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romans 9 study

fran:

since Adam's sin was UNIVERSALLY APPLIED, while, according to you, Christ's work of redemption was LIMITED...

Adam's sin was applied to all who was in Adam and sinned in Him because He was their Head, so likewise, Christ righteiusness was applied to all who was in Him because He was their Head. So Christ work and effects were limited to His seed in Him..And Christ work is universally applied because His seed in Him was not limited to ethnic jews, but men and women throughout the world.
 
fran:

Adam's sin was applied to all who was in Adam and sinned in Him because He was their Head, so likewise, Christ righteiusness was applied to all who was in Him because He was their Head. So Christ work and effects were limited to His seed in Him..And Christ work is universally applied because His seed in Him was not limited to ethnic jews, but men and women throughout the world.

Christ died while we were yet sinners. ALL of us. There is no distinction made by Paul. He doesn't speak of special selection here. Christ did not die for a randomly selected lot of people who were sinners JUST AS MUCH AS any other person. He died for ALL sinners, since ALL were in sin. You are distorting the passage and intent of Romans 5.

Read your last sentence again. You are onto something...

Yes, Christ's work is universally applied. ALL MEN... It is an entirely different story of whether those men ACCEPT that work.

Regards
 
fran:

Christ died while we were yet sinners. ALL of us

But He only died for the elect rom 8:

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Thats who paul is referring to in rom 5:8

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Paul knew He was an elect, and He was writing to believers of like precious faith Rom 1:

8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

For you to apply Rom 5 8 beyond the Household of Faith is pure presumption and without biblical support..its called wretcing the scripture..




 
fran:

But He only died for the elect rom 8:

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

My friend, Christ died for sinners, and everyone of us were sinners. The elect were also sinners.

Your verses speak of people AFTER they come to Christ, once they accept their election chronologically in time. Once forgiven of sin, once in Christ, WHO can separate us from Christ? It has nothing to do with WHOM Christ died for, since Paul already stated that Christ's work is GREATER than Adam's, and just as universally applied, available to ALL sinners...

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Us meaning everyone, since everyone was "yet sinners".

Are you saying that Christ's death was only good enough for a limited number of people, and that while He was forgiving those who nailed Him to the Cross, He really didn't intend on forgiving them, DYING for them???

I'm sorry, but this makes very little sense.

Paul knew He was an elect, and He was writing to believers of like precious faith Rom 1:

The elect are those of the Church, those God predestined to accept the freely-offered redemption, universally offered to all men, all sinners.

Rom 1:8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

How does this have anything to do with the subject? This "faith spoken of" is a result of accepting Jesus Christ' redemption offered to all men who hear the Gospel. Paul and Peter didn't gather only "the elect" into a bible study and explain the mystery of Jesus Christ. Some heard the Word and accepted it (the elect) while others heard the Word and rejected it. Redemption was available to both groups. Nowhere in Scriptures does it say that the Apostles gathered the elect, and then preach to them ONLY, and ONLY THOSE would become baptized, ignoring the non-elect.

Regards
 
fran:

My friend, Christ died for sinners

Well since the elect are sinners by nature, I agree, but the non elect are sinners too, whom Christ did not die for, no scripture can prove that He did. All the epistles are written to believers..
 
fran:



Well since the elect are sinners by nature, I agree, but the non elect are sinners too, whom Christ did not die for, no scripture can prove that He did. All the epistles are written to believers..

Circular argument alert...

There are plenty of Scriptures that say He died for the sins of the world. You have been told, but you refuse to believe the Scriptures.
 
even:

Then why are they all dying according to the flesh SBG.. ?

To experience the resurrection life of Christ, there is no condemnation in the death of the elect, none whatsoever.. Condemnation is only by the Law of God, the Law of God has no dominion over anyone that Christ died for. What I mean by dominion, is that it cannot condemn anyone Christ died for, for Christ has already bore its condemnation in their behalf.


How come, if they're not condemned in the flesh along with every other person in Adam..?

Everyone in Adam, whom Adam was made a Head to, are not the same as everyone who were in Christ, whom Christ was made a Head to. Christ was only made a Head to His Church

Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.

The Church which Christ was the Head of before the world began, it fell in Adam, the condemnation She incurred in Her fall in Adam, was laid upon Christ her Head, not upon her, though she deserved it.

