romans 9 study

[Drew]

Maybe in your theology faith in God is not necessary for salvation, but according to the Bible it is. Pharaoh's actions were antithetical to faith in God.

Of course, I never posted anything that would lead you to conclude that "God is not necessary for salvation". And I certainly never denied that "Pharaoh's actions were antithetical to faith in God".

I merely made a Biblically supported argument that Paul's assertion about Pharoah's election was not an assertion about election to an eternal destiny, but to his (Pharoah's) resisting the departure of the Israelites from Egypt.

 

[Drew]

Straw man (again). I believe in it, just not your poor interpretation o fit. The Bible makes it perfectly clear that all mean are not going to be saved.

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. - Mat. 7:13

Let's be careful here. Yes, Jesus clearly states that many will go the path to destruction. But this does not necessarily mean that any are pre-destined to such a fate. Jesus could be read as asserting that "many will freely reject salvation".

 

[childeye]

Let's be careful here. Yes, Jesus clearly states that many will go the path to destruction. But this does not necessarily mean that any are pre-destined to such a fate. Jesus could be read as asserting that "many will freely reject salvation".

I would say that comparing the Truth to the lies is like comparing the Love of God to the Love of a rabid dog. Therefore I cannot comprehend how anyone having seen the Truth would freely reject it. More likely, God is sifting the Spiritual elements and taking out the trash in vessels ordained for destruction. I'm referring to the Lake of fire.

Apart from that, those on the wide road headed for destruction may not be the destruction referred to as in the lake of fire. It may be a destruction in their present lives.

 

[Drew]

I would say that comparing the Truth to the lies is like comparing the Love of God to the Love of a rabid dog. Therefore I cannot comprehend how anyone having seen the Truth would freely reject it. More likely, God is sifting the Spiritual elements and taking out the trash in vessels ordained for destruction. I'm referring to the Lake of fire.

I agree that it seems hard to understand why any would freely reject the message of salvation.

But I am operating from the Biblical perspective, not what seems sensible to me. And I certainly see no evidence that, in Romans 9 in particular, any theology of election of persons to an eternal fate is being put forward.

Romans 9 is an argument about Israel, and her role in relation to salvation of Gentiles. It is not an argument about how God elects some to heaven and some to hell.

 

[childeye]

I agree that it seems hard to understand why any would freely reject the message of salvation.

But I am operating from the Biblical perspective, not what seems sensible to me. And I certainly see no evidence that, in Romans 9 in particular, any theology of election of persons to an eternal fate is being put forward.

Romans 9 is an argument about Israel, and her role in relation to salvation of Gentiles. It is not an argument about how God elects some to heaven and some to hell.

I agree. For Esau said to God wherein did you love me? And God answered, in that I loved Jacob. As we know, this implies Esau faired better by Jacob receiving the blessing than he probably would have faired if he had received it. So God has his reason to harden whom He hardens and to whom He shows mercy. And that reason will in the end glorify Him as soveriegn over that which He creates.

 

[Drew]

The Pharoah account in Romans 9 is the last “example†of God’s election before we are presented with the famous potter metaphor. Note how Paul’s words suggest that he sees the potter metaphor as being the generalization of the Pharaoh example:

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? ….

I suggest that it is self-evident that the potter metaphor serves as the generalization of the preceding examples of election, and most certainly of the Pharoah account in particular. This is especially true given Paul’s use of the hardening concept – a concept which has rather obvious connections to the idea of a potter fashioning pots. We should therefore be able to analyze the specifics of the generalization step. It will be shown that such an analysis works strongly against the commonly held position that the potter metaphor deals with the election of individuals to an eternal destiny and, instead supports the hypothesis that Paul uses the potter metaphor to express the idea that God has hardened the nation of Israel specifically to bring in a new covenant, open to both Jew and Gentile.

Consider the following:

1. The purpose of the hardening of Pharoah is stated as demonstrating the power of God to the whole world. The obvious generalization: the potter metaphor, whatever it is really about, should capture the idea that what God is doing with the pot should demonstrate God’s power to the world. The standard “pre-destination of individuals†position does not achieve this – there is no sensible way to see how the pre-destining of some to loss will demonstrate God’s power to the world. More specifically, there is no way for “the world†to “witness†pre-destination decisions made at the beginning of time. And even if they could, it is hard to understand how predestining some to loss and some to life demonstrates God’s power anymore than pre-destining all to life, or, for that matter, all to loss. By contrast, the hardening of Israel to bring about the ingathering of the Gentiles (and the non-hardened Jewish remnant) does indeed demonstrate God’s power to the world. Such a scenario is something worked out in history that comes to a climax at the cross (Paul clearly sees the cross as bringing about the ingathering of the Gentiles) It is not a decision made at the foundation of the world – something that the world simply cannot witness.

