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Revelation 13

th1b.taylor

Member
Revelation 13:1:
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.


Revelation 13:2:
And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.


Many have found this to be a Spiritual Metaphor for a modern day Roman Empire and I will not nor can I debate it being something else. We see that the sea is used to represent a multitude of people and using that example it is easy to see Satan´s man rising up to gain power. Some have been so bold as to proclaim this empire being composed of the countries of the European Union, I´m not at all certain of that. The Roman Empire consisted of nations from all of the known world and I tend to be more inclusive in my assessment of this reconstitution of the empire.


Revelation 13:3:
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.


It is wonderful, the method and the manner of God´s use of words. I have seen several interpretations of this one scripture and none of the convince me of their being the one explanation.


Revelation 13:4:
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?


It is important to remember, the Beast has just shone up on the radar and God has promised a peace that will be unparalleled for the first three and one half years, and this man will appear to be the author of that peace. Suddenly Satan and the Beast will be put up as God´s.


Revelation 13:5:
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


Revelation 13:6:
And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.


Revelation 13:7:
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


Revelation 13:8:
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Revelation 13:9:
If any man have an ear, let him hear.


Many take this to show that the Church is not raptured until the first three and a half years are completed and I, being Pretrib, do not argue with them. You see, this is one of those secondary issues and in no manor affects our mission as described in the Great Commission. (Matt. 28:18-20) It is my position that, much like in the Left Behind series, there will be Laymen, Deacons and even Pastors that were not committed, whole heartedly, and they will finally get it! Life for these later Christians will be pure persecution. All of the Lost will be out to slay them, along with the Two Witness´.


Revelation 13:10:
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


Revelation 13:11:
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.


Revelation 13:12:
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.


Revelation 13:13:
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,


Revelation 13:14:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


Revelation 13:15:
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


Revelation 13:16:
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:


Now enters the imitator of God. I take it that the world will see this one as the ultimate peace giver and will throw open their arms to welcome him into their, very, hearts. I find it important to note, here, that the Mark is issued and nowhere before the Beasts take over is it given. Many fear the Chip that, today, is being injected into our animals and the children of the Upper Class, all over the world. All of the Banks are calling for this chip to be given to all of us, but this is not the mark. (My opinion.) There is reason to fear this chip but for the time being, at least, the Mark of the Beast is the least of the reasons.


All of our Bank Records, Criminal Records and Medical Records are accessed through this chip and still, these are not as dangerous as the primary reason to distrust the chip. These chips are read because they have an RF Signal. RF is short for Radio Frequency. Therefore the chip is locatable 365 days a year, 24/7. You cannot hide without cutting the chip out of your body.


Revelation 13:17:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


Revelation 13:18:
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


Here we find an interesting point, every Bar Code, I´m instructed, begins with a six, ends with a six and directly in the middle, is a six. And I have no firm ground to make a statement about such but it is alarming to those that are close to the Church but have not committed.
 
Many take this to show that the Church is not raptured until the first three and a half years are completed and I, being Pretrib, do not argue with them. You see, this is one of those secondary issues and in no manor affects our mission as described in the Great Commission. (Matt. 28:18-20) It is my position that, much like in the Left Behind series, there will be Laymen, Deacons and even Pastors that were not committed, whole heartedly, and they will finally get it! Life for these later Christians will be pure persecution. All of the Lost will be out to slay them, along with the Two Witness´.

I am prewrath but I have to agree with you here. As Daniel 11 says...

34 During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere. 35 And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.

Blessings,
Dee
 
34 During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere. 35 And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.

Daniel 11:29-35 is specifically about the reign of terror Antichus IV Epiphanes brought down on the Jews and Jerusalem, as I illustrated in this thread:

http://www.christianforums.net/f20/lukes-eschatology-39651/

And this post:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=39651&p=594228&viewfull=1#post594228
 
Revelation 13:18:
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Nero Caesar fits the gematria code number "666." Using this code, his name would be rendered as "NRWN QSR." (NRWN QSR). The number values are:

  • N = 50
  • R = 200
  • W = 6
  • N = 50
  • Q = 100
  • S = 60
  • R = 200
which, when added together, equals 666.


