Revelations 11:3-4

[Carolyn]

First of we need to note that at the point in time the two witness arrive, there are no Christians left. The witness are preaching to the Israelites. A group of Israelites have already accepted Jesus and were sealed on their foreheads (144000 people). The witness are preaching to the rest of the Israelites as their last opportunity to accept the way of Salvation.

So my answer would be that, we will not be there to make corrections to our beliefs and theologies.



First, believers would not be be around, at that time.

If the question is "would the believes get offended with anyone so as to kill them?" Then the answer is no. If they do, then they are not believers. Believers are not supposed to get offended at anyone other than Satan and his angels.

AMEN!

 

[Ryan]

I think that I can show you they are not. They are humans...

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Luk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Angels can't die. These guys are dead for 3-1/2 days.

As far as who they are, we will have to wait to see that one, it is not revealed in the scripture.

Revelations 11:1-3 “Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. Leave out the court which is outside the] temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. And I will grant authority to my two witnesses…”

Where else do you find this parallel passage?

Zechariah 2:1-3 “Then I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a man with a measuring line in his hand. 2 So I said, “Where are you going?” And he said to me, “To measure Jerusalem, to see how wide it is and how long it is.” 3 And behold, the angel who was speaking with me was going out, and another angel was coming out to meet him,”

Hmmm…looks a bit suspicious here. This isn’t proof right here, but the comparisons are undeniable.

Revelations 11:4 “4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.”

Again look at the parallel in Zechariah 4:

Zechariah 4:1-2 “He said to me, “What do you see?” And I said, “I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold with its bowl on the top of it, and its seven lamps on it with seven spouts belonging to each of the lamps which are on the top of it; 3 also two olive trees by it, one on the right side of the bowl and the other on its left side.”

And further on asking a second time who these olive trees are:

Zechariah 4:11-14 “11 Then I said to him, “What are these two olive trees on the right of the lampstand and on its left?” 12 And I answered the second time and said to him, “What are the two olive [e]branches which are beside the two golden pipes, which empty the golden oil from themselves?” 13 So he answered me, saying, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 14 Then he said, “These are the two [f]anointed ones who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth.”

Now I don’t know how one cannot at least acknowledge similarities here. But how do we know they are Michael and Gabriel? Let’s go back to where we first find 2 olive trees.

1 Kings 6:23 “ Also in the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim [angels] of olive wood, each ten cubits high.”

This is speaking of the sanctuary and what does it tell us about the earthly being an image of?

Hebrews 8:5 “who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain”

The pattern on earth was a direct replica of what it looked like in the heavenlies. Now Zacharias while performing his priestly duties was met by an angel, and what did he say?

Luke 1:19 “And the angel answered and said to him, “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God…”

There were only 2 angels ever named in the bible (not including lucifer). And what does Gabriel say about Michael?

Daniel 10:21 “However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your prince”

Knowing there were 2 angels in the sanctuary, and Gabriel being one, Michael must be the other as this passage means they stand together against the forces. I don’t know of anywhere else in the bible of anybody, Moses, Elijah, Enoch as being referenced as the olive trees. I believe these passages speak that the two witnesses will be two angels. Gabriel and most likely Michael. Michael is the leader of God’s armies (Revelation 12:7) and his name means asked as a rhetorical question, Who is like God? Gabriel means, Strong man of God?

But the're angels, and not human? Angels can take on human form and there are many examples of such.

Genesis 18:22 “Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord.”
Genesis 19:1 “Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.”
Hebrews 13:2 “Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.”

This is the cliff notes version, but I don’t see how it cannot be any clearer who the Bible points to who the two witnesses are.

 

[Sinthesis]

Any entity that conveys a message from God can be understood to be an angel of God.

 

[John 8:32]

Our Savior and Messiah died. God himself died. Why can't angels die then? Why are angels afforded a free pass on immortality?

Simply because God says so and that is good enough for me. I will ask Him at the resurrection, but for now all I can do is believe what He says.

 

[John 8:32]

Revelations 11:1-3 “Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. Leave out the court which is outside the] temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. And I will grant authority to my two witnesses…”

Where else do you find this parallel passage?

Zechariah 2:1-3 “Then I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a man with a measuring line in his hand. 2 So I said, “Where are you going?” And he said to me, “To measure Jerusalem, to see how wide it is and how long it is.” 3 And behold, the angel who was speaking with me was going out, and another angel was coming out to meet him,”

Hmmm…looks a bit suspicious here. This isn’t proof right here, but the comparisons are undeniable.

Revelations 11:4 “4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.”

Again look at the parallel in Zechariah 4:

Zechariah 4:1-2 “He said to me, “What do you see?” And I said, “I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold with its bowl on the top of it, and its seven lamps on it with seven spouts belonging to each of the lamps which are on the top of it; 3 also two olive trees by it, one on the right side of the bowl and the other on its left side.”

And further on asking a second time who these olive trees are:

Zechariah 4:11-14 “11 Then I said to him, “What are these two olive trees on the right of the lampstand and on its left?” 12 And I answered the second time and said to him, “What are the two olive [e]branches which are beside the two golden pipes, which empty the golden oil from themselves?” 13 So he answered me, saying, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 14 Then he said, “These are the two [f]anointed ones who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth.”

Now I don’t know how one cannot at least acknowledge similarities here. But how do we know they are Michael and Gabriel? Let’s go back to where we first find 2 olive trees.

1 Kings 6:23 “ Also in the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim [angels] of olive wood, each ten cubits high.”

This is speaking of the sanctuary and what does it tell us about the earthly being an image of?

