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Revelation 13

D4Christ said:
These words.....

2 Peter 3


Btw...my studies never came from a doctrinal pov. I didn't know half of these beliefs existed.

What I would like to see from a preterist is a quoted prophecy from scriptures and a collaborated piece of historical evidence that shows each and evey point of that prophecy was fulfilled. I don't think thats asking too much.

Blessings,
Dee
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Owen wrote about it 400 years ago ,look it up.
 
D4Christ said:
Coming from me....Absolutely!:yes

Now in the words of Rodney King....can we just all get along?:D

Blessings,
Dee
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When you can present scriptural & historical rationale for your opinions.

But mostly you have only been the 1st to support the fictional, man-made doctrines which is evident from post 1 here.

When considering what others have brought forth with proofs, "prewrath" doctrine makes no sense. What's prewrath?

I can't stand for observers to the site to think there aren't realists in Christianity.

They should see that we ALL aren't taken in by deluded fiction of Biblical prophecies.

You should look at some preterist teaching & realize that we hear your opinion but your opinion will be challenged.

You think it rude to challenge a blind, uneducated opinion? I think it rude to ignore others opinions altogether without stating why- just saying they react rudely to your own.
Not only rude, but hypocritical. Thank you.
 
Lehigh3 said:
When you can present scriptural & historical rationale for your opinions.

But mostly you have only been the 1st to support the fictional, man-made doctrines which is evident from post 1 here.

When considering what others have brought forth with proofs, "prewrath" doctrine makes no sense. What's prewrath?

I can't stand for observers to the site to think there aren't realists in Christianity.

They should see that we ALL aren't taken in by deluded fiction of Biblical prophecies.

You should look at some preterist teaching & realize that we hear your opinion but your opinion will be challenged.

You think it rude to challenge a blind, uneducated opinion? I think it rude to ignore others opinions altogether without stating why- just saying they react rudely to your own.
Not only rude, but hypocritical. Thank you.
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Wow Lehigh...didn't know what I have posted was blind and uneducated...thanks! I never knew that responding to other's post with my own info backed with scriptures was hypocritcal. I don't post responses without stating where my disagreements lie...and you'll be hard pressed to prove I've done this.

Thank you for letting me know how things are run around here. If you're not a preterist, not only will your opinons be challenged, but your state of mind too.

No worries....you and I don't even need to go there anymore.

Thanks but no thanks..
Dee
 
if one were to take that day unto the lord thing as that literal in that idea of yom in all cases.

then god took seven thousand years to make the earth? hmm i hope you arent a young eearth creationist. jewish traditional suggest that it was a literal day.

context tells you often.
 
From post#1
Here we find an interesting point, every Bar Code, I´m instructed, begins with a six, ends with a six and directly in the middle, is a six. And I have no firm ground to make a statement about such but it is alarming to those that are close to the Church but have not committed.
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How is it that the 666 says it is the # of a man - but you take it that you are "instructed" that it's a bar code or something in the future?

Do you realize how superstitious that sounds?

The # of the man in Hebrew gematria was & is Neron Caesar. And that wild beast is dead.(and won't be reincarnated in a revived roman empire either)

Dispensationalism is a burden to the faith.





 
D4Christ said:
These words.....

2 Peter 3
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Interesting. Then how do you reconcile Peter's comments in 2 Peter 3 with his comments in 1 Peter 4:

{7} The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)

Oh, and it seems that in quoting the passage from 2 Peter 3, you might have missed something:

{13} But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. {14} Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, {15} and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 2 Peter 3:13-15 (NASB)

(Peter wasn't writing that to us 2,000 years later.)

{18} Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18 (NASB)

{28} Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 1 John 2:28 (NASB)

{7} For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. 2 John 1:7 (NASB)

(John wasn't writing that to us 2,000 years later.)

{17} But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, {18} that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts." {19} These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit. Jude 1:17-19 (NASB)

(Jude wasn't writing this to us living 2,000 years later.)

{7} Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. {8} You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. {9} Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door. James 5:7-9 (NASB)

(James didn't write that to us 2,000 years later.)

{1} God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, {2} in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. Hebrews 1:1-2 (NASB)

{24} and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, {25} not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. Hebrews 10:24-25 (NASB)

(Paul didn't write that to Gentile Americans living 2,000 years later.)

{5} This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. {6} For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, {7} and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, {8} dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. {9} These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, {10} when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 (NASB)

(Paul didn't write that to us living 2,000 years later. He was writing to those "under affliction" that they would be avenged. Wow...that sounds amazingly like this:

{6} "Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her. {7} "To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, 'I SIT as A QUEEN AND I AM NOT A WIDOW, and will never see mourning.' Revelation 18:6-7 (NASB) .)

As this post is already long, I'll only add that there are many, many more verses that point to the Day of the Lord coming soon for them. They were eagerly awaiting it. Jesus told them to expect it:

{21} "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. {22} "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. {23} "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:21-23 (NASB)

{27}"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. {28} "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:27-28 (NASB)

(Were any of us standing there???)

{64} Jesus *said to him, [Caiaphas] "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." Matthew 26:64 (NASB)

(Were any of us sitting with Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin in judgment on the day He was sentenced to death?)

The challenge from Revelation still stands: unless and until people can show me how their evidence and doctrines fit within the time frame the apostles laid out - as outlined above - said doctrines are nothing but hype and speculation, at best.
 
I suppose if you believe that every time "we" and "you" is used in scripture it becomes irrelevant to us generations later because we "present day people" were not the ones the apostles were writing to, then there is not much left to say, is there?

But what I don't understand, and am not seeking an explanation for, is how the bible is revelevant at all when scriptures that use "we" or "you" can't apply to us?

