Revelations 11:3-4

[Ryan]

"And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth."


My intention is not to try and figure out who the Two Witnesses are, of which I have my opinion(s). But solely to provoke thought about whether we will identify them when the time comes?

"Stand before the Lord of the earth" implies they stood directly with God, and would have his testimony and teachings and meanings at their disposal to teach amongst the world. Now we know believers in Jesus have many different theologies, doctrines, etc that don't necessarily fit between denomination to denomination. I would assume, these witnessed will have the purest, most direct Word's of God ever spoken since Jesus's time on earth. So my question is this: Will we accept their testimony, even if it doesn't conform to any of our long held belief's and theologies? Or will people count them up as being false witnesses, based on long held erroneous belief's and doctrines? I belief when the time comes, they will uphold the Word of God, and we, myself included will have to re-think some certain things that we have been taught, no matter how small or how large it is.

 

[farouk]

"And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth."


My intention is not to try and figure out who the Two Witnesses are, of which I have my opinion(s). But solely to provoke thought about whether we will identify them when the time comes?

"Stand before the Lord of the earth" implies they stood directly with God, and would have his testimony and teachings and meanings at their disposal to teach amongst the world. Now we know believers in Jesus have many different theologies, doctrines, etc that don't necessarily fit between denomination to denomination. I would assume, these witnessed will have the purest, most direct Word's of God ever spoken since Jesus's time on earth. So my question is this: Will we accept their testimony, even if it doesn't conform to any of our long held belief's and theologies? Or will people count them up as being false witnesses, based on long held erroneous belief's and doctrines? I belief when the time comes, they will uphold the Word of God, and we, myself included will have to re-think some certain things that we have been taught, no matter how small or how large it is.

R: Hi. I think your question implies that there will be no Rapture and that the church will be around when these events come to pass, if my assumption is correct.

 

[Butch5]

"And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth."


My intention is not to try and figure out who the Two Witnesses are, of which I have my opinion(s). But solely to provoke thought about whether we will identify them when the time comes?

"Stand before the Lord of the earth" implies they stood directly with God, and would have his testimony and teachings and meanings at their disposal to teach amongst the world. Now we know believers in Jesus have many different theologies, doctrines, etc that don't necessarily fit between denomination to denomination. I would assume, these witnessed will have the purest, most direct Word's of God ever spoken since Jesus's time on earth. So my question is this: Will we accept their testimony, even if it doesn't conform to any of our long held belief's and theologies? Or will people count them up as being false witnesses, based on long held erroneous belief's and doctrines? I belief when the time comes, they will uphold the Word of God, and we, myself included will have to re-think some certain things that we have been taught, no matter how small or how large it is.

Hi Ryan,

I believe the two witnesses will be Isaiah and the apostle John. And yes, I believe many will reject their words.

 

[Ryan]

R: Hi. I think your question implies that there will be no Rapture and that the church will be around when these events come to pass, if my assumption is correct.

Yes, I think maybe this discussion could quickly turn into arguments about pre-mid-post. There would have to be a certain amount of personal thoughts about the rapture, and when or if it will occur, in order to having my own original questions answered to solicit any type of further thought. Hope that was clear?

 

[farouk]

Yes, I think maybe this discussion could quickly turn into arguments about pre-mid-post. There would have to be a certain amount of personal thoughts about the rapture, and when or if it will occur, in order to having my own original questions to solicit any type of further thought. Hope that was clear?

R: Thanks for clarifying. I noticed your use of 'we', you see.

(I like what is sometimes said: 'All Scripture is for us; all Scripture is not about us.')

 

[Ryan]

Hi Ryan,

I believe the two witnesses will be Isaiah and the apostle John. And yes, I believe many will reject their words.

I guess my question would be if it would be believers who will reject their words based on their theologies, doctrines, etc?

 

[Ryan]

R: Thanks for clarifying. I noticed your use of 'we', you see.

(I like what is sometimes said: 'All Scripture is for us; all Scripture is not about us.')

I noticed that as well, and didn't even give a second thought to that. That is what I mean though. Just on the subject on the rapture, how many different thoughts are there? These witnesses will preach with absolute clarity and perfection the testimony of Jesus, and there will be no room for arguing with them. What they say, pretty much goes.

