Romans 2

[BobRyan]

It follows that an action that will, in the future, makes us "unjust" will make us "unjust" immediately following the act itself. Thus, justification is ongoing. We are not just while committing spiritually deadly sins, my friend. It would be silly to say we are just after killing someone, and then only after we die, does God refer to that sin and call us unjust YEARS after the act...

You appeal to the case where someone loses salvation as an example of ongoing justification.

The "process of losing justification" can not be the definition of "ongoing justification" or else you would also have to argue that "losing justification is an ongoing process".

Take the case of one who HAS BEEN JUSTIFIED (Rom 5:1) this is a subjective "pronouncement" by God at the point of coming to faith "Having BEEN justified by faith WE HAVE peace with God"[/b]. It is individual, subjective and past tense.

However the Romans 2 concept is not about TODAY or even TOMORROW but about "the day in which according to my Gospel GOD WILL judge" -- this is an open, corporate objective form of Judgment as we see in Dan 7.

In that future judgment your salvation status -- does not change. Nobody goes into it lost and comes out saved. Nobody goes in saved and comes out lost.

It shows the reality of the Matt 7 claim of Christ "By their fruits you shall know them".

It argues that ONCE born-again (i.e a saint) the Christian now produces out of his new nature the fruits of the Spirit seen in Gal 5.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[francisdesales]

As I "tried" to explain on the "Purgatory thread" this is an "open forum" no RC proofs outside the bible will be accepted as "common ground" by the objective unbiased reader. The only thing you can "count on" is that all the readers agree to the authority of scripture.

Yes, it is an open forum. Thus, your interpretations of Scriptures should be backed by Scriptures themselves. If they are not, then they are open to rejection, as I have done on the purgatory thread.

Bottom line - NO appeal to RC sources, NO appeal to "we just say so" and NO appeal to "I bet Paul also taught x, y and z though we don't actually find it in scripture".

And ditto with the "tradition of BobRyan"... You may find this odd, but I do not find your words as infallible, nor your authority as appealing to me. In the end, you should be able to prove your theology from Scriptures, whether implicitly or explicitly. And as I said on the purgatory forum, you fail to do that. But enough lecturing on how Bob is not infallible here.

The thing that is so amazing is that so many RC members come here AS IF the goal is "to remain Catholic at all costs no matter how the discussion is going" RATHER than the goal of a cogent, compelling objective argument that appeals to the MOST COMMON grounds of agreement between both sides so as to appeal to a neutral (NON-Catholic) objective unbiased reader!

Merely saying your views are cogent and compelling just doesn't cut it. Your failure to answer a number of questions and sidestep the issues has been posted for all to see. And because you have no answer, you must stoop to such measures on another thread??? As I said before, I present my arguments and let the "lurker" decide. I don't expect the person I discuss these issues with to "convert". I have very rarely seen that happen in real life. People have too much emotional baggage attached to their paradigm, and one thread does not suddenly cause it to collapse.

Consider the Pharisees. They SAW with their OWN EYES the saving power of Christ but refused to follow Him. They had too much invested in their incorrect views. So do you.

I and others who are Catholic don't come here to stubbornly remain Catholic, but to present the TRUTH of Catholic teachings. For far too long, too many Protestants have been taught strawmen of Catholicism. It is our desire to explain Catholic teachings as correctly as possible, with Scriputral backing, and let the "lurker" decide if they make sense or not. I don't come here for any other reason. If I was so worried about being "convinced" of the correctness of Protestantism, I would not come here so as to damage my faith...

However, I have found that the Protestant arguments cannot hold up to true scrutiny. Thus, I am not worried and I will continue to post here to allow people to make more informed decisions on their faith, even if it is on something as Romans 2 and justification.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

You appeal to the case where someone loses salvation as an example of ongoing justification.

The "process of losing justification" can not be the definition of "ongoing justification" or else you would also have to argue that "losing justification is an ongoing process".