[FONT=ARIAL,HELVETICA,SANS-SERIF]Of some related interest is the fact that if Nero’s name is written without the final "n" (i.e., the way it would occur to a Gentile to spell it in Hebrew), it yields the number 616 — which is exactly the variant reading in a few New Testament manuscripts. The most reasonable explanation for this variant is that it arose from the confusion over the final "n".[/FONT]

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/beast.html

If the mystery of "666" can be so easily explained without appeals to conspiracies and modern technology, what else can be understood about this chapter that - likewise - doesn't require such appeals to the irrational and arcane? :chin
 
If the mystery of "666" can be so easily explained without appeals to conspiracies and modern technology, what else can be understood about this chapter that - likewise - doesn't require such appeals to the irrational and arcane? :chin

the gemetria. they dont know that. its not in the "Spirit" to look into God given means of understand his own name or code given to them via oral traditions that predate the death of our LORD.

and even POINT to the NAME of the lord.

cant have that. d4 this is what i meant by knowing the oral traditions and hebraic thoughts. the apostles knew.
 
I hope you guys understand that those who are not preterists have good and sound reasons for believing that many prophecies have yet to be fullfilled.

It just so happens that this is one of the few chrisitan forums where the preterist happen to the be some of the loudest and most obnoxious I have ever seen. Patting each other on the back and "over talking" those who disagree doesn't make your arguements stronger. Calling people names or referring to those who don't agree with you pov's, "irrational" and "arcane" is character revealing.

But please remember, that for each of us that comments on this board, there many be dozens who never do...they may not even be members, just visitors checking in to learn and get a different perspective on scriptures.

Please let us try to be civil in our disagreements. I am glad some of you are scholarly....you're pride is evident. Perhaps instead of copying/pasting from your "manifestos" to show us how smart you are, you can use discernment to identify the root causes of "confusion" and perhaps tackle those instead of blasting those who don't understand how you've come to your superior conclusions.

If your purpose is for earnest study and discussion then this should not be a big deal...if your purpose is to ridicule and mock....then some preterists on this forum should take a bow.

Blessings,
Dee
 
I hope you guys understand that those who are not preterists have good and sound reasons for believing that many prophecies have yet to be fullfilled.

It just so happens that this is one of the few chrisitan forums where the preterist happen to the be some of the loudest and most obnoxious I have ever seen. Patting each other on the back and "over talking" those who disagree doesn't make your arguements stronger. Calling people names or referring to those who don't agree with you pov's, "irrational" and "arcane" is character revealing.

But please remember, that for each of us that comments on this board, there many be dozens who never do...they may not even be members, just visitors checking in to learn and get a different perspective on scriptures.

Please let us try to be civil in our disagreements. I am glad some of you are scholarly....you're pride is evident. Perhaps instead of copying/pasting from your "manifestos" to show us how smart you are, you can use discernment to identify the root causes of "confusion" and perhaps tackle those instead of blasting those who don't understand how you've come to your superior conclusions.

If your purpose is for earnest study and discussion then this should not be a big deal...if your purpose is to ridicule and mock....then some preterists on this forum should take a bow.

Blessings,
Dee
When you lack rational responses adopt poorly veiled personal attacks-- hey now thats a new tactic.:thumbsup
 
pm me on this matter and truth be told your form eschatology didnt exist prior to 1800. it wasnt taught in any of the mainline churches.

i understand why you say that as i was there,but in my reasearch i have found what hitch et all say has a lot of truth.

the df does teach almost another gospel.
 
When you lack rational responses adopt poorly veiled personal attacks-- hey now thats a new tactic.:thumbsup

No...not poorly veiled. Grow up...was that clearer.

Being human I can be just as nasty as you...but what would that profit the study of the Word of God. How does that help our testimony to the hundreds of non christians who come to this forum for information. We don't have to nasty even when we disagree. That's an adult concept...I know it may be hard for some to comprehend.

Blessings,
Dee
 
Calling people names or referring to those who don't agree with you pov's, "irrational" and "arcane" is character revealing.

I didn't call anyone names. I didn't call anyone "irrational and arcane."

My point was to suggest that Revelation 13 can be understood without appeals to irrational and arcane "evidence" and "reasoning." (And it's clear that such appeals are all over the web, not just this site.) I think I demonstrated that with the link I provided.

