Romans 2

[BobRyan]

Yes, we are to do good works. If we have no desire to turn from sin and do good works, then it says something about our faith. However, if the sanctification process is part of our salvation and we are judged by the law, then if you committed a sin and died, you would be lost.

Well it is true that you can lose salvation -- as Matt 18 argues for "forgiveness revoked".

But it is not the case that "with each sin you lose salvation" for john makes it very clear in 1John 2:1 "These things I write to you that you sin not -- but if anyone sins we have an advocate with the Father".

It is also not the case that any bible text says "each time you sin after becoming a Christian your sanctification stops".

Sanctification means "set apart" devoted to God.

Can we as sanctified saints - be tempted ? yes.

Can we in fact sin at times? yes.

But the "Sanctification" that we experience causes us "By the Spirit to put to DEATH the deads of the flesh" as we see in Romans 8.

And as Christ argues in Matt 7 "good fruit comes from a GOOD TREE" -- a good tree we are via the "New Birth" for Paul says "IF anyone is in Christ he is a NEW creation, old things are passed away". 2Cor 5.

FOR the LOST sinner -- the "law can only condemn".

But for the SAVED SAINT -- the NEW Covenant "Writes the LAW of God on the HEART" Heb 8 so that as Paul says "DO we then make VOID The Law of God by our faith?? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God".Rom 3:31

The law can only condemn us as a means to salvation.

True for the person who is NOT saved and is "seeking salvation" seeking to "become saved" -- that person is "seeking a means of salvation". But the saved Christian has FOUND it "Having been Justified by faith WE HAVE peace with God" Rom 5:1 which leads us to the NEW condition "The LAW written on the heart" and the NEW situation of "A GOOD TREE that bears GOOD fruit".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In Romans 3 "Justified by faith APART from the works of the Law" and in Romans 5 "having BEEN justified by faith we have peace with God" are cases of "past-tense" forensic justification that is complete and "sufficient" so that the one that dies within the scope/bounds of that justification is in fact saved and as they see the end of this life come to them - will immediately wake up to be welcomed in resurrected form into Heaven at the 2nd coming.

But that "future justification" that REVEALS that the good trees are in fact "good trees" will still make the pronouncement such that "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 on the day when "God WILL judge the secrets of all men through the man Christ Jesus" Romans 2.

That future judgment -- produces a legal justification that is based on works -- the things revealed in our lives SHOWING that we either ARE born-again or we are not.

Well said, Bob.

Thank you. sometimes I am not sure if my posts are clear and I know that there are many diverse views on this subject that can get in the way of a simple rendering of the text.

God's blessings to you.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Imagican]

I just want to offer thanks to those that have participated in this thread. There have been some awsome responses and enlightenment offered.

We should 'take heed' lest the devil beguile us in an unnatural affection for this world and that which pertains TO IT.

"let it all hang out", "just be yourself", "What me worry"...........these are 'catch phrases' that have become prevalent in our present age. While they 'sound' good and are pleasing to the flesh, we MUST NOT allow them to alter the perspective that we have been offered through The Spirit, or they WILL become JUST THAT: CATCH phrases.

It's NOT about OUR pleasure or contentment. It's about our offering OUR LOVE to others and Our Father and His Son. For; "Faith without works IS DEAD". It's as if there is NO FAITH AT ALL for those that do NOT produce the fruit of their labors.

That the 'works' COME from above does NOT negate the FACT that they ARE to BE 'worked THROUGH US'. And the ONLY way that this is possible is IF we allow ourselves to BE conformed to that which we were 'created to BE'. And this CANNOT be done by 'ourselves alone'. But IT CAN be accomplished with strength and guidance from above. But WE TOO have OUR responsibility. We CANNOT just 'sit back' and EXPECT or WAIT for God to 'do it FOR US'. WE TOO are members of an "Holy Family" and BEING members MEANS that we TOO are to participate and WORK towards the 'harmony' and COMPLETENESS OF 'this Family'. Each PART fitting jointly together for the sake of THE COMPLETENESS of the WHOLE. If this doesn't TAKE WORK, then what can one expect in return.

For as it is stated, 'he who does NOT work, does NOT EVEN deserve to EAT'. There is NOTHING on this planet that is worthy of ANYTHING without WORK. You CANNOT just 'sit back' and EXPECT anything other than NOTHING or something of NO CONSEQUENCE. That MANY in todays society have LEARNED to simply TAKE what is offered has NO BEARING on the TRUTH.

So, do we WORK our way to heaven? IMPOSSIBLE. But we WILL 'work' IF we are LED by The Spirit. For that IS the fruit that distinguishes those that ARE 'saved' from those that 'are not'. It IS the 'work' that SHOWS that we ARE members of The Body. It IS the 'work' that makes us WORTHY to claim sonship. For WITHOUT THE WORKS, we may as well be NOTHING other than 'members of THIS WORLD'.