Take the case of one who HAS BEEN JUSTIFIED (Rom 5:1) this is a subjective "pronouncement" by God at the point of coming to faith "Having BEEN justified by faith WE HAVE peace with God"[/b]. It is individual, subjective and past tense.

Yes, it is past tense. And future greivious sins makes us unjust in God's sight, thus, we are not justified at that moment. God gave a great example of this in the Prodigal Son parable. Jesus even calls the son "dead" twice. That is what happens when we turn our backs on God and follow our own heart, cut ourselves off from God. We are spiritually dead. But God accepts us back when we repent. We are again just in God's eyes. So yes, justification ultimately depends upon how God sees us TODAY, not just when we first made that individual and past tense proclamation. At our baptisms, we promise to reject sin and the works of satan. Do we keep that promise afterwards?

However the Romans 2 concept is not about TODAY or even TOMORROW but about "the day in which according to my Gospel GOD WILL judge" -- this is an open, corporate objective form of Judgment as we see in Dan 7.

In that future judgment your salvation status -- does not change. Nobody goes into it lost and comes out saved. Nobody goes in saved and comes out lost.

Of course it doesn't. I am not talking about the moment of judgment. God has decided and we are just or unjust at that point irrevocably. However, it follows that over the course of our lives, we are NOT just or unjust depending upon our actions, as Paul mentions. You still have not explained how a person who God deems unjust at judgment day considered that man "just" during the time when he committed the acts that God LATER considered as deserving of eternal damnation. Since Paul says God will render judgment based upon our actions, we are just or unjust at the time of those actions...

It shows the reality of the Matt 7 claim of Christ "By their fruits you shall know them".

Yes, when a person kills someone, they will be known by their actions. NOT years afterwards upon their judgment in heaven. We will know them NOW. We will see them as unjust...

Again, you are avoiding the common sense argument...

Regards

 

[BobRyan]

Sanctification is a process because as Peter points out "If these qualities are yours and are INCREASING then..." you are walking in Christ and a Christian.

But "Justification does not INCREASE" it is not "a process".

You are simply barking up the wrong tree to prove your point that a person can lose salvation.

Paul says in 1Cor 15 "I die daily".

Christ said in luke 9:23 that we must "take up our cross DAILY and follow Him"

In 1Cor 9:27 Paul says "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified".

in Rom 11:27 - 28 Paul says "do not be conceited but FEAR for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you".

These texts point to the daily perseverance in the walk with Christ that is needed. They show the reality of the fact that you can lose your salvation.

In fact in Gal 5:4-7 Paul says "You have been severed from Christ" and "you have flallen from grace" but he also admits "you WERE running well" vs 7. so these too - lost salvation entirely.

These texts and others even more explicit -- show the reality of losing salvation but not one single one of them claims "Justification is a process increases over time" or that you are "increasingly justified".

I am simply pointing out that you have chosen the wrong tree -- to make your case for the reality of losing salvation.

---

However Romans 2 is not even about losing salvation it is about the perseverance, obedience and the "fruit of the spirit" SEEN IN the lives of those who are in fact saved.

So we need to focus on the actual text of Romans 2 in fairness to this thread.

Rom 2
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Pauls says "WILL be justified" not "Are BEING justified". Paul points to a future day -- a gospel judgment that is future for that corporate, objective, declaration of justification based on Christ's Matt 7 principle "by their fruits you shall know them"

As Daniel predicts in Dan 7 the "court will sit... the books opened" the myriads and myriads in attendance -- the Ancient of Days takes His seat.. and then Dan 7:22 finally "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[francisdesales]

But "Justification does not INCREASE" it is not "a process".

No, it is a state of being in God's eyes. Justification is not a one-time event.

These texts and others even more explicit -- show the reality of losing salvation but not one single one of them claims "Justification is a process increases over time" or that you are "increasingly justified".

I am simply pointing out that you have chosen the wrong tree -- to make your case for the reality of losing salvation.