I'm sorry if you took offense. It wasn't directed at you or any other person, rather it was directed at a mindset that refuses to see these things as the apostles would have. (But then, that is nothing new given the history of Dispensationalism in this country.)
 
D4Christ,
Your opinion of this being a site where preterism shouts the loudest is only one opinion brought forth from a futurist assumption of eschatology.
You are not correct.
This site has sequestered "preterism" as a subcategory, whereas the last day madness in whatever form takes its place in the so-called "creed friendly" end times major category.
I do not complain though. There are still some sites that ban full preterism bc they are afraid of the truth & reality imo, & afraid that the creeds just might not be canon, like they wished.

Yet, there are other Christian forums where futurism is king but preterism is tolerated AND many more who call themselves full preterists have theology degrees & seminary schooling are making convincing strides in End times prophecies.

They have caused many to stop with their literal fictional view of end times posting.
 
I'm sorry if you took offense. It wasn't directed at you or any other person, rather it was directed at a mindset that refuses to see these things as the apostles would have. (But then, that is nothing new given the history of Dispensationalism in this country.)

Apology accepted. I understand your passion...I am not one though to try to quiet those with different opinions. I have learned a lot over the years from those who challenged what "I thought I knew." I love to dig for the Truth. But as I suggested above, this info is so vast that taking a point-by-point approach is easier to discuss than trying to cover the history of a subject in one posting.

After digging I still may not agree...but that's okay too.

Blessings,
Dee
 
I must ask again: what evidence and which view makes the most sense in light of these words?

{1} The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, {2} who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. {3} Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:1-3 (NASB)

{6} And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. {7} "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book." Revelation 22:6-7 (NASB)

{10} And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)

{12} "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Revelation 22:12 (NASB)

{20} He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:20 (NASB)


If your end-time beliefs prevent you from seeing the events of Revelation in the light of these words, might I suggest getting some new end-time beliefs.


For what it's worth.
 
I understand your passion...

I am passionate about getting to the truth of these things, but the irony is that one has to approach such study dispassionately. People can't have any "sacred cows" or doctrinal blinders on when they approach this material. I'm not looking to defend a given doctrine. I am simply trying to get people to see what the whole Word - and even history - has to say about these things.

I don't really care if people agree with me, but when these issues come up, I feel compelled - in the interest of the "whole truth" - to present facts others may not have considered. Hopefully then, instead of people being swayed by one argument or another, they will actually find the fire within them to search the Word as the Bereans did.

That is why, Dee, I have posted as I have to you in several threads, taking a great deal of time to present the evidence as I have found it. You may not agree with it, but you will never be able to look at your own beliefs the same way again without questioning them. That - in my opinion - is a good thing.
 
D4Christ,
Your opinion of this being a site where preterism shouts the loudest is only one opinion brought forth from a futurist assumption of eschatology.

Lehigh, my opinon was formed from the nasty comments made towards my pov.
I really don't care what other people believe....each person must follow their conscious. Some of the best discussions I have ever had on forums involved those with vastly differening opinions from me. I am not intimidated with those who think differently. We have all have a right to some degree to state what we believe in.

Why can't it be done civilly? I can't be blammed because you have experienced other intolerant people who don't like to give preterist a voice.

Blessings,
Dee
 
No...not poorly veiled. Grow up...was that clearer.

Being human I can be just as nasty as you...but what would that profit the study of the Word of God. How does that help our testimony to the hundreds of non christians who come to this forum for information. We don't have to nasty even when we disagree. That's an adult concept...I know it may be hard for some to comprehend.

Blessings,
Dee
Now , now was that civil?
 
I must ask again: what evidence and which view makes the most sense in light of these words?

These words.....

2 Peter 3
3 Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires. 4 They will say, “What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.â€
5 They deliberately forget that God made the heavens by the word of his command, and he brought the earth out from the water and surrounded it with water. 6 Then he used the water to destroy the ancient world with a mighty flood. 7 And by the same word, the present heavens and earth have been stored up for fire. They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed. 8But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day. 9 The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.

Btw...my studies never came from a doctrinal pov. I didn't know half of these beliefs existed.

What I would like to see from a preterist is a quoted prophecy from scriptures and a collaborated piece of historical evidence that shows each and evey point of that prophecy was fulfilled. I don't think thats asking too much.

Blessings,
Dee
 
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