And let us NOT confuse TRUE 'work of The Spirit' with work DONE to 'impress others'. If it does NOT COME FROM THE HEART, then it is NOT 'true works'. For there will be MANY that step to Christ in the end and offer; 'LOOK at ALL the wonderous 'things' that we have done in your name'. And this to NO AVAIL, for the answer that they will receive is that THESE WORKS were done for THEIR OWN SELVES instead of 'true works'. And USING the 'name of Christ' means little in the scope of this subject. For when Satan comes in the flesh, he will MOST LIKELY use the NAME OF CHRIST to lure many. Christ even warned us that there would come MANY 'claiming' to BE the Christ. But to avoid these like the plague. For most likely WHEN the TRUE Christ returns, He won't have to even MENTION 'who' He IS; For ALL WILL KNOW that He IS the ONE and ONLY.

And folks, work is NEVER easy. For to accomplish any task, to do it well takes HARD WORK. Adam's punishment was that 'through the sweat of his brow would he WORK all the days of his life in order to EAT'. We are told that The Word is our FOOD to 'eat' so that we may GROW in The Lord. Reading TAKES WORK. Study TAKES WORK. And boy let me tell you, learning to LOVE YOUR ENEMY TAKES WORK.

We were TOLD to 'run the race as if we MEAN TO WIN IT'. Now that doesn't sound like a 'passive role'. That sounds like something that we MUST be WILLING to 'devote our VERY LIVES TO'. And in this world in which we live, THAT IS WORK, for it is THERE to snare us at EVERY TURN. So JUST 'trudging along' with ALL the armour that we are to wear is a 'job in itself'.

MEC

 

[Drew]

Hello stranger:

I read your post with care and found it to be interesting. However, I do not think it actually addressed a central issue in relation to Romans 2. And that is whether, at the judgement therein described, eternal life with God will be granted on the basis of good works that are manifested by the believer.

I believe that the text cannot be read otherwise. But, as people who have read my posts will know, this position can be made to made to work perfectly well with the claim that we are justified by faith, as long as we follow Paul's thinking and realize that he addresses justification in a number of tenses - past, present, future.

 

[Drew]

......crickets.

I know this will seem confrontational but.....

There has been a decided silence in response to multiple attempts on my part to get people to explain why, if Paul believed justification was not based on good works, he would make some very specific statements in Romans 2 whose "plain reading" shows that he believes this very thing about the coming judgement described in Romans 2

And I think I know why. There simply is no way to explain what Paul has written in Romans 2 that can work with the view that the coming judgement is not based on good works with eternal life in the balance. That is, unless one believes that Paul got confused or was a terrible writer and wrote something that is false.

A very common way to deal with Romans 2 in the reformed tradition is this: "He can't really mean what he says in Romans 2, since in Romans 3 and elsewhere, Paul goes on to state that it is impossible for men to be justified by works".

Well, there are 2 huge problems with that view:

First, solid arguments exist that Paul never denies justification by "good works" - he denies justification by doing the works prescribed by the Torah.

Second, it leaves unanswered the niggling question: "If Paul believes that people cannot be justified by good works, what in the world was he thinking as he penned (or dictated) Romans 2:1-13?" You see, when one "forces" people to confront the fact that one fine day, Paul actually wrote Romans 2:1-13 and presumably meant to tell us something, one is, I suggest, forced to see there is no way to make sense of what he wrote and preserve the view that good works do not count to our justification on the last day.

To qoute NT Wright, Bishop of Durham on the matter of a final judgement according to works:

The third point is remarkably controversial, seeing how well founded it is at several points in Paul. Indeed, listening to yesterday’s papers, it seems that there has been a massive conspiracy of silence on something which was quite clear for Paul (as indeed for Jesus). Paul, in company with mainstream second-Temple Judaism, affirms that God’s final judgment will be in accordance with the entirety of a life led – in accordance, in other words, with works. He says this clearly and unambiguously in Romans 14.10–12 and 2 Corinthians 5.10. He affirms it in that terrifying passage about church-builders in 1 Corinthians 3. But the main passage in question is of course Romans 2.1–16.

 

[stranger]

Hello stranger:

I read your post with care and found it to be interesting. However, I do not think it actually addressed a central issue in relation to Romans 2. And that is whether, at the judgement therein described, eternal life with God will be granted on the basis of good works that are manifested by the believer.

I believe that the text cannot be read otherwise. But, as people who have read my posts will know, this position can be made to made to work perfectly well with the claim that we are justified by faith, as long as we follow Paul's thinking and realize that he addresses justification in a number of tenses - past, present, future.