 

[farouk]

I noticed that as well, and didn't even give a second thought to that. That is what I mean though. Just on the subject on the rapture, how many different thoughts are there? These witnesses will preach with absolute clarity and perfection the testimony of Jesus, and there will be no room for arguing with them. What they say goes pretty much.

R: Well, okay, thanks, anyway.

I can't really answer your question, because those who have not seen the truth of the Gospel before the Rapture aren't enlightened as those who have done so.

 

[Butch5]

I noticed that as well, and didn't even give a second thought to that. That is what I mean though. Just on the subject on the rapture, how many different thoughts are there? These witnesses will preach with absolute clarity and perfection the testimony of Jesus, and there will be no room for arguing with them. What they say, pretty much goes.

Yes, I should have been more clear, I meant believers.

 

[Ryan]

R: Well, okay, thanks, anyway.

I can't really answer your question, because those who have not seen the truth of the Gospel before the Rapture aren't enlightened as those who have done so.

That's what I mean though. Look on any thread here and there will be objections, arguments, disagreements over interpretations, meanings of scripture and such. We all have our own truths, and at times, we try and uphold the truths we have been taught to other people, who have different truths of their own. I believe, and this is what I think is a truth, is believers will minimally be here for the testimony of the Two Witnesses. Yet another person, who believes in pre-trib and that is their truth, would object and provide different scripture to support that point of view or argument. So then who can honestly say they have seen and heard the truth of the Gospel when we all think we are right?

 

[Butch5]

That's what I mean though. Look on any thread here and there will be objections, arguments, disagreements over interpretations, meanings of scripture and such. We all have our own truths, and at times, we try and uphold the truths we have been taught to other people, who have different truths of their own. I believe, and this is what I think is a truth, is believers will minimally be here for the testimony of the Two Witnesses. Yet another person, who believes in pre-trib and that is their truth, would object and provide different scripture to support that point of view or argument. So then who can honestly say they have seen and heard the truth of the Gospel when we all think we are right?

I believe that's the difference between something taught and something inferred.

 

[Sinthesis]

Could believers be so offended by the two witnesses as to kill them?

 

[tohelp]

Will we accept their testimony, even if it doesn't conform to any of our long held belief's and theologies? Or will people count them up as being false witnesses, based on long held erroneous belief's and doctrines?

It is quite possible that people who have held to wrong theologies would reject them.

That's what I mean though. Look on any thread here and there will be objections, arguments, disagreements over interpretations, meanings of scripture and such. We all have our own truths, and at times, we try and uphold the truths we have been taught to other people, who have different truths of their own. I believe, and this is what I think is a truth, is believers will minimally be here for the testimony of the Two Witnesses. Yet another person, who believes in pre-trib and that is their truth, would object and provide different scripture to support that point of view or argument. So then who can honestly say they have seen and heard the truth of the Gospel when we all think we are right?

Truth is absolute.
There will be a rapture. It will happen at a set time. Some hold a pre-trib view and some hold a post-trib view. Now the important point to note is that since there are two beliefs regarding this, there are not going to be 2 raptures. So truth is absolute and it is in our interest to know the truth.

Not knowing the truth will have its implications. For example I believe in pre-trib and that the scripture supports it. So if you are a post-trib believer, what are safe? When Jesus said that He would take us before the tribulation and you don't believe Him, will He take you in the rapture? So not knowing the truth has its implications.

So instead of arguing it should be our endeavor to know the truth. We should always pry "Lord show me the truth." Also it would be a good idea to give considerable thought to someone who is presenting an idea that goes against what you believe and to study the portion of the scripture that is presented. Seeking the Holy Spirit's guidance when studying the scripture is necessary.

 

[Ryan]

Could believers be so offended by the two witnesses as to kill them?

Revelation 11:7 "When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them."

So I guess that would be a no, but if you believe in anything other than a pre-trib rapture, I believe it will be exciting times and testimonies from these 2 witnesses.

There will be a rapture. It will happen at a set time. Some hold a pre-trib view and some hold a post-trib view. Now the important point to note is that since there are two beliefs regarding this, there are not going to be 2 raptures. So truth is absolute and it is in our interest to know the truth.

Don't forget mid and pan.

Not knowing the truth will have its implications. For example I believe in pre-trib and that the scripture supports it. So if you are a post-trib believer, what are safe? When Jesus said that He would take us before the tribulation and you don't believe Him, will He take you in the rapture? So not knowing the truth has its implications.

