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romans 9 study

You simply figured on mischaracterizing my statement, thus my continued admonishments about your lack of intellectual honesty.

Again, how so.. by telling the truth ? Are you going to pretend that you didn't say that you didn't agree with MY POOR INTERPRETATION of Romans 5:18... but it's obviously ok when you say things like this right... anyone else though and of course they're not as honest as the Calvinists..

My mistake. On v. 18, to say He's saying that all men will be saved is to make the Bible contradict itself. He's making a parallel argument.

Who said that all men will be saved...? What I did say is that ALL MEN in Adam are under condemnation.. do you at least agree with that part of it..?
 
even:

was talking about Romans 5:18, not verse 8... where it plainly teaches that ALL in Adam are under condemnation

Rom 5 18 teaches no such thing. It nowhere states that all in Adam are under condemnation.. You said that..
 
Rom 5 18 teaches no such thing. It nowhere states that all in Adam are under condemnation.. You said that..

really, then by all means explain how it doesn't.. explain how that by the offense of one condemnation has come upon all men... doesn't mean that all men in Adam are condemned..
 
really, then by all means explain how it doesn't.. explain how that by the offense of one condemnation has come upon all men... doesn't mean that all men in Adam are condemned..

You stated that Rom 5 18 states that all men in adam are under condemnation, that verse does not say that, you are misrepresenting scripture..
 
I am not sure how this undermines my argument. I have shown that, in the Pharoah example, Paul takes the reader specifically to texts in the Old Testament that deal, not with "eternal destiny", but rather with Pharoah being chosen to resist the exodus. This is the text that Paul quotes

16 But I have raised you up [a] for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. 17 You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go. 18

I am simply taking Paul seriously, if he tells us that the choice God made in respect to Pharoah had to do with his (Pharaoh's) resisting of the exodus, I will believe him.

According to James, this kind of resistance is antithetical to salvation. To say that Pharaoh was somehow a closet believer in the Messiah is not backed by scripture. According to Paul, the same faith that saved Abraham also saved me. Those who were saved before the Messiah came were saved by grace through faith in Him, just as those who believe after his resurrection are saved by grace through faith in Him.
 
Again, how so.. by telling the truth ? Are you going to pretend that you didn't say that you didn't agree with MY POOR INTERPRETATION of Romans 5:18... but it's obviously ok when you say things like this right... anyone else though and of course they're not as honest as the Calvinists..

My mischaracterizing my attitude as one of superiority. That's antithetical to Reformed Theology.

Who said that all men will be saved...? What I did say is that ALL MEN in Adam are under condemnation.. do you at least agree with that part of it..?

To be clear, I don't believe you are a universalist, but the way you are misusing scripture you make yourself look like one, or at least that you lean that way (IMO). When the scripture says "all men" we should look at the context to ensure we're getting the actual meaning of the writer, should we not? It's not right to take a wooden literalistic view of pet scriptures to support self-serving doctines (IMO).
 
According to James, this kind of resistance is antithetical to salvation. To say that Pharaoh was somehow a closet believer in the Messiah is not backed by scripture.
I never posted anything that could lead to the conclusion that Pharoah was a believer.

My argument - still unchallenged - is that Paul's point about the "election" of Pharaoh was that he (Pharaoh) was elected to resist the exodus, not to go to hell. For all I know, Pharaoh was indeed "lost", but, and this is the key point, it is clearly not Pharaoh's eternal fate that Paul is interested in explaining in Romans 9.

According to Paul, the same faith that saved Abraham also saved me. Those who were saved before the Messiah came were saved by grace through faith in Him, just as those who believe after his resurrection are saved by grace through faith in Him.
I entirely agree, but this does not challenge the argument that Paul is not describing an "election" of Pharaoh to eternal loss, but rather an election to resisting the exodus.
 
He hardens whom He wills !



rom 9:

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

This is Paul's teaching on the absolute Sovereignty of God[in hardening] as He pleases, not as He is responding to some other cause outside of Himself as the reason for hardening.

God raised up Pharaoh to illustrate this point. God had in mind romans chapter 9 when He created or gave being to Pharaoh, as this event would be referred to centuries later when one of His True servants would use its Illustration in preaching the Gospel of God and declaring Gods complete Sovereignty in the matter of Individual salvation.

I say individual, because Pharaoh was a individual like all of us are. Now those who oppose the Truth of what Paul is preaching here, like to say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart first and that is why God harden His heart as punishment; but that is not the Truth at all, for it was Gods purpose all along to harden Pharaoh heart in order to bring upon him the plagues, you know the ten plagues.

gen 15:

13And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

14And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

Will I judge, that means God had already determined to display the ten plagues, so Pharaoh was raised up for that purpose and God controlled his heart to fulfill His determination to Judge that nation of which he was raised up as the head. prov 21:

1The king's [Pharaoh] heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Now with this said, the opposer's still twist Gods truth to force it to agree with their sentiments, that is called wresting scripture, or corrupting the word of truth.

Now there are 18 references within Exodus that speaks about the hardening of Pharaoh's heart, we will look at these references as see how many of the 18 speak of God hardening his heart or his heart being hardened and Pharaoh himself hardening his own heart. We will see which truth is the most emphasized in Gods word of truth.

ex 4:

21And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

7:

3And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

13And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

14And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.

22And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.

8:

15But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

19Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

32And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

ex 9:

7And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.

12And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

34And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

35And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.

ex 10:

1And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:[see gen 15:14]

20But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

27But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

ex 11:

10And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

ex 14:

4And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.

8And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.

17And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

Now how many times [ in red] did scripture say Pharaoh hardened his own heart ? How many times does scripture say God hardened his heart or that Pharaoh heart was hardened, meaning he was passive and not active.[ in bold]

I counted 16 out of 19 times it is emphasized in Exodus that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, now you do the math.

This is why Paul used this historical event in rom 9 and emphasized that God hardens whom He wills. Its a given that if God hardens ones heart [ First cause] that the lesser will correspond and do that which agrees with the First cause, for it is Gods ability being displayed not the lessers objects ability. God says that His power [ ability] may be displayed in Pharaoh.

rom 9:

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Now I already know that most are going to reject this clear teaching of scripture, but I already know why ! Their hearts are hardened by God to believe a lie.
 
True, but the argument in Romans 9 is clearly about God hardening people for reasons other than sending them to hell.

People who don't believe in the Messiah go to hell. Period.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
- John 14:6

It's silly to intimate that Pharaoh's destruction was not integral to his opposition to God, his lack of faith in the Messiah, which has everything to do with his eternal destination.
 
People who don't believe in the Messiah go to hell. Period.
True, but clearly not the point. The question is what is Paul saying about Pharoah in Romans 9? And I suggest it has been clearly shown that Paul never makes any statement about God hardening Pharoah to send him to hell.

He hardened him to make him resist the exodus....."period" (except my "period" has a supporting, Biblically grounded argument).

People It's silly to intimate that Pharaoh's destruction was not integral to his opposition to God, his lack of faith in the Messiah, which has everything to do with his eternal destination.
You have, in the past accused others of engaging in strawman argument. Well, you are repeatedly doing this yourself.

I never posted anything that suggests that Pharaoh's lack of faith did not affect his final destination.

I have only taken Paul at his word - Pharaoh was hardened to resist the exodus.
 
@Drew, you're drawing a line between Pharaoh's opposition to God's immediate plan for the Exodus and His plan for the Messiah. The problem with that is that it's all the same plan.
 
road:

It's silly to intimate that Pharaoh's destruction was not integral to his opposition to God, his lack of faith in the Messiah,

Thats a good point, because Moses actions were motivated by Faith in the Messiah Heb 11:

24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;


25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
 
drew:


True, but clearly not the point. The question is what is Paul saying about Pharoah in Romans 9? And I suggest it has been clearly shown that Paul never makes any statement about God hardening Pharoah to send him to hell.

The point is not about sending pharoah to hell, the point is that God is Sovereign on why He gives each individual a being to fulfill His Purpose. Hence some beings are created for the purpose of being vessels of wrath and being fitted for destruction.

Now what is the destruction paul has in mind in rom 9:

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Its the greek word
apōleia:
1) destroying, utter destruction

a) of vessels

2) a perishing, ruin, destruction

a) of money

b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell


 
My mischaracterizing my attitude as one of superiority. That's antithetical to Reformed Theology.

Well maybe if you would stop making comments about my interpretation being POOR, then I wouldn't assume that you believe that your interpretation is superior..

To be clear, I don't believe you are a universalist, but the way you are misusing scripture you make yourself look like one, or at least that you lean that way (IMO). When the scripture says "all men" we should look at the context to ensure we're getting the actual meaning of the writer, should we not? It's not right to take a wooden literalistic view of pet scriptures to support self-serving doctines (IMO).

Ok, so are you telling me that ALL MEN are not condemned according to Romans 5:18 ?
 
even:

Ok, so are you telling me that ALL MEN are not condemned according to Romans 5:18 ?

No they are not. The men whom Christ died for are not condemned, because their legal condemnation Christ took it away..If Christ died for elect individuals over 2000 yrs ago, how in the world are they born condemned ? The only thing that condemned them is the Law of God, for the Law of God is the strength of sin 1 cor 15:

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

But all for whom Christ died are dead to the Law Rom 7:

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;

The body of Christ here means His Death ..

So all those Christ died for are born dead to the Law, it has no dominion over them, even while they are dead in sin..

Paul says of the elect, even while we are enemies, we have been reconciled to God ! How ? By the Death of His Son or by the Body of Christ. Rom 5:

10For if, when we were enemies [In Adam], we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
 
even:

No they are not. The men whom Christ died for are not condemned,


You are still confused with Romans 5 and fail to see the comparison of "the lesser to greater" between Adam and the Lord. According to you, you have inverted Paul by placing Adam in the place of the "greater", since Adam's sin was UNIVERSALLY APPLIED, while, according to you, Christ's work of redemption was LIMITED...

the depths that Calvinism must go to...
 
even:

No they are not. The men whom Christ died for are not condemned, because their legal condemnation Christ took it away..If Christ died for elect individuals over 2000 yrs ago, how in the world are they born condemned ?

Think of it this way..

There's the FLESH and there's the SPIRIT...

We were all born naturally through our parents according to the flesh... and this nature is corrupted according to deceitful lusts as the bible says... and that's why everyone needs to be born again according to the SPIRIT..

Didn't you need to be born again...?

And if your flesh is not condemned, then why is it dying like the rest of the people in the world.. ?

How about after you're saved SBG... is it your OLD MAN (old nature) which is justified before God or is it the life of Christ in you.. the new man..?
 
Think of it this way..

There's the FLESH and there's the SPIRIT...

We were all born naturally through our parents according to the flesh... and this nature is corrupted according to deceitful lusts as the bible says... and that's why everyone needs to be born again according to the SPIRIT..

Didn't you need to be born again...?

And if your flesh is not condemned, then why is it dying like the rest of the people in the world.. ?

How about after you're saved SBG... is it your OLD MAN (old nature) which is justified before God or is it the life of Christ in you.. the new man..?

The men whom Christ died for are not condemned, because their legal condemnation Christ took it away..
 
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