Hi Drew,

The text can be read in the knowledge that it is a developing argument by Paul. If you make Romans 2 a focal lense for determining the gospel through which you look at every other scripture including the remaining chapters of Romans, then I have to ask why did you choose Romans 2 in the first place in preference to other texts or passages that also decribe granting eternal life? You are up against the weighting problem - as you have argued your point for Romans 2 I sense that for you there has been increased weight (conviction) that this is actually right. Of course Wright could be wrong and that would lead you up the garden path.

I am convinced that unless a man is justified - he is incapable of doing a good work in the sense that God can see that the work arose out of His (God's) own nature. ie we partake of the divine nature. Thus it would qualify for works prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

In Romans 2 you have Pauls' observation about the righteous and the wicked - the righteous do good and receives a reward, while the wicked does evil etc. This sort of observation is about what men are, what they do and how God judges them. It is the acceptance of the good works by God that makes them a good work. I am confident that, as I have already stated, this good work arises or originates out of God's own nature. Hence my previous post where I said that justification translates to righteousness which is still God's but is given to us.

So justification is first - even if it is not mentioned in Romans 2 - for without it you cannot find a man capable of good works. If you agree with this we move on. . . if not I will come back to this point. Faith without works is dead and can be declared null and void.

There has been a decided silence in response to multiple attempts on my part to get people to explain why, if Paul believed justification was not based on good works, he would make some very specific statements in Romans 2 whose "plain reading" shows that he believes this very thing about the coming judgement described in Romans 2

Paul makes observations akin to those found in proverbs about the righteous and the wicked. The works accompanying these two stereotypes are sufficent proof for God to judge the matter correctly. There is silence at this stage in Paul's letter AS TO HOW we found a righteous man in the first instance.

And I think I know why. There simply is no way to explain what Paul has written in Romans 2 that can work with the view that the coming judgement is not based on good works with eternal life in the balance. That is, unless one believes that Paul got confused or was a terrible writer and wrote something that is false.

A very common way to deal with Romans 2 in the reformed tradition is this: "He can't really mean what he says in Romans 2, since in Romans 3 and elsewhere, Paul goes on to state that it is impossible for men to be justified by works".

Let's assume that Paul means what he says.

Well, there are 2 huge problems with that view:

First, solid arguments exist that Paul never denies justification by "good works" - he denies justification by doing the works prescribed by the Torah.

It is the law that determines what is good and evil in this arguement. But there has to be right judgment in the person who beholds. . . Hence Paul found fault with Jesus before the event on the road to Damascus. After Paul was converted he found no fault in Jesus. Paul is confident that the law will reveal TO those who try to do good works that they will fail. ie they are sinners.

Second, it leaves unanswered the niggling question: "If Paul believes that people cannot be justified by good works, what in the world was he thinking as he penned (or dictated) Romans 2:1-13?" You see, when one "forces" people to confront the fact that one fine day, Paul actually wrote Romans 2:1-13 and presumably meant to tell us something, one is, I suggest, forced to see there is no way to make sense of what he wrote and preserve the view that good works do not count to our justification on the last day.

Good works are proof enough for God that you have been justified. But it is not the good works that justified you. Are you focusing on Romans 2 too intently and losing focus on what the rest of scripture teaches? Have to go - will look at point 3 later.

take care

 

[Imagican]

How about THIS:

We cannot BE justified through WORKS ALONE. We cannot WORK our way to heaven and we cannot recieve eternal life WITHOUT works. This would offer explaination of WHY there are the TWO separate views and without the COMBINING of the TWO, there is NO complete understanding.

We ARE justified by 'being born again' and we are justified by 'DOING' and NOT just HEARING. A 'two fold' justification system that makes PERFECT sense.

Of course the OSAS crowd will sqeal like pigs over such a 'belief' or 'doctrine', but when we read The Word we are left with ONLY this conclusion. For 'faith without works is DEAD'. And we CANNOT 'work our way' into 'eternal life'. Therefore we MUST have 'faith', (an acceptance and belief in Christ and His Father), and we MUST produce WORKS in order to RECEIVE that which has been PROMISED to those that both have faith and produce works.

If ALL one NEED do it 'profess' Christ AS their Savior, then that would make the OTHER HALF of the Word of NONE effect. For we have been offered MUCH MORE than JUST 'the profession' BEING 'enough'.

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

You need to know the difference between works and merit.

 

[Imagican]

You need to know the difference between works and merit.

Actually all WE NEED to KNOW is the TRUTH. And that pertains to LOVE. Once we are ABLE to come to the TRUTH concerning LOVE, then and ONLY THEN are we able to DO the Works that we have been commanded to DO.