I am not talking about losing salvation. We can't lose THAT salvation of first accepting our Lord. It happened and it cannot be taken away. My point from the beginning is that some Protestants equate our initial justification as eternal salvation, when it is clear that we can be considered "unjust" in God's eyes after first receiving the knowledge of our Lord, as Hebrews 10 mentions, for example. Now, since you agree that we can lose our eternal reward in heaven, at what point does this happen? Are we still considered just in God's eyes after a mortal sin? If a person can lose eternal salvation, then at some point, they were no longer considered just in God's eyes. God does not consider the evil just. When we are evil, we are no longer just...

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Eze 18:24

If a person can lose salvation to heaven, it follows that during his life, the man was no longer just in God's eyes...

However Romans 2 is not even about losing salvation it is about the perseverance, obedience and the "fruit of the spirit" SEEN IN the lives of those who are in fact saved.

The two are related, Bob. If one does not persevere, we lose salvation...

Pauls says "WILL be justified" not "Are BEING justified". Paul points to a future day -- a gospel judgment that is future for that corporate, objective, declaration of justification based on Christ's Matt 7 principle "by their fruits you shall know them"

As I said before, no one is just in God's eyes who murders. If God judges us based on what we did during our lives and finds we are worthy of damnation, God will be able to point to a time in our lives where we became unjust. Are you saying that a murderer is still just in God's eyes, and only upon his death, does God consider the man unjust???

As Daniel predicts in Dan 7 the "court will sit... the books opened" the myriads and myriads in attendance -- the Ancient of Days takes His seat.. and then Dan 7:22 finally "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

The saints are those who persevere, not those who 20 years ago proclaimed Jesus as their savior and then promptly fell away from the faith. The parable of the sower and the seed makes that clear.

Regards

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan wrote:

As Daniel predicts in Dan 7 the "court will sit... the books opened" the myriads and myriads in attendance -- the Ancient of Days takes His seat.. and then Dan 7:22 finally "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

Francis

The saints are those who persevere, not those who 20 years ago proclaimed Jesus as their savior and then promptly fell away from the faith. The parable of the sower and the seed makes that clear.

The saints that ARE persevering today MIGHT NOT persevere tomorrow. Today's saints are not necessarily the same as the saints Ten years from today (of those who are alive today that is) -- that is the sad news with the saints losing salvation -- a saint is then lost.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan wrote:

However Romans 2 is not even about losing salvation it is about the perseverance, obedience and the "fruit of the spirit" SEEN IN the lives of those who are in fact saved.

Francis said
The two are related, Bob. If one does not persevere, we lose salvation...

True and there are texts that MAKE that argument -- like Matt 18 and "forgiveness revoked" as well as the other texts I showed. But Romans 2 is not one of them. You have to argue FROM the statements IN the text not from long extensions you might like to insert at every hint of opportunity.

So in Romans 2 the POINT the text makes is NOT of the form "here is someone saved today -- but lost tomorrow" rather it is to draw the line between the one saved today and the one lost today and the details of HOW the judgment is said to state the difference (i.e on what "objective" basis given a "God who is NOT partial").

First things first. Romans 2 is a good chapter for arguing for the relationship among the saints between a changed NATURE and a changed LIFE that is lived in obedience to God. This is where some RC posters COULD do well in referencing the "actual details IN the text" and leaving "ad hoc homily" at home.

Trying to crowd every teaching into each chapter does damage to the text and destroys the Bible teaching credibility of those who blatantly attempt it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan wrote:

These texts and others even more explicit -- show the reality of losing salvation but not one single one of them claims "Justification is a process increases over time" or that you are "increasingly justified".

I am simply pointing out that you have chosen the wrong tree -- to make your case for the reality of losing salvation.

Francis

I am not talking about losing salvation. We can't lose THAT salvation of first accepting our Lord. It happened and it cannot be taken away. My point from the beginning is that some Protestants equate our initial justification as eternal salvation, when it is clear that we can be considered "unjust" in God's eyes after first receiving the knowledge of our Lord

You are using doublespeak again when you deny this is losing salvation then call it "losing justification" --

The point remains.

