Bible Study Rich Man....Poor Man...

[Georges]

Why would Jesus tell this story if his sacrifice on the cross would negate the Torah.....Surely, Jesus knew he was going to die as prophesied. This is a parable about being faithful to the Torah and loving your neighbor as prescribed.

Luk 16:19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.


Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.


Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.


Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.


Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The Rich Man wasn't Torah (works) obedient in that he didn't take care of the poor (Lazarus). He begs Abraham to send Lazarus to back to warn his family of the consequences of his fate. What does Abraham say? He doesn't say, they have Jesus to listen to...or die on the cross for. What does Abraham say? If they hear not (that is obey) Moses or the Prophets, then they will not believe one who has risen from the dead....

Abraham did not correct the Rich Man in his theology....He corrected the Rich Man in his knowledge of human nature....

Abraham did not correct the Rich Man by telling him the Torah would be negated by the one risen from the dead, Abraham told the Rich Man that (in essence) the Torah wouldn't be followed (by those predisposed to Torah abstinence) even if a resurrected one came back and told them to follow it.

 

[Squeakybro]

I hope you remember that what ever conclusion you come up with it cant go against all these verses.

ABOUT THE OLD TESTAMENT
FROM THE NEW TESTAMENT
Heb 8:13
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
2 Cor 3:14-15
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
Gal 2:21
21 "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
John 10:8-9
8 "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
1 Cor 10:1-12
1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3 all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.
7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play."
8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell;
9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents;
10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come.
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
Rom 13:8
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
John 6:63
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
John 4:23-24
23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
John 17:17
17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
John 3:34
34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
John 3:33
33 "He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true.
John 3:35-36
35 "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.
36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Rom 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3-8
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
Gal 2:19-21
19 "For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
21 "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
Gal 3:24-25
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal 5:1-5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 4:21
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?
Rom 7:4-6
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another-- to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rom 13:10
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
1 Pet 2:19-21
19 For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one endures grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God.
21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
II Jn 1:9-11
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
John 1:17
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
(NKJ)
xxx Jesus wants everyone who is going to be a christian to understand that the new covenant(testament) is just that new. That you cant go back and keep any part of the old testament that Jesus hasnt brought over to the new testament. Jesus new what to bring over man doesnt. But the old testament has to be obsolete to you in order for you to get the fullness of the new testament. 11John 1-9 is very specific if you dont abide(live) in the new testament you dont have the real God. There IS a veil over the old testament that remains to THIS day.
If Jesus were in the old testament this verse could only be meant for God and the angels.
John 10:8-9
8 "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

 

[Georges]

I hope you remember that what ever conclusion you come up with it cant go against all these verses.

Squeak....Sure I remember it.....however, I'm not a Paulinist, so what Paul (or whoever wrote Hebs) has to say is of little value...or guarded value...and the verses you quote concerning the Legit apostles, work well with what I proposed, why? Because they were all Torah observent men until their deaths.

ABOUT THE OLD TESTAMENT
FROM THE NEW TESTAMENT
Heb 8:13
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The New Covenant takes place during the Messianic Millennial Kingdom age...and besides...the verse above says "becoming" not, is already gone.

2 Cor 3:14-15
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
Gal 2:21
21 "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
John 10:8-9
8 "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
1 Cor 10:1-12
1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3 all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.
7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play."
8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell;
9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents;
10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come.
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
Rom 13:8
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
John 6:63
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
John 4:23-24
23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
John 17:17
17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
John 3:34
34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
John 3:33
33 "He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true.
John 3:35-36
35 "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.
36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Rom 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3-8
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
Gal 2:19-21
19 "For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
21 "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
Gal 3:24-25
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal 5:1-5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 4:21
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?
Rom 7:4-6
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another-- to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rom 13:10
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
1 Pet 2:19-21
19 For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one endures grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God.
21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
II Jn 1:9-11
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
John 1:17
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
(NKJ)
xxx Jesus wants everyone who is going to be a christian to understand that the new covenant(testament) is just that new. That you cant go back and keep any part of the old testament that Jesus hasnt brought over to the new testament.

That is not true....Jesus taught not one mark will pass away from the Law...The Apostles themselves and even Paul claimed to be Torah observant in Acts...post ascension even....

Jesus new what to bring over man doesnt. But the old testament has to be obsolete to you in order for you to get the fullness of the new testament.

Not quite true there either....Jesus did not teach that .....niether did the Apostles....

11John 1-9 is very specific if you dont abide(live) in the new testament you dont have the real God. There IS a veil over the old testament that remains to THIS day.

A veil that will be lifted because Messiah will be teaching Torah from Jerusalem during the Millennial kingdom age...

If Jesus were in the old testament this verse could only be meant for God and the angels.
John 10:8-9
8 "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Squeky....as I had said, I don't generally use Paul anymore....he tends to muddle things...I only use him if he is in agreement with the Tanach, Jesus, James, Peter, John, and Jude...if he is not in agreement, then I don't use him...