For IF we DO that which we DO for the simple sake of ADHERANCE, then at this point it becomes of NONE effect. JUST as the parable concerning the woman and the penny: The REASON that her offering meant MORE than 'all the others' is that SHE did it for the RIGHT reason while everyone else was 'doing it' to CONFORM to that which they felt OBLIGATED to DO.

In this SAME respect, we are to DO what we DO for ONE REASON. Any other is simply 'going through the motions' out of OBLIGATION instead of understanding or FAITH.

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

You need to know the difference between works and merit.

Actually all WE NEED to KNOW is the TRUTH....

Like I said: You need to know the difference between works and merit:

Paul tells us: "For [God] will reward every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in working good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. There will be . . . glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality" (Rom. 2:6–11; cf. Gal. 6:6–10).

In the second century, the technical Latin term for "merit" was introduced as a synonym for the Greek word for "reward." Thus merit and reward are two sides of the same coin.

Protestants often misunderstand the Catholic teaching on merit, thinking that Catholics believe that one must do good works to come to God and be saved. This is exactly the opposite of what the Church teaches. The Council of Trent stressed: "[N]one of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification; for if it is by grace, it is not now by works; otherwise, as the Apostle [Paul] says, grace is no more grace" (Decree on Justification 8, citing Rom. 11:6).

The Catholic Church teaches only Christ is capable of meriting in the strict senseâ€â€mere man cannot (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2007). The most merit humans can have is condignâ€â€when, under the impetus of God’s grace, they perform acts which please him and which he has promised to reward (Rom. 2:6–11, Gal. 6:6–10). Thus God’s grace and his promise form the foundation for all human merit (CCC 2008).

Virtually all of this is agreed to by Protestants, who recognize that, under the impetus of God’s grace, Christians do perform acts which are pleasing to God and which God has promised to reward, meaning that they fit the definition of merit. When faced with this, Protestants are forced to admit the truth of the Catholic positionâ€â€although, contrary to Paul’s command (2 Tim. 2:14), they may still dispute the terminology.

Thus the Lutheran Book of Concord admits: "We are not putting forward an empty quibble about the term ‘reward.’ . . . We grant that eternal life is a reward because it is something that is owedâ€â€not because of our merits [in the strict sense] but because of the promise [of God]. We have shown above that justification is strictly a gift of God; it is a thing promised. To this gift the promise of eternal life has been added" (p. 162).

source:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Reward_and_Merit.asp

 

[Catholic Crusader]

It sounds to me like you are combining justification with sanctification. I believe the Bible teaches us that justification is a single act....

You should really listen to this:
http://www.bringyou.to/ScottHahnBAM1990.mp3

...starting around the 11 min 47 sec mark

 

[stranger]

Hi Drew,

In Romans 2 Paul addresses the Jews. I believe that that has bearing on why he wrote about works and rewards.

 

[Drew]

Hi Drew,

In Romans 2 Paul addresses the Jews. I believe that that has bearing on why he wrote about works and rewards.

The material I am referring to in Romans 2 cannot be about the Jews to the exclusion of the Gentiles. Paul clearly rules that out multiple times:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Surely, you are not saying that the above text describes something that will only happen to Jews. Paul would have to be out of his mind to write the above and intend the reader to understand that the judgement in question would only befall Jews.

 

[stranger]

Hi Drew,

In Romans 2 Paul addresses the Jews. I believe that that has bearing on why he wrote about works and rewards.

The material I am referring to in Romans 2 cannot be about the Jews to the exclusion of the Gentiles. Paul clearly rules that out multiple times:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Surely, you are not saying that the above text describes something that will only happen to Jews. Paul would have to be out of his mind to write the above and intend the reader to understand that the judgement in question would only befall Jews.

Hi Drew,

What I am saying is that Paul is discussing Jews and in that context he mentions the gentiles. The reason for mentioning gentiles is that the Jews were practising oneupmanship.The jews were judging themselves to be better than the gentiles.

12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

There are general principles that apply to both Jew and Gentile eg- being judged by God and judging others, God WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS etc. So while there are general principles at work where God shows no partiality.

There are specifics that apply only to the Jews.The partial hardening that Paul talks about in Romans 11:25 only fell upon the Jews: For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. No such hardening has fallen upon the gentiles. A very strong case can be made about the distinctiveness of the Jews in God's plan of redemption.

So Paul retains the consciousness of who the Jews are - in some passages this is more obvious than in others but it can be seen in Romans 2.

My response was a bit hurried - I think I am losing sight of your basic argument in all this. But I am conscious of one thing. When the circle is closed between justification by faith and works 'justification by faith' will be turned upside down since our works are sufficient grounds for God to judge us and reward us. This is not to say we can be saved by works - which I don't believe, and as I have argued in a previous post, but that works are very important without which I don't see how the circle closes.

How we read the scriptures and what we are looking for are determinants that play a role in interpretation.

take care