Use a chapter that SPEAKS to "losing salvation" or "Forgiveness revoked" or "severed from Christ" or "removed from Christ" (Use the actual words of scripture -- no making stuff up).

In an open forum NO doctrine will survive "ad homily" the way many traditionalists suppose. Nothing holds water in an open forum that is simply a string of "nice ideas that sound good at first but have very little Bible support from the text being quoted".

It simply does not work.

. Now, since you agree that we can lose our eternal reward in heaven, at what point does this happen?

Matt 18 gives and example but NO TEXT tells us "slice up sins into mortal vs venial and define the moment someone loses salvation". BENDING to the text to such extremes is not even remotely "exegesis".

The point of scripture is NOT "perfect clarity for humans on the exact moment salvation is lost" the POINT of scripture is the guiding principle and the harsh warning that Salvation can be lost and that rebellion against God is the way it is done.

IMAGINING that "murder will get your salvation lost but gossip or evil surmizing will not" is BENDING scripture -- not READING scripture and "letting it speak" for itself.

Romans 2 is a good example of the general principle stated WITHOUT getting to a "list of sins" and saying "THESE are mortal" but "These are venial".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

This is not the time to eisegete RC doctrine into a text that is ready made for PART of the argument but is not directed at ALL PARTS of the argument and so can not be BENT to that end.

Now BACK to the DETAILS that are actually IN the text of scripture (As though God's WORD -- not the imaginings and extrapolations of man -- had value).

Let the reader observe the details "in the text" for accuracy -

No reference AT ALL to "these sins are mortal but this list is not"

Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


Rom 2
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Details IN the text itself --

1. Why does Paul say that this future Judgment is "According to MY gospel"??
2. What is the description of the GENTILE who HAS NO access to scripture at all - and yet succeeds where "some" Bible-reading Jews fail? In the last 3 verses of Romans 2 we see one example of "an answer" FROM the text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[francisdesales]

No reference AT ALL to "these sins are mortal but this list is not"

As usual, Bob, you seem to want to find the entire Christian faith in one verse. Clearly, the Bible is a complicated web of faith that must be read in its entirety to understand isolated verses. Rather than continue discussing this idea of mortal sins, which is now off topic, I will just mention that Paul writes to the Galatians and the Corinthians about deeds that exclude one from heaven, as well as John speaking of "deadly" sins in contradistinction to 'non-deadly" sins.

As is your style, you reject something because the entire concept is not explained in one verse without understanding that the Bible often explains itself elsewhere.

1. Why does Paul say that this future Judgment is "According to MY gospel"??

Because Paul believed he was explaining a teaching different to the Judaizers' "gospel". There were alternative Christianities, even in the first century.

2. What is the description of the GENTILE who HAS NO access to scripture at all - and yet succeeds where "some" Bible-reading Jews fail? In the last 3 verses of Romans 2 we see one example of "an answer" FROM the text.

[/quote]

No doubt, I agree with you here, and is the basis for the Church teaching that even Muslims of good will and who are ignorant of Christ can be saved based on their works in Christ.

Regards

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, we are to do good works. If we have no desire to turn from sin and do good works, then it says something about our faith. However, if the sanctification process is part of our salvation and we are judged by the law, then if you committed a sin and died, you would be lost.

You are correct to point out that the law of God demands perfection -- sinless perfection or else the fires of hell await. Nothing between.

But notice the argument that Paul makes in Romans 2 is not of the form "Don't worry about obedience" rather his point is that the sign of the new life - the new creation is a life that pursues obedience to God's Word (that would include the commands of His Word) not rebellion against Him.

The law can only condemn us as a means to salvation. Doing good works is exactly what the Pharisees thought would make them right with God.

True - for the lost the purpose of the Law is only to condemn and show that all need salvation.