2. Closely related to point 1, we have the fact that the hardening of Pharaoh is part of an unfolding history of God working in the world of human affairs. We should therefore expect that the potter metaphor, whatever it is really about, should involve God doing something in human history. As should already be clear, God’s pre-destination of people at the beginning of time does not have this property, whereas the view I am endorsing does.

3. While Paul does not directly assert this here, we all know that the delivery of the Jews from the clutches of Pharoah is the archetypical redemption scenario – God acts in such a manner as to rescue His people from exile. Once more, a “pre-destination of individuals to eternal fates†take on the potter metaphor does not manifest the general feature of redemptive action – in pre-destining people at the beginning of time, there is no narrative, no exile, and no slot for redemptive action. If the potter metaphor is about God hardening Israel to effect the in-gathering of the Gentiles and to bring a Jewish remnant out of exile, then we have precisely this feature of redemption as per the story of the exodus.

In conclusion, when we analyze the generalizations that Paul should be making (if he is a competent writer) as he moves from the specificities of the Pharoah account to the generality of the potter metaphor, we find that the “pre-destination of individuals†interpretation does not map well to the relevant generalizations. By contrast, a view where the potter metaphor is about God hardening Israel to create a new covenant family manifests all the relevant generalizations: God acts in human history, He does so in a way that can be seen by all the world, and He is involved in a specific act of redemption.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Individual election cont

If we notice the First chapter of 1 cor, we plainly see that Paul during His evangelistic campaign unto them, that He preached election or being chosen, or being one of the called in His gospel.

24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29That no flesh should glory in his presence.


If recalled peter too when preaching his first sermon, the spiritual benefits of them that are called of God acts 2:

39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Those called there and in 1 cor 1 is referring to those chosen and predestinated by God in eternity past eph 1:4-5, and being called by Him in the New Covenant age rom 1:6; 1 cor 1:9,24 and heb 9:15. This call in time is the commencement of them being conformed into the image of Christ rom 8:28-29 and romans 9:

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[Eventide]

In conclusion, when we analyze the generalizations that Paul should be making (if he is a competent writer) as he moves from the specificities of the Pharoah account to the generality of the potter metaphor, we find that the “pre-destination of individuals†interpretation does not map well to the relevant generalizations. By contrast, a view where the potter metaphor is about God hardening Israel to create a new covenant family manifests all the relevant generalizations: God acts in human history, He does so in a way that can be seen by all the world, and He is involved in a specific act of redemption

AMEN Drew..

 

[RoadDebris]

Of course, I never posted anything that would lead you to conclude that "God is not necessary for salvation". And I certainly never denied that "Pharaoh's actions were antithetical to faith in God".

I merely made a Biblically supported argument that Paul's assertion about Pharoah's election was not an assertion about election to an eternal destiny, but to his (Pharoah's) resisting the departure of the Israelites from Egypt.

That's contradictory, Drew. We know form Romans that those who were saved before Christ came were saved by the same thing that saved those after He came; grace through faith in the Messiah. Pharaoh had no faith in the Messiah.

 

[RoadDebris]

Let's be careful here. Yes, Jesus clearly states that many will go the path to destruction. But this does not necessarily mean that any are pre-destined to such a fate. Jesus could be read as asserting that "many will freely reject salvation".

But God the Holy Spirit spells it out in Romans. All men are predestined; the saved have their will changed to be inclined toward God and the damned do not.

 

[RoadDebris]

OK, so will you give us your interpretation of Rom 5:18 now ?

Christ died for us in spite of our lack of merit. He sacrificed himself because of our absolute lack of merit.

 

[RoadDebris]

You believe that the elect were never under God's legal condemnation ?

I think we're trying to fit God, a being not subject to time, into our finite box. Was I born a sinner? Yes. Was there ever any chance that I would stay that way? No. In fact, there is no such thing as chance, except as a concept to describe our ignorance of future events.

 

[Eventide]

Christ died for us in spite of our lack of merit. He sacrificed himself because of our absolute lack of merit.

So this is your superior interpretation ?