Hebrews 8:5 “who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain”

The pattern on earth was a direct replica of what it looked like in the heavenlies. Now Zacharias while performing his priestly duties was met by an angel, and what did he say?

Luke 1:19 “And the angel answered and said to him, “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God…”

There were only 2 angels ever named in the bible (not including lucifer). And what does Gabriel say about Michael?

Daniel 10:21 “However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your prince”

Knowing there were 2 angels in the sanctuary, and Gabriel being one, Michael must be the other as this passage means they stand together against the forces. I don’t know of anywhere else in the bible of anybody, Moses, Elijah, Enoch as being referenced as the olive trees. I believe these passages speak that the two witnesses will be two angels. Gabriel and most likely Michael. Michael is the leader of God’s armies (Revelation 12:7) and his name means asked as a rhetorical question, Who is like God? Gabriel means, Strong man of God?

But there angels, and not human? Angels can take on human form and there are many examples of such.

Genesis 18:22 “Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord.”
Genesis 19:1 “Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.”
Hebrews 13:2 “Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.”

This is the cliff notes version, but I don’t see how it cannot be any clearer who the Bible points to who the two witnesses are.

Problem is they die and are dead for 3-1/2 days...

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Christ says angels don't die...

Luk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

 

[Ryan]

Problem is they die and are dead for 3-1/2 days...

Christ says angels don't die...

Luk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Uh-oh, we have a contradiction in the bible...

1 Timothy 6:15-16 " which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see.

How do we possibly reconcile these 2 verses that apparently contradict each other? Any ideas? Somehow, and I'll need to study this out, but I think the context is talking about marriage and if there was a resurrection, to whom would the wife belong to? That's what the Sadducees were asking. There is no marriage between each other in heaven, only the marriage to the Lord. Revelations 19:7 "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.”

In the meantime, I will settle on the verse that is clear about who has immortality vs. Luke 20 that is kind of ambiguous when talking about whether angels are immortal.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I believe it is the human body that is mortal.

If an angel possesses a human body, then it could die.

Why not?

 

[Ryan]

I believe it is the human body that is mortal.

If an angel possesses a human body, then it could die.

Why not?

I was just thinking that and the difference they are talking about is the heavenly realm vs. the earthly realm. There is no death in heaven, so how could anything die there? Jesus was explaining that heaven life is different then earth life.

 

[Sinthesis]

Of course the witnesses are on the earth when they die. They enter heaven after they are resurrected.

 

[Ryan]

:yes:yes

Of course the witnesses are on the earth when they die. They enter heaven after they are resurrected.

Of course. :yes

 

[for_his_glory]

It's sad to say that even professing Christians will look at the two witnesses as false teachers as even now many reject Gods word and the Holy Spirit as they are being seduced by those who teach a different gospel. I hope I'm not going off topic with the rest I have posted below and if I did I'm sorry as the topic of the rapture kinda filtered through some of the threads and thought I would add to it.

I believe Rev 11 to be past tense in that the two witnesses have already come and part has gone before the father as our intercessor (Jesus) and the other being the Holy Spirit remains until Christ returns for His Bride as the Holy Spirit indwells the hearts of those who are Gods true children and then the door of Salvation will be closed forever giving no one a second chance to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Not everything in Rev is lined up chronologically as to what will take place after the next.

If you read Zechariah Chapter 4 you will actually see that the two witnesses are Gods word and Spirit being that of Christ (word, John 1:14) who has come and will return again and the Holy Spirit (Gods Spirit) which is still with us until the door of Salvation is closed when Christ returns for His bride. It was God they stand before as it is Gods power and authority that was given to Christ on the day he was baptized by John that Gods Spirit fell on Jesus to empower him before he went out to preach for 3 1/2 years and at the end of those years Satan had thought he put an end to Jesus by having him killed, but God gave victory over the grave in raising Jesus in three days. BTW, no one taught me this as I understand this to be as comparing scripture with scripture to bring it all together. Just like the rapture or as the Bible calls it being caught up to meet Jesus in the air is not before some Great Tribulation as Jesus says we will always have tribulation until the day He returns. Nowhere in scripture does it speak about some Great Tribulation, but that we are to stand strong and endure all things as those who endure until the end will be saved and the end means when Christ returns and makes an end to all the abomination of sin and ushers down the New Earth and New Jerusalem.

 

[Ryan]

That's an interesting take for his glory, but not one I am in agreement with. I believe the two witnesses are literal and speak specifically of the end of days. There testimony will be 1260 days long, again I think that is literal. They have power to turn off the water tap and plague the world, again I think that is literal. The world will celebrate the deaths for they tormented the world. That could not be God's Word or Spirit as God has not poured out his wrath yet. So just that, I am convinced it is a literal humans or angels, with Michael and Gabriel being strong candidates. Although, I could be wrong. What I do know is their testimony will be the absolute truth that will destroy many long held denominational believes that had only served to divide the Church, not unite it. I was just thinking out loud and asking if the world will recognize them when they come? Especially the body of believers.

Matthew 24:21 " For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will."

I think this passage and the rest of Matthew 24 speaks clearly that we need to buckle up and get ready spiritually cause it's gonna be a rough ride.

 

[for_his_glory]

I always thought the two witnesses were going to be Elijah and Enoch, but the more I read this the more I saw it to be the word (Jesus) and Holy Spirit that the world already rejected, but that's my take on it and the important hing is that we need to know truth so we will not be deceived.

 

[Ryan]

...the important hing is that we need to know truth so we will not be deceived.

Very, very, very true. Mark 13:22 "for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect"