Romans 9:20-21

[gr8grace]

If you could point out where exactly you've answered this, I'd retract my implying otherwise with an apology.

And I guess entire arguments don't work here. Let's try them one at a time to resolve the CRUX of the issue.

Why? Is it a Just and Righteous act of God? When ALL of us are condemned for Adam's sin, is this not upholding Eze 18:2 which ought not to be upheld?

And does God cause unbelief in man at any point in time? Please start your response with a simple Yes/No before continuing with the explanation/clarification, so as to maintain clarity.

I will run through it again,

God can NOT be held responsible for sin and its consequences. But He Does Hold himself responsible for His plan to save that sinful man. Tit 1:2;2 Tim 2:13 And because He has given us this Plan I can look to Him and Be CONFIDENT that He did not lie to us about His plan.

It was Just and righteous because He saw all of us Sin before he created this world. Rom 5:12;Rom 5:18;Rom 11:32;John 3:18

And God Has consigned ALL to unbelief that He may have mercy on ALL.

YES God has CAUSED all to be unbelievers Rom 11:32 Gal 3:22 But notice that it is Unbelief, Belief is the only way out. Sin put us under condemnation, And God put us in a state of unbelief in that condemnation and the only thing He requires of us is to believe to get out. John 6:40;Acts 16:31;John 3:18;John 3:15;John 20:31

And setting up HIS plan of salvation He has obligated Himself to follow that plan Tit 1:2; 2 Tim 2:13 Not because of who WE are but because of who HE is.

And what a GREAT Joy we have in this Plan we did not deserve it but because of the way He did it and set it up, He is able to save to the uttermost.

He wants us saved He does not want to see us BURN because we deserve it.

The reason we have freewill, Is for one reason and one reason alone. If we did not have freewill we would never have seen one attribute of God that He is completely and utterly filled to the Brim with. Grace and Mercy.

If we did not have freewill we would have never seen His greatest attribute...His Grace. And He created us so we could SEE and RECEIVE His Grace. And if we boast in His Grace HE gets the Glory.

 

[Mitspa]

Sin dwells in your WHOLE being Mitspa, not just in your flesh! And when you believe, the Spirit comes to Dwell in you and makes you a New creature. That is a simple christian tenant. Eph 1:13-14

And if it was NOT imputed to you, give me ONE scripture that says otherwise.

If we start out justified and then sin. Are you telling me that, just maybe,just maybe we can make it through this life perfect?

I did not post anything but what is clear and evident in scripture.
The "believer" is sanctified in spirit, the flesh still the agent of sin. This is why Paul said I know nothing good lives in MY FLESH, then he continues on over and over to say that because our the sinful condition of all flesh that all relationship with God is based upon the spiritual union with God. "for those who worship God must worship Him in spirit and truth"
We are the circumcision which worship God in spirit, and have no confidence in the flesh.

You seem to make a point and then try to change to meaning of your point when others see the fault in your doctrines.

"IMPUTED SIN" was your statement! have you now changed your position?

 

[ivdavid]

I will run through it again,

This was quite a good summary of your position. But it's still missing a few crucial details which I shall raise over the following posts.

God can NOT be held responsible for sin and its consequences.

Acknowledged.

because Adam sinned God caused ALL men to be Born in unbelief

It was Just and righteous because He saw all of us Sin before he created this world. Rom 5:12;Rom 5:18;Rom 11:32;John 3:18

You have given 2 different reasons above as to why God Justly and Righteously caused man to be born with a sin nature - which of them is the actual reason? And what is the exact connection between Adam's sin and God's causing us to be born in unbelief with a sin nature?

It was Just and righteous because He saw all of us Sin before he created this world. Rom 5:12;Rom 5:18;Rom 11:32;John 3:18

But you also said that "We are born with a sin nature(therefore we sin)" - and so when "God saw all of us Sin before He created this world", isn't such sinning only because He caused ALL of us to be Born with a sin nature? How then is God Just and Righteous if He is the cause of our sinning(from your interpretation of Gal 3:22)?

 

[ivdavid]

If we start out justified and then sin. Are you telling me that, just maybe,just maybe we can make it through this life perfect?

Why should not that possibility arise at all? Why can't God allow people to start justified like Adam - then those who make it through this life 'perfect' remain uncondemned - and those that sin can always seek redemption through belief in Christ. Is it not more righteous for God to provide a positive starting point than a negative starting point where He can?

 

[gr8grace]

I did not post anything but what is clear and evident in scripture.
The "believer" is sanctified in spirit, the flesh still the agent of sin. This is why Paul said I know nothing good lives in MY FLESH, then he continues on over and over to say that because our the sinful condition of all flesh that all relationship with God is based upon the spiritual union with God. "for those who worship God must worship Him in spirit and truth"
We are the circumcision which worship God in spirit, and have no confidence in the flesh.

You seem to make a point and then try to change to meaning of your point when others see the fault in your doctrines.

"IMPUTED SIN" was your statement! have you now changed your position?

There are four real imputations in the Bible Mitspa.

The first imputation is Adam’s original sin to the sin nature. Romans 5:12: Therefore, just as through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and [spiritual] death spread to all men [by means of imputation] because all sinned [when Adam sinned]. Romans 5:14: Nevertheless, [spiritual] death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him [Jesus Christ] Who was to come [the 1st Advent of Christ]. 1 Cor 15:22: In Adam, all die. Rom. 5:16: And the gift [Jesus Christ] is not like what occurred through the one who sinned [Adam]; For on the one hand, the judicial verdict came by one transgression resulting in condemnation [a real imputation], but on the other hand, that gracious gift [Christ's incarnation and Atonement] because of the many transgressions resulting in a judicial act of justification.

As an aside, there is a reason why Adam’s original sin is imputed to all of us—we need to stand condemned before God at birth, so that, if we die prior to the age of accountability, the Lord’s death on our behalf can be applied to us. All children who die before the age of accountability (before they are able to understand and make a decision about Jesus Christ) are therefore saved. Their volition is not an issue in the Angelic Conflict, because they have not yet considered God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

David, when his infant son died, said, “He will not return to me; I will go to him.” 2 Sam 12:23 and all mentally challenged Jonah 4:11

 

[gr8grace]

Why should not that possibility arise at all? Why can't God allow people to start justified like Adam - then those who make it through this life 'perfect' remain uncondemned - and those that sin can always seek redemption through belief in Christ. Is it not more righteous for God to provide a positive starting point than a negative starting point where He can?

Why should this not be a possibility? Rom 5:12;Rom 5:18;Gal 3:22;Rom 11:32;Psa 51:5...Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

If you stop and think about it, if you hold to that possibility that would and does NEGATE the Christ.

And I am trying to show you that being condemned at birth IS A POSITIVE thing, not a negative. if God started us out as Justified not ONE of us would make it.

This is why we cannot and will not make any headway, these verses are being denied in our debate. That is why what I say sounds childish and unlearned to you.

We are just into semantics and play on words now, so I will bow out for the time being.

So this is were you and I differ then.

If no man in the flesh can obey Gods will. He created all men like that, all men. Rom 5:12;Rom 5:18; Gal 3:22

And He promises All men that he will Judge with righteousness and Justice and with equity Ps 9:8;Rom 1:16-17; Ps 96:10

Then He would be unjust If just 1 man was not allowed access to John 6:40

I believe that ALL men have been given By God the ability to reject or to receive Jesus Christ as their Savoir. Ecclesiastes 3:11

 

[ivdavid]

This is why we cannot and will not make any headway, these verses are being denied in our debate.

It becomes quite restrictive for me to discuss here if one cannot differentiate between a belief I profess and a hypothetical argument I make to discern the boundaries of the other's belief framework.

I believe all of us are born in sinful flesh...

This is a belief I profess. Does this deny any of the verses you've presented?

