The abomination of desolation that Daniel the prophet spoke of did not happen before 164 bc as you and Josephus claims.

The Abomination of Desolation happened between June 167/168 BCE to December 164/165 BCE. It ends with the celebration of Hanukkah, the Festival of Lights. Three equivalent time frames, 42 months, 3.5 years, and 1260 days all point to that one incredibly difficult time in Jewish history. It is described in Dan 7 and Dan 12. It is described in 1 Mac 5, as well. Antiochus Epiphanes is even named, who profaned the Temple and installed a statue of Zeus.

Worse destruction than this came upon the Jews in 70 AD. The concept of 42 months, 3.5 years, etc, points to a time of persecution, a temporary time that Jewish Christians would understand. As it happened, Roman persecution, though often difficult, was usually temporary.

The abomination of desolation didnt happen in 70 ad as you claim.You have yet to learn what it is because you seem to not understand the book of revelation as it describes the abomination of desolation.

Whatever. Apparently, you think that John was writing to people of the 21st or LATER century, rather than people of HIS time. I think you have been reading too many books on the attempts to tie the "end times" to today. It is always a nice topic to sell books with, and there will always be people like you grabbing them up and trying to do what Christ said couldn't be done...

Jesus was never speaking of the past.Jesus was speaking of a future event.

Jesus never spoke of the past?

We're done...

Carry on with your bomb shelter...

 

[Vic C.]

I believe many students and scholars believe Daniel was referring to Antiochus who did desecrate the Temple as Joe commented. However, Jesus isn't referring to an event in His past here(Mat 24:15); He's referring to something in the future, possibly their future. This is why I believe this is in reference to the Jewish Revolt against Rome, which did last for 3 1/2 years.

There there's Paul, who may be referring to something in a much distant future, which is why I cannot dismiss some sort of near-far prophecy.

My understanding didn't come from Josephus either; it came from the inspired observations of a great mathematician and theologian by the name of Sir Isaac Newton.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

I believe many students and scholars believe Daniel was referring to Antiochus who did desecrate the Temple as Joe commented. However, Jesus isn't referring to an event in His past here(Mat 24:15); He's referring to something in the future, possibly their future. This is why I believe this is in reference to the Jewish Revolt against Rome, which did last for 3 1/2 years.

There there's Paul, who may be referring to something in a much distant future, which is why I cannot dismiss some sort of near-far prophecy.

My understanding didn't come from Josephus either; it came from the inspired observations of a great mathematician and theologian by the name of Sir Isaac Newton.

So what happened at the end of the 3 1/2 years?
Were the people deliverd and the dead raised at the end of the 3 1/2 years as the book of Daniel says?

 

[Vic C.]

So what happened at the end of the 3 1/2 years?
Were the people deliverd and the dead raised at the end of the 3 1/2 years as the book of Daniel says?

Hmm, I thought we were talking about Daniel 9... sorry.

I did say this though:

There there's Paul, who may be referring to something in a much distant future, which is why I cannot dismiss some sort of near-far prophecy

So I'm not at all dismissing any future prophetic events. I'm not preterist.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

"Vic C." I'm not preterist.

 

[Sinthesis]

You have yet to learn what it is because you seem to not understand the book of revelation as it describes the abomination of desolation.

How do you interpret the book of revelation as it describes the abomination of desolation?