But the role of the law for the saved, the saints, the born-again shown in the New Covenant to be "The LAW of God written on the heart"Heb 8.

This is why Paul can say in Romans 3:31 "Do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"

What makes us right with God, what makes us spotless and worthy of heaven?

We are ALL sinners...even the person who could live a perfect life. That 'sinness' cannot go to heaven. Only Chris's robe can do that.

Indeed and that is the point of Romans 5 "Having BEEN JUSTIFIED by faith we HAVE Peace with God".

However the question at hand for this thread is specifically the FUTURE justification of Romans 2 "For not the hearers of the LAW ARE just but the DOERS of the LAW WILL BE Justified".

The issue here is how to accuratey accept that teaching of Paul as well as the Romans 5:1 concept of "Justification past".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[guibox]

Here is where I believe that the 'proof texting message' is misused. Many take this one verse and say 'See, our justification, our right standing with God, our atonement, is based on doing the law'

This is what justification is and this would be wrong and Paul would be blatantly contradicting himself.

The context of this chapter is first of all, the Jews who are judging others even though they do the same thing. In verse 5 it is shown that they will bring wrath down on them. a judgement for doing this. Second, the other issue is being 'judged with the law or without'. Paul is pointing out two scenarios. The Jews to be judged by the law because they have and follow the law. The Gentiles, on the other hand, don't know any law and they are judged without the law.

It is in this case, and not our right standing before God that 'good works' and the 'law' must be interpreted.

Second, the context of vs 13 is found in vs 12 which reiterates the second issue:

For as many have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law

vs 13 is an addendum, a side note continuation of what was just mentioned and must be interpreted by what was just said in vs 12.

vs 14 continues this logical progression of being judged without the law or with it:

For when the Gentiles which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves

Paul is basically saying that to be judged by the law, you need to be following it otherwise you are a law unto yourself and God will judge you accordingly.

To make vs 13 mean 'We are justified and made right with God by doing good works' is to make vs 13 a textual island unto itself devoid of the context of the surrounding passages.

 

[Imagican]

DOES The Spirit CONVICT those that DO WRONG? Does The Spirit offer admonishment for those that DO RIGHT?

If your answer is NO, then I guess I have little to offer.

But, for those that answer YES, let me NOW ask this:

Are we ABLE to BE followers of Christ and CONTINUE in 'conviction' for the SAME wrong over and over and over again. OR, will one simply FALL by their OWN ignoring of that which is offered in conviction?

Can a 'true follower of Christ' CONTINUE to live in the SAME sin and BE a 'true follower'?

For we HAVE been offered OVER and OVER again, and NOT only in Romans; that HEARING the Word does NOT make one a 'follower of it'. And to BE given the gift of life IS to; not ONLY hear, but to DO what has been commanded.

MEC

 

[Vic C.]

DOES The Spirit CONVICT those that DO WRONG? Does The Spirit offer admonishment for those that DO RIGHT?

MEC! That's two questions that require two different answers. Unless I am reading them wrong.

Yes,

and

No.

One of the reasons I am staying out is because my view seems to be the minority view. All I see in Romans 2 are Jews who know the law, but violate it and Gentiles who are without the law but conduct themselves as though they know it intimately.

I don't see Believers in Christ in this chapter, just Jews and Gentiles who don't know the Gospel.

In my humble opinion,
Vic

 

[Imagican]

I certainly understand your point, but we were also told that what was WRITTEN WAS for OUR benefit.

WITHOUT taking 'anything OUT of context', we can PLAINLY see that what is offered are NOT only concepts dealing with the Jews and Gentiles, but ALL of those that would BE 'Christians'. For ALL mankind at that point were ONE or the OTHER. And what was stated was PERTAINING to BOTH.

While the REASON that it was written MAY well have BEEN to set to rest certain understanding or to 'bring it about', that doesn't ALTER what was stated. For OFTENTIMES we are ABLE to gather information pertaining to one thing that is MOST CERTAINLY relevant to another that has NOTHING to do with the original 'understanding' or REASON that it was offered.

Take MATH for example. Once the basics are learned, we find that it holds TRUE regardless of HOW we USE it. Even at it's HIGHEST LEVEL the basics are STILL the foundation of it's principles.

But we COULD go EVEN deeper but few would be willing to follow. For the depths of understanding involved with this chapter go WELL beyond what has even been discussed here. Just a taste: ALL mankind was 'created BY God'. Therefore, ANY that 'show' the image in which they were 'created in' are ABLE to reflect that which IS God. Meaning? That even the Gentiles who were NEVER given the law as the Hebrews/Jews were, WERE able to come to understanding of 'right and wrong' WITHOUJT the law. Showing PLAINLY that IF there was LOVE present in their lives or culture, then this WAS the reflection of that which Created them out of this SAME LOVE.

in essence, ALL mankind was 'created' with the capacity to LEARN love. The chosen of God were given DIRECT LAW with the INTENT of teaching this. They failed misserably. Yet we can SEE that there were those that were NEVER offered such teaching, yet came to some of the understanding ON THEIR OWN. By simply LISTENING to that which stirred their hearts they WERE able to LEARN love. And I DON'T mean lust or desire, I mean TRUE Love.

Before there is any argument over this point; Take Job for example. We have NO indication that he was a Hebrew/Jew, or ANYTHING other than one that had LEARNED to LOVE God and through this; love his neighbors as well.

But back to the point. There IS no faith without works. And works are NOT automatic even in the hearts of those that have been circumcised. We can clearly see that BEING what we are MEANT to BE does NOT happen in an 'instant'. It takes TIME and effort to BECOME what we CAN. Can we 'work' our way to heaven? Impossible for it was/IS a 'gift'. But there is CERTAINLY work that it TAKES to follow where we are LED. The 'old man' CANNOT be utterly abolished by The Spirit. We MUST HEED The Spirit or suffer the temptaions; even to the point of death.

Some seem to 'think' that a 'few words' are ABLE to 'save one's soul'. If it were SO, then MUCH that we have been offered is VOID.

MEC

I know, funky huh? But truth nevertheless.

MEC
MEC

 

[francisdesales]

I don't see Believers in Christ in this chapter, just Jews and Gentiles who don't know the Gospel.

In my humble opinion,
Vic

Vic,

while that is certainly a valid understanding, is God a respecter of persons, to INCLUDE Christians? Are we then going to be held upon a pedestal, while Paul tells the Romans that God is NOT a respecter of persons? Paul later warns Christians that they could be removed from the olive tree! I see no reason to think that this CANNOT apply to Christians, as well. We are all aware of Christians who are not "spiritual Jews"...

Regards

 

[BobRyan]

Here is where I believe that the 'proof texting message' is misused. Many take this one verse and say 'See, our justification, our right standing with God, our atonement, is based on doing the law'

This is what justification is and this would be wrong and Paul would be blatantly contradicting himself.

If you take the "Justification past" that we see in Romans 5:1 "having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE peace with God" and try to glue it on to the "Justification FUTURE" that we see in Romans 2 then you are right - you get a contradiction.

Justification past -- is the one received when the sinner comes to Christ. NONE of the "obedience" listed in Romans 2 can possibly be apart of that coming to Christ since the sinner is only living a life of rebellion at that point.

But Paul in Romans 2 is speaking to the other side of the equation -- the one where the born-again Christian under the New Covenant supposedly has "the LAw of God written on the heart".

That is not the way the lost sinner comes to Christ - but it IS the way the saved - born-again saint lives their life "No Longer I WHO Live but CHRIST that lives in me and the life that I LIVE I live by faith in the Son of God" as one whom John argues that "WALKS as Jesus Walked" 1John 2.

In Romans 2 Paul presents BOTH Jews AND Gentiles in the "failing case" AND he presents BOTH in the "succeeding case".

Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


Rom 2
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Notice -- we see in those texts above - BOTH the failing cases and the successful cases. And in the successful case we have the reward "glory honor... immortality and eternal life".

Paul declares in Romans 2 "He is a Jew who is one INWARDLY and circumcision is of the HEART by the Holy Spirit"

I don't see Believers in Christ in this chapter, just Jews and Gentiles who don't know the Gospel.

In my humble opinion,
Vic

In your view - how are unbelievers getting "eternal life" in this chapter?


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Second, the context of vs 13 is found in vs 12 which reiterates the second issue:

For as many have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law

vs 13 is an addendum, a side note continuation of what was just mentioned and must be interpreted by what was just said in vs 12.

vs 14 continues this logical progression of being judged without the law or with it:

[quote:5c1e3]For when the Gentiles which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves

Paul is basically saying that to be judged by the law, you need to be following it otherwise you are a law unto yourself and God will judge you accordingly.

To make vs 13 mean 'We are justified and made right with God by doing good works' is to make vs 13 a textual island unto itself devoid of the context of the surrounding passages.[/quote:5c1e3]

Certainly the sinner can not come to Christ "seeking right standing based on their own righteousness" - however the contrast between the lost and the saved in Romans 2 is very clearly stated in a works-based construct that is explicit in the text.

Because of that and because Paul mentions that this justification is "future" on "the day when God judges the secrets of all men through the man Christ Jesus" we know this to be the objective, corporate and legal sense of Daniel 7's judgment when in a corporate legal courtroom context "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 9:22 as a result of the "books being opened and the court sitting with the Ancient of Days presiding".

Paul also refers to this same FUTURE Romans 2 concept of justification in that courtoom again in 2Cor 5 "We must ALL stand before the Judgment seat of Christ to given an account for the deeds done in the body whether they be good OR bad" -- the same "good deeds vs bad deeds" context that we see in Romans 2 is consistently held up by Paul whenever he speaks of that FUTURE judgment and FUTURe justification before God who as Paul says "Is NOT Partial".

That future judgment is not a case where "the lost become saved" it is rather that Matt 7 case of the "good tree being SEEN to BE a good tree" while the "bad tree is SEEN by it's fruits to be truly bad".

The "trees are not changing" in that future judgment they are simply being "revealed" for what they already are.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

When Paul speaks of "gentiles who do not have the law" he means "who do not have the Word of God" who do not have "scripture".

Proof is seen in Romans 3:2-5 where Paul asks "What benefit then is there for the Jew" and responds with the frank admission that it is "GREAT" in EVERY respect for "theirs are the ORACLES OF GOD" the WORD of God -- the Bible - the scriptures!

He is contrasting the People of God -- the Bible Believing servants of God - the Jews given the mission of being a light to the nations -- with the unbelieving nations (gentiles) who have no Bible at all. Paul declares that the gentiles in some cases SHOW the NEW COVENANT work of the "LAW written on the heart" -- as in "Love Joy Peace Patience ..." for Paul argues that "circumcision is of the heart" and it is "done by the Holy Spirit".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Laudate Dominum]

When Paul speaks of "gentiles who do not have the law" he means "who do not have the Word of God" who do not have "scripture".

Proof is seen in Romans 3:2-5 where Paul asks "What benefit then is there for the Jew" and responds with the frank admission that it is "GREAT" in EVERY respect for "theirs are the ORACLES OF GOD" the WORD of God -- the Bible - the scriptures!

He is contrasting the People of God -- the Bible Believing servants of God - the Jews given the mission of being a light to the nations -- with the unbelieving nations (gentiles) who have no Bible at all. Paul declares that the gentiles in some cases SHOW the NEW COVENANT work of the "LAW written on the heart" -- as in "Love Joy Peace Patience ..." for Paul argues that "circumcision is of the heart" and it is "done by the Holy Spirit".

in Christ,

Bob

IMO, the Law better refers to the Mosaic covenant, not the Hebrew Scriptures in the stricter sense of the word.