Why can't God allow people to start justified like Adam...

This is a hypothetical argument - and given my earlier professed belief, I obviously do not believe this to be happening - so this hypothetical is only meant to find out exactly why you believe God HAS to impute sin to All of us(I believe the same, but for a different reason). Why could He not execute His plan of salvation by starting us out uncondemned instead of condemned? And I did get a response that helps me understand just that bit more of your position that I couldn't know until you stated this -
Jarrod Kruger - "if God started us out as Justified not ONE of us would make it."

That's a strange belief. Then you are eliminating with certainty the very possibility of Adam and Eve being saved - since they did start out uncondemned. What is your basis for such a belief - especially given Eve's expression of faith in God's promise of a seed to her? Please tell me, why cannot God redeem people who have fallen from the state of uncondemnation - why must He be limited to only redeem people who begin condemned? In other words, why cannot He save Adam and Eve?

Can a king show mercy to only those who are born immoral? Can he not show mercy to people who are born amoral and who later turn immoral?

We are just into semantics and play on words now, so I will bow out for the time being.

I would at any point in time respect your decision to continue discussing or not - but do so of your own choice, kindly do not base it off another's implied(wrongly or otherwise) incompetence.

I was expecting to see you defend your quite apparent denial of God's Justice and Righteousness in the following exchange -

It was Just and righteous because He saw all of us Sin before he created this world. Rom 5:12;Rom 5:18;Rom 11:32;John 3:18

But you also said that "We are born with a sin nature(therefore we sin)" - and so when "God saw all of us Sin before He created this world", isn't such sinning only because He caused ALL of us to be Born with a sin nature? How then is God Just and Righteous if He is the cause of our sinning(from your interpretation of Gal 3:22)?

Your argument goes as - God causes men to be born with a sin nature(Gal 3:22) => and the sin nature causes us to sin => conclusion that God causes us to sin. How then is God deemed Just and Righteous?

And also, how is He Just if He further justifies His causing us to be born in condemnation based on His foreknowledge of our sinning, which He seems to be the root cause of anyway according to your explanation?

 

[Mitspa]

There are four real imputations in the Bible Mitspa.

The first imputation is Adam’s original sin to the sin nature. Romans 5:12: Therefore, just as through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and [spiritual] death spread to all men [by means of imputation] because all sinned [when Adam sinned]. Romans 5:14: Nevertheless, [spiritual] death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him [Jesus Christ] Who was to come [the 1st Advent of Christ]. 1 Cor 15:22: In Adam, all die. Rom. 5:16: And the gift [Jesus Christ] is not like what occurred through the one who sinned [Adam]; For on the one hand, the judicial verdict came by one transgression resulting in condemnation [a real imputation], but on the other hand, that gracious gift [Christ's incarnation and Atonement] because of the many transgressions resulting in a judicial act of justification.

As an aside, there is a reason why Adam’s original sin is imputed to all of us—we need to stand condemned before God at birth, so that, if we die prior to the age of accountability, the Lord’s death on our behalf can be applied to us. All children who die before the age of accountability (before they are able to understand and make a decision about Jesus Christ) are therefore saved. Their volition is not an issue in the Angelic Conflict, because they have not yet considered God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

David, when his infant son died, said, “He will not return to me; I will go to him.” 2 Sam 12:23 and all mentally challenged Jonah 4:11

I think you are failing to see the difference between "imputed" righteousness and the act of sinful man. We where not imputed as sinners because Adam sinned we BECAME SINNERS by Adams sin. We are "imputed" righteousness based upon faith in Christ. A whole world of difference. Rom 4:5-6 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly.

You seem to make a point and then argue against that point.

Sin is not imputed, it is proven by the law that all men are sinners! Righteousness is "imputed" by faith.

This is a whole world of difference. The strength of your doctrines seem to be the lack of any biblical logic that I can see?

 

[gr8grace]

I think you are failing to see the difference between "imputed" righteousness and the act of sinful man. We where not imputed as sinners because Adam sinned we BECAME SINNERS by Adams sin. We are "imputed" righteousness based upon faith in Christ. A whole world of difference. Rom 4:5-6 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly.

You seem to make a point and then argue against that point.

Sin is not imputed, it is proven by the law that all men are sinners! Righteousness is "imputed" by faith.

This is a whole world of difference. The strength of your doctrines seem to be the lack of any biblical logic that I can see?

We stand condemned at birth, because Adam’s original sin has been imputed to the sin nature, which we received genetically from Adam. You may be born with your mother’s eyes and your father’s hair, but you have a sin nature which you inherited from Adam. Imputed to that sin nature is Adam’s original sin. Rom 5:12;Rom 11:32

The personal sins which we commit are a natural result of having a sin nature. I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do, I know not. For what I desire, that I do not do; but what I hate, that I do (Rom. 7:14). See also Rom. 8:3

Jesus Christ died for the sins which we have committed and which we will commit—meaning, He took upon Himself the punishment for these sins. Our sins were imputed to Jesus Christ, which is a judicial imputation (there is nothing in Jesus which had a natural affinity for our sins). He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that dying to sins, we might live to righteousness; by Whose stripes you were healed (1 Pet 2:24; Isa 53:5). Spiritual death healing.

Therefore, we are no longer condemned because of our sins. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus (Rom 8:1). Belief, John 16:9

Our attitude toward Jesus Christ becomes the issue to us. Just as the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil tested Adam’s volition, when there was no sin; the tree of the cross tests our volition in a world of sin. For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16). For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom. 6:23).

As a result, we are justified, which means, God’s righteousness is imputed to us. And the gift [Jesus Christ] is not like what occurred through the one who sinned [Adam]; For on the one hand, the judicial verdict came by one transgression resulting in condemnation [Adam’s original sin], but on the other hand, that gracious gift [salvation by means of Christ’s death on the cross] because of the many transgressions resulting in a judicial act of justification (Romans 5:16).

 

[Mitspa]

We stand condemned at birth, because Adam’s original sin has been imputed to the sin nature, which we received genetically from Adam. You may be born with your mother’s eyes and your father’s hair, but you have a sin nature which you inherited from Adam. Imputed to that sin nature is Adam’s original sin. Rom 5:12;Rom 11:32

The personal sins which we commit are a natural result of having a sin nature. I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do, I know not. For what I desire, that I do not do; but what I hate, that I do (Rom. 7:14). See also Rom. 8:3

Jesus Christ died for the sins which we have committed and which we will commit—meaning, He took upon Himself the punishment for these sins. Our sins were imputed to Jesus Christ, which is a judicial imputation (there is nothing in Jesus which had a natural affinity for our sins). He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that dying to sins, we might live to righteousness; by Whose stripes you were healed (1 Pet 2:24; Isa 53:5). Spiritual death healing.

Therefore, we are no longer condemned because of our sins. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus (Rom 8:1). Belief, John 16:9

Our attitude toward Jesus Christ becomes the issue to us. Just as the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil tested Adam’s volition, when there was no sin; the tree of the cross tests our volition in a world of sin. For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16). For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom. 6:23).

As a result, we are justified, which means, God’s righteousness is imputed to us. And the gift [Jesus Christ] is not like what occurred through the one who sinned [Adam]; For on the one hand, the judicial verdict came by one transgression resulting in condemnation [Adam’s original sin], but on the other hand, that gracious gift [salvation by means of Christ’s death on the cross] because of the many transgressions resulting in a judicial act of justification (Romans 5:16).

Now I can agree with this post! I will say also that the "flesh" is still the agent of sin. Thus we have the spirit and flesh conflict shown throughout the epistles. Although righteousness has been "imputed" and our sin judged in the Body of the Lord. We in the flesh, are unable to please God.
So then we are to "walk in the spirit" and we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

 

[ivdavid]

We in the flesh, are unable to please God.

Could you elaborate on the scope of what we are able to or unable to do in the flesh? Can man in the flesh put his faith in God, thereby be pleasing to Him in that?

 

[Mitspa]

Could you elaborate on the scope of what we are able to or unable to do in the flesh? Can man in the flesh put his faith in God, thereby be pleasing to Him in that?

Good question! And we know the scripture declares without question that those who are in the flesh, cannot please God!
It is clear to me that true faith is in fact not an ability of the "flesh" but the soul of a man.
Do you have any thoughts upon the issue? I must admit that not all things as it relates to soul and spirit have been shown to me.

 

[ivdavid]

And we know the scripture declares without question that those who are in the flesh, cannot please God! It is clear to me that true faith is in fact not an ability of the "flesh" but the soul of a man.

I do not wish to turn this into a debate here - so my questions on this are only for me to understand how you're seeing this. When you say "It is clear", could you point out what you came across that made it clear for you? Also, I have seen Scripture describe man as being either "in the flesh" or "in the spirit" - I haven't come across an "in the soul" usage that's independent of the earlier two. How do you see man having faith - is he 'in the flesh' or 'in the spirit' or in something other than these two?

Do you have any thoughts upon the issue?

Quite a few, I suppose. I think I began with Php 3:3-6 - where Paul describes practically his entire life from birth to the point of his conversion in the context of having no confidence 'in the flesh', presumably as opposed to having confidence 'in the spirit' - which is reaffirmed by passages like John 6:63 and Gal 3:3 [These passages refer to the Spirit which is given only after we are no longer in the flesh but in the spirit(Rom 8:9)].

This had further witness in my own salvation experience(I don't much prefer talking about an individual experience instead of what's in Scripture - but I think this is a valid point in the context of how my own beliefs were formed) - where at the time of conversion, I felt compelled to look back at my entire life and could not point to one single act(not dramatized exaggeration, but provable fact) that could be declared good in the sight of God.

Add to the above, John 3:6 and Romans 7 and 8. And I concluded that flesh is the "self-nature" that we are born with into the world, passed down from Adam(John 3:6). This "self-nature" is corrupted with and under sin consequent to Adam's disobedience(Rom 7:18;5:12). Hence, the inclinations of the self-nature(with sin in it) is not subject to God's will, neither can it be(Rom 8:7) - therefore, man in this self-nature(flesh) cannot be pleasing to God since one in the flesh is always inclined of the flesh(self-nature)[Rom 8:5].

This necessitates the new birth of the inner-man(John 3:5,Eph 3:16), where just as we were born into this world in the flesh from flesh - we are born into the body of Christ in the spirit from Spirit(John 3:6) - where the spirit is the God-nature in us that's directly in contrast with the self-nature of the outer-man.

Each of these 2 natures(self-nature[flesh] and God-nature[spirit]) comprise of the ability to generate Desires in us(Eph 2:3,Php 2:13) - and following that, each of these natures comprise of a mind to Counsel which Desire to act upon(Col 2:18, 1 Cor 2:16), followed presumably by the actual Power to act upon such a Counselled Desire(1 Cor 4:19,Eph 3:16). The mind is from where our understanding(construction of the framework of all interacting beliefs in our heart) is originated. This inner man could be perceived as the image of God, reflecting the Father's Will/Desire, the Son's Counsel and the Spirit's Power.

One's "soul" is a distinct entity from his "nature". The soul is the individuality of every person - it takes what is Counselled and acts upon it with the Power provided to get Desires realized. Our emotions or reactions to the success/failure of these Desires also take place within our soul. Basically, when we use the phrases "in the flesh" or "in the spirit" - the 'soul' is the answer to "the What" is in the flesh or in the spirit.

I have been verbose only out of necessity to put forth my current understanding and beliefs. I would be willing to clarify where required, else simply ignore this if you find it irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Mitspa]

ivdavid, It looks as if we have much in common in relation to the truth of scipture? I think I see one key point where we may disagree?
The believer is yet subject to the desires of the flesh and can in deed be "born-again" of the Spirit and yet live in the flesh. I think this is made very clear in scripture.