IMHO I don't believe whether one thinks there is or isn't a rapture is a salvation thing. That's why I believe the testimony of the 2 witnesses will clarify to all believers and non believers what exactly is going to go down and the manner of such.

So instead of arguing it should be our endeavor to know the truth. We should always pry "Lord show me the truth." Also it would be a good idea to give considerable thought to someone who is presenting an idea that goes against what you believe and to study the portion of the scripture that is presented. Seeking the Holy Spirit's guidance when studying the scripture is necessary.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[tohelp]

So my question is this: Will we accept their testimony, even if it doesn't conform to any of our long held belief's and theologies? Or will people count them up as being false witnesses, based on long held erroneous belief's and doctrines?

First of we need to note that at the point in time the two witness arrive, there are no Christians left. The witness are preaching to the Israelites. A group of Israelites have already accepted Jesus and were sealed on their foreheads (144000 people). The witness are preaching to the rest of the Israelites as their last opportunity to accept the way of Salvation.

So my answer would be that, we will not be there to make corrections to our beliefs and theologies.

Could believers be so offended by the two witnesses as to kill them?

First, believers would not be be around, at that time.

If the question is "would the believes get offended with anyone so as to kill them?" Then the answer is no. If they do, then they are not believers. Believers are not supposed to get offended at anyone other than Satan and his angels.

 

[Ryan]

First of we need to note that at the point in time the two witness arrive, there are no Christians left. The witness are preaching to the Israelites. A group of Israelites have already accepted Jesus and were sealed on their foreheads (144000 people). The witness are preaching to the rest of the Israelites as their last opportunity to accept the way of Salvation.

So my answer would be that, we will not be there to make corrections to our beliefs and theologies.



First, believers would not be be around, at that time.

If the question is "would the believes get offended with anyone so as to kill them?" Then the answer is no. If they do, then they are not believers. Believers are not supposed to get offended at anyone other than Satan and his angels.

Sorry, I cannot accept your conclusions, and that is fine. I don't want to get into a debate whether it's pre-mid-post-pan, so I guess my question is only relevant to those who accept a mid-post-pan conclusion. I'm still not completely sold on any one of those 3, but I have pretty much ruled pre out of my equation. Don't get me wrong, wouldn't it be swell to escape the coming tribulation? But if he does, then he does. If he doesn't then, I'll still around to work. It's not my will when he does or doesn't want to remove his children. And this is straying very far off from my original thoughts. So if there are no more comments pertaining to my original post, let this thread die in peace.

P.S. By the way, I think the Two Witnesses are the two archangels Michael and Gabriel.

 

[John 8:32]

P.S. By the way, I think the Two Witnesses are the two archangels Michael and Gabriel.

I think that I can show you they are not. They are humans...

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Luk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Angels can't die. These guys are dead for 3-1/2 days.

As far as who they are, we will have to wait to see that one, it is not revealed in the scripture.

 

[Ryan]

Angels can't die. These guys are dead for 3-1/2 days..

Our Savior and Messiah died. God himself died. Why can't angels die then? Why are angels afforded a free pass on immortality?

 

[Ryan]

Revelations 11:4 provide clues on who they are. "These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth"

I'll provide relevant passages to look at to study this out. Remember though, the tabernacle was a mirror image of what was in Heaven.

Zechariah 4
Exodus 25:18-22
1 Kings 6:23-28
Exodus 37:6-9
Ezekiel 37:16
Ezekiel 10:1-12
Luke 1:19

They are the ‘Two Olive Trees’ pictured by Moses and Solomon standing on either side of the ark of the testament, which represents the very throne of God. I hope the above verses will get you started.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Revelations 11:4 provide clues on who they are. "These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth"

I'll provide relevant passages to look at to study this out. Remember though, the tabernacle was a mirror image of what was in Heaven.

Zechariah 4
Exodus 25:18-22
1 Kings 6:23-28
Exodus 37:6-9
Ezekiel 37:16
Ezekiel 10:1-12
Luke 1:19

They are the ‘Two Olive Trees’ pictured by Moses and Solomon standing on either side of the ark of the testament, which represents the very throne of God. I hope the above verses will get you started.

I like this Ryan.

Some thought needs to go into it.