 

[ChristineES]

Not all the verses he quoted were from Paul.
I believe that Paul was a good Christian man, he preached to the gentiles and died for his beliefs in Yeshua. The majority of what he wrote were repeated from what Yeshua said. There are a few things he wrote that were his own personal beliefs, but don't all Christians do that? I would not be so quick to dismiss Paul if I were you.

I notice there are some around here who will dismiss anything they don't want to agree with, even if it is in the Bible.

 

[Georges]

Not all the verses he quoted were from Paul.

And Christine...I said that the other's lined right up with what I was saying....BTW...how is the pdf coming along?

I believe that Paul was a good Christian man, he preached to the gentiles and died for his beliefs in Yeshua.

Did he...?

The majority of what he wrote were repeated from what Yeshua said.

Please present a direct...shoot, an indirect quote....Should be easy to do....he quoted him all of the time...

There are a few things he wrote that were his own personal beliefs, but don't all Christians do that?

The problem Christine is that his own personal belief is taken to be scripture...actually most of his commentary is his perception of how he thought his church should believe and behave.

I would not be so quick to dismiss Paul if I were you.

I don't need Paul....I have Jesus' pure example....might work for you as well....

I notice there are some around here who will dismiss anything they don't want to agree with, even if it is in the Bible.

Well Christine....what is the legitamate scriptures.....? That's the big question.

 

[ChristineES]

We are not far apart in our thinking, Georges. I read the Gospels a lot more than I read Paul's epistles. I like Peter's and John's epistles more than I like Paul's epistles What I wrote was actually not of fact but of opinion, so I really don't want to get into the scripture quotes at this time.
All I am saying is that Paul's writings weren't false. I have to agree that some of what Paul wrote does not exactly match up to watch the Gospels teach (As a woman, I may be a bit prejudiced in one thing, that Paul did not care for women or even respect them very much whereas Yeshua seemed to have a lot of respect for women and taught them as well (Mary and the woman at the well come to mind)). And God in the OT chose women as well to do his work at times- Deborah was chosen by God in the OT to judge the Israelites, and don't forget about Esther, Ruth or whatever.
I have come to regard Paul's letters (or epistles) as just that-letters. I would compare him to any evangelist, such as Billy Graham or whatever. I have never been 100% sure that Paul's epistles should have been included in the Bible. But I don't think they are bad either.
About the pdf, you never sent it since it was a Friday and you must have forgot over the weekend. As for that last blurb, that was just in general terms and not actually directed towards you. I actually should not have said it and I apologize.

 

[golfjack]

reply

My, Oh My, Saying that Paul is not important is like saying that the Bible isn't important. Hs epistles take over half the New Testament, and our all Holy Spirit inspired. No epistles contradict what Jesus said in the 4 Gospels.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[Georges]

We are not far apart in our thinking, Georges. I read the Gospels a lot more than I read Paul's epistles. I like Peter's and John's epistles more than I like Paul's epistles What I wrote was actually not of fact but of opinion, so I really don't want to get into the scripture quotes at this time.

Careful Christine...I'm kind of a pariah on the forum....you may not want to associate too much with me... :D

All I am saying is that Paul's writings weren't false. I have to agree that some of what Paul wrote does not exactly match up to watch the Gospels teach (As a woman, I may be a bit prejudiced in one thing, that Paul did not care for women or even respect them very much whereas Yeshua seemed to have a lot of respect for women and taught them as well (Mary and the woman at the well come to mind)).

Hey...just a side thing....Paul according to Ebionite tradition, proselyted to Judaism because he fell in love with the HP's daughter, who ultimately spurnned him....maybe this is why he broke ranks with the HP and with women....speculation...

And God in the OT chose women as well to do his work at times- Deborah was chosen by God in the OT to judge the Israelites, and don't forget about Esther, Ruth or whatever.

Women have very important roles...

I have come to regard Paul's letters (or epistles) as just that-letters. I would compare him to any evangelist, such as Billy Graham or whatever.

So would I.... :-D

I have never been 100% sure that Paul's epistles should have been included in the Bible.

They have their use....guardedly...

But I don't think they are bad either.

If they jive with the Tanach (OT), Jesus, James, Peter, John, and Jude.

About the pdf, you never sent it since it was a Friday and you must have forgot over the weekend. As for that last blurb, that was just in general terms and not actually directed towards you. I actually should not have said it and I apologize.

Apologies....I didn't slight you on purpose....I think it is important to read.

PM me your email and I'll send it off tomorrow...I'm fixin to leave the office pretty quick...

 

[Georges]

Re: reply

My, Oh My, Saying that Paul is not important is like saying that the Bible isn't important. Hs epistles take over half the New Testament, and our all Holy Spirit inspired. No epistles contradict what Jesus said in the 4 Gospels.



May God bless, golfjack

Golfjack.....It appears they do...very subtly.....

GJ, I'm a proponent of OT with the 4 Gospels, and Revelation only.....That's all you need. Acts and the Pauline letters aren't needed (Historically interesting). The Apostolic letters were written to counter Paul's epistles....so....they aren't really needed.

Holy Spirit inspired....? Can't debate that one...the mods are watchin...

No contradiction? Jesus taught Torah observance. Paul, Torah negation...(allegedly)