You seem to have much knowledge of scripture, so the scriptures that relate to the few points I have made, are not hidden, but are well known. I enjoy a converstaion with those who know the scriptures and do not require this unending back and forth of scripture that seems to bear little fruit. I know you are familar with the scriptures that I have mentioned, if you would like to post them in a way that shows some error i have in doctrine, I would be glad to look at your points.

Also I like to deal with one issue at a time, not sure I could explore the truth of scripture in deeper levels with one who rejects such a clear and evident truth as the effect of the flesh upon a believers spiritual walk?

 

[ivdavid]

I think I see one key point where we may disagree?
The believer is yet subject to the desires of the flesh and can in deed be "born-again" of the Spirit and yet live in the flesh. I think this is made very clear in scripture.

No, I don't think we have a disagreement here - at least not entirely. The "inner" man is obviously inside the "outer" man - so, if you could visualize the "flesh" as an 'outer' container, and the "spirit" as an 'inner' container within the whole outer container, then the soul of a regenerate person would be within the inner container - and the soul of an unregenerate person would be outside the 'inner' container but within the 'outer' container.

And the soul is subject to all the influences of the containers it is within - so for an unregenerate person, his soul is within the outer-flesh and is subject to the inclinations of the flesh but is outside the inner-spirit and hence is not subject to its inclinations, thereby we call unregenerate people as spiritually dead(Matt 8:22) and carnal(of the flesh) only.

In the case of the regenerate soul, it is within the inner-spirit and thereby obviously also within the outer-flesh and hence is subject to both the influences of the spirit and the flesh(Gal 5:17). When man's spirit is filled with the Power of the Spirit of God, the flesh's power is subjugated and its deeds mortified.

I'd still hold that the regenerate person is "in the spirit" and not "in the flesh" to differentiate against the unregenerate person who is "in the flesh" alone. But the regenerate person "in the spirit" need not always necessarily "walk in the spirit"[Gal 5:25,16] - he may "be in the spirit" and yet "walk in the flesh" and such are yet carnal(of the flesh) when they "walk" as the unregenerate(1 Cor 3:3).

These are my beliefs on the point you raised. If required, I could elaborate more on the specifics.

 

[Mitspa]

No, I don't think we have a disagreement here - at least not entirely. The "inner" man is obviously inside the "outer" man - so, if you could visualize the "flesh" as an 'outer' container, and the "spirit" as an 'inner' container within the whole outer container, then the soul of a regenerate person would be within the inner container - and the soul of an unregenerate person would be outside the 'inner' container but within the 'outer' container.

And the soul is subject to all the influences of the containers it is within - so for an unregenerate person, his soul is within the outer-flesh and is subject to the inclinations of the flesh but is outside the inner-spirit and hence is not subject to its inclinations, thereby we call unregenerate people as spiritually dead(Matt 8:22) and carnal(of the flesh) only.

In the case of the regenerate soul, it is within the inner-spirit and thereby obviously also within the outer-flesh and hence is subject to both the influences of the spirit and the flesh(Gal 5:17). When man's spirit is filled with the Power of the Spirit of God, the flesh's power is subjugated and its deeds mortified.

I'd still hold that the regenerate person is "in the spirit" and not "in the flesh" to differentiate against the unregenerate person who is "in the flesh" alone. But the regenerate person "in the spirit" need not always necessarily "walk in the spirit"[Gal 5:25,16] - he may "be in the spirit" and yet "walk in the flesh" and such are yet carnal(of the flesh) when they "walk" as the unregenerate(1 Cor 3:3).

These are my beliefs on the point you raised. If required, I could elaborate more on the specifics.

very good, you have a gift of going into what has been made very complex, bringing those issues together, and then explaining them others in a more simple way.

The gospel needs those with your ability. Blessings-Mitspa