You didn't glean any other facts from Rom 5:18... like for example how every man in Adam is under condemnation..?

Every last one..?

I wouldn't think that Calvinists would understand that part.. ya know, being the elect and all..

 

[RoadDebris]

So this is your superior interpretation ?

You didn't glean any other facts from Rom 5:18... like for example how every man in Adam is under condemnation..?

Every last one..?

I wouldn't think that Calvinists would understand that part.. ya know, being the elect and all..

For the record, I don't claim "superior" interpretive skills. I'm not a theologian. I'm the typical "Joe Sixpack"; just an average guy. No need to feel insecure on my behalf, Even.

As to Adam, you asked about v.8 specifically. Yes, all men are born fallen. We're all born sinners. That's why every man invariably sins.

 

[Drew]

That's contradictory, Drew. We know form Romans that those who were saved before Christ came were saved by the same thing that saved those after He came; grace through faith in the Messiah. Pharaoh had no faith in the Messiah.

Again, this is all true, but contradicts nothing that I have posted.

The arguments I have provided remain unchallenged - while Pharaoh was indeed "elected" to something, the Romans 9 text never suggests he was elected to eternal loss - the text instead shows that Pharoah was elected to resist the exodus.

 

[Eventide]

For the record, I don't claim "superior" interpretive skills. I'm not a theologian. I'm the typical "Joe Sixpack"; just an average guy. No need to feel insecure on my behalf, Even.

Well I simply figured that if you called my interpretation POOR... then obviously yours must be SUPERIOR to that.. unless you think that your opinion is poorer than mine..?

As to Adam, you asked about v.8 specifically. Yes, all men are born fallen. We're all born sinners. That's why every man invariably sins.

I was talking about Romans 5:18, not verse 8... where it plainly teaches that ALL in Adam are under condemnation.. and that all are justified freely in Christ.. the Last Adam...

0 elected in Adam..

ALL elected in Christ, the Last Adam..

 

[RoadDebris]

Well I simply figured...

You simply figured on mischaracterizing my statement, thus my continued admonishments about your lack of intellectual honesty.

I was talking about Romans 5:18, not verse 8... where it plainly teaches that ALL in Adam are under condemnation.. and that all are justified freely in Christ.. the Last Adam...

My mistake. On v. 18, to say He's saying that all men will be saved is to make the Bible contradict itself. He's making a parallel argument.

 

[RoadDebris]

Again, this is all true, but contradicts nothing that I have posted.

The arguments I have provided remain unchallenged - while Pharaoh was indeed "elected" to something, the Romans 9 text never suggests he was elected to eternal loss - the text instead shows that Pharoah was elected to resist the exodus.

Since the exodus is part of the theme of the Bible (i.e. the Messiah), Pharaohs opposition to it makes his position pretty obvious, especially in light of Romans 9.

 

[Drew]

Since the exodus is part of the theme of the Bible (i.e. the Messiah), Pharaohs opposition to it makes his position pretty obvious, especially in light of Romans 9.

I am not sure how this undermines my argument. I have shown that, in the Pharoah example, Paul takes the reader specifically to texts in the Old Testament that deal, not with "eternal destiny", but rather with Pharoah being chosen to resist the exodus. This is the text that Paul quotes

16 But I have raised you up [a] for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. 17 You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go. 18

I am simply taking Paul seriously, if he tells us that the choice God made in respect to Pharoah had to do with his (Pharaoh's) resisting of the exodus, I will believe him.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Since the exodus is part of the theme of the Bible (i.e. the Messiah), Pharaohs opposition to it makes his position pretty obvious, especially in light of Romans 9.

Pharoah's destruction with his army is typical of that destruction of The People of God's enemies and their salvation through Christ rev 15:

2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.


3And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Lets look at the content of the Song in the exodous passage ex 15, Just a few verses because its very long :


1Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.

2The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

3The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

4Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.

5The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.

6Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

So, the adopting of Pharoah by the inspired Apostle does indicate salvaic significance. It does not matter what pharoahs personal fate was as far as if he is going to heaven or hell, we do know that he was designed by God for destruction, as all the enemies of God and His people are.

BTW, The True Saints will Praise God in the end for the destruction of the reprobates of mankind even though they are our fellow creatures now.

Remember the souls under the altar ? rev 6:

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Notice that these perfected holy souls do not ask the Lord to forgive these wicked men, or do they desire their salvation from God's wrath and they receive no rebuke for that..