It's a rhetorical question....really.

Blessings,
Dee
 
it cant be as john 3 wouldnt apply.
nor can say that the idea of world that peter used isnt be as global as the flood.


context says so. the final judgment isnt here.
 
I suppose if you believe that every time "we" and "you" is used in scripture it becomes irrelevant to us generations later because we "present day people" were not the ones the apostles were writing to, then there is not much left to say, is there?
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It's not a matter of what you or I believe: it's what the Word "says."

Based on the passages I provided, (ignoring my comments for the moment) is there a rational basis to believe that anything they wrote regarding the "last days", Christ's coming, and "day of the Lord" was written to you?

If so, show me. If not, why do people insist in taking the apostles out of context?
 
is taking this for us in america out of context?
john 3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
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which world is in that context given your version of world?
 
jasoncran said:
is taking this for us in america out of context?
john 3


which world is in that context given your version of world?
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My , you couldnt find any thing in all of Revelation?

What is the context of R1;1 for us in America?
 
D4Christ said:
I suppose if you believe that every time "we" and "you" is used in scripture it becomes irrelevant to us generations later because we "present day people" were not the ones the apostles were writing to, then there is not much left to say, is there?

But what I don't understand, and am not seeking an explanation for, is how the bible is revelevant at all when scriptures that use "we" or "you" can't apply to us?

It's a rhetorical question....really.

Blessings,
Dee
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No ,its stupid question. Its a pathetic dodge and shrillness for shrillness sake.

But its all ya got :)

On second thought

It's a moronic question....really.

And you carry on about proper discourse ,tsk tsk.
 
Stormcrow said:
Of course this applies to anyone who needs Christ's salvation down through the ages. That should go without saying.
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then lets look at the greek word and compare with the judgment of peter in context in 2 peter.

john 3:16 note kosmon
http://interlinearbible.org/john/3-16.htm

kosmon
http://concordances.org/greek/2889.htm

and 2 peter 3:10
http://biblos.com/2_peter/3-10.htm
note the word ge

http://concordances.org/greek/1093.htm
2 peter 3:13

http://biblos.com/2_peter/3-13.htm

note the word gen.

http://biblos.com/2_peter/3-13.htm

so when did the world mealt and be changed remember the context hear.

i will post the verse so that you cant say its spiritual as god promised not to flood to whole earth.

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
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so we shoudnt also grow in grace as he is only talking to them?
 
Hitch said:
My , you couldnt find any thing in all of Revelation?

What is the context of R1;1 for us in America?
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stormcrow believes that jesus wont judge man again and theres no final judgment for all men on the earth.

yet peter's word for world is land and in context that alludes to the global flood.

if the original context in the listed verse is the whole earth being done away and new coming in then what has he to say to us now?

death isnt done away with , nor has tears been wiped away.
 
Stormcrow said:
It's not a matter of what you or I believe: it's what the Word "says."

Based on the passages I provided, (ignoring my comments for the moment) is there a rational basis to believe that anything they wrote regarding the "last days", Christ's coming, and "day of the Lord" was written to you?

If so, show me. If not, why do people insist in taking the apostles out of context?
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I believe scriptures were written for the Church founded by Christ. I personally cannot agree with the fact that every letter written for the church back then only applied to the church back then. I no more believe this than the apostles thought that the scriptures about Adam, Eve, Noah and Abraham applied only to those alive when those people were alive (and thousands of years separated those generations too) .

Of course there are instances where the apostles are speaking about direct circumstances that the church of their day faced. But the Blessed Hope, how to live righteously, how we should behave, messages given to the church about the end of time....I believe that they still apply to the church today.

Show you...I don't think its possible to show someone, who thinks the DOTL already happened, any other pov. If 2 Peter 3 says;

10 But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.

11 Since everything around us is going to be destroyed like this, what holy and godly lives you should live, 12 looking forward to the day of God and hurrying it along. On that day, he will set the heavens on fire, and the elements will melt away in the flames. 13 But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, a world filled with God’s righteousness. 14 And so, dear friends, while you are waiting for these things to happen, make every effort to be found living peaceful lives that are pure and blameless in his sight.
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I definitely won't criticize you for your opinon. But I don't think its possible to have a productive conversation with someone who is of the staunch opinon that this event quoted above has already taken place. I don't think our earth is any newer and our heavens any different than they were back in Christ time. And nothing short of scientific proof and historic records will convince me othewise.

Blessings,
Dee
 
I definitely won't criticize you for your opinon. But I don't think its possible to have a productive conversation with someone who is of the staunch opinon that this event quoted above has already taken place. I don't think our earth is any newer and our heavens any different than they were back in Christ time. And nothing short of scientific proof and historic records will convince me othewise.

LOL Well you wont find the resurrection there. But so what? You dont seem to think Christ did much to change things.
 
jasoncran said:
stormcrow believes that jesus wont judge man again and theres no final judgment for all men on the earth.

yet peter's word for world is land and in context that alludes to the global flood.
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I think your taking that point for beyond its application. Certainly the dissolution of the Old Covenant , has global effect, and is Scripturally called the' end of the world', without any of the action taking place far from Jerusalem. And the connotation of the 'last Adam' is at least in the inauguration of the NH&E. Neither of these take any support from a time/world ending .
if the original context in the listed verse is the whole earth being done away and new coming in then what has he to say to us now?

death isnt done away with , nor has tears been wiped away.
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Death is over come as the believer already has eternal life. You know Jesus said the believer would never die, and these facts must be part of the consideration against the blanket statement above. This is no less true because we wait for death's absolute destruction on the last day.
 
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