Now, I have already discussed these issues in other threads, if you wanna no more about them look at those threads, I spent time explaining the very things you are inquiring about already.

Here is one such thread:

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/eternal-union-christ-his-children-27246/
 
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even:



To experience the resurrection life of Christ, there is no condemnation in the death of the elect, none whatsoever.. Condemnation is only by the Law of God, the Law of God has no dominion over anyone that Christ died for. What I mean by dominion, is that it cannot condemn anyone Christ died for, for Christ has already bore its condemnation in their behalf.




Everyone in Adam, whom Adam was made a Head to, are not the same as everyone who were in Christ, whom Christ was made a Head to. Christ was only made a Head to His Church

Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.

The Church which Christ was the Head of before the world began, it fell in Adam, the condemnation She incurred in Her fall in Adam, was laid upon Christ her Head, not upon her, though she deserved it.

Now, I have already discussed these issues in other threads, if you wanna no more about them look at those threads, I spent time explaining the very things you are inquiring about already.

Here is one such thread:

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/eternal-union-christ-his-children-27246/

So let me ask this.. since you believe that our old nature is not condemned.. why does Paul tell us to put off the old man who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts, and to put on the Lord Jesus Christ..?

Why does the Lord say that if any man comes after Him, that they must deny themseives, take up their cross, and follow Him.. ?

How come ? If they're not condemned already..?
 
fran:

You wanna argue, but the Truth has been shown to you, you cannot receive it, thats fine..

I want to argue? You are the one keeping these threads going endlessly, when you have been shown Scriptures that speak of Christ sent for the sake of the world, being the Lamb of God who died for the sake of the world, and other such verses.

You missed the bus on "truth" on this subject and refuse to admit it...

But hey, maybe you can get this to a 2000 post thread of endless ramblings...
 
Yes but I'm talking about the FIRST part of the verse... not the second part..

Now according to the first part, where it says that by the offense of one, condemnation has come upon all men..

How do you interpret that part..

All who live physically inherit the fall.
 
All who live physically inherit the fall.

ok, I can see that in there... where it says that condemnation has come upon all men.. and that's the point, all in Adam (in the flesh) are condemned... that's what the bible teaches... even after we're saved it's not our old life which is justified before God but rather the life of Christ in us.

Thats why you and I are not the elect, and that Christ is.
 
even:

why does Paul tell us to put off the old man who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts

Because its sinful, not condemned. Christ bore the condemnation of the sinful sinner. Its legally dead..When Christ comes again, the body of flesh shall be changed and made incorruptible, that shows its not condemned.
 
Gods sixfold Testimony in rom 9 -



In romans 9 God gives us a sixfold testimony of His Sovereignty over who receives His Salvation !

1st Isaac and Ishmael rom 9:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

God determined who was the child of promise, heir of salvation.

2nd Jacob and Esau rom 9:

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


God made clear who received His elective Love !

Thirdly. Gods words to Moses rom 9:

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Paul teaches about the mercy of salvation Titus 3:5

Fourth the example of Pharaoh Rom 9:

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

That is why the reprobates are born !

Fifth, The potter and the clay Rom 9:

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Notice, He is speaking of individuals, one vessel ! God makes each individual vessel unto its predetermined destiny.

And sixth the breaking off of National Israel for the inclusion of the gentiles Rom 9:

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. [ Note: Paul applies this prophecy to the calling of the gentiles]

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Salvation is not determined by the will of men rom 9:

16 So then it is not of him[Individual] that willeth, nor of him[the individual] that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Salvation for each individual is determined by the will of God, His will determined before the world began, and not based on what He saw of mens actions, bad or good rom 9:

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )
 
fran:



Yeah, thats all you wanna do. You have been shown your presumption and error.

:lol

Whatever...

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. 1 John 2:2

Not just "ours", the saved, living in the Church John writes to, but the world... The WHOLE world...

But why bother posting this the 10th or so time, it falls on deaf ears, anyways...
 
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even:



Because its sinful, not condemned. Christ bore the condemnation of the sinful sinner. Its legally dead..When Christ comes again, the body of flesh shall be changed and made incorruptible, that shows its not condemned.

So then Romans 5:18 should read that by the offense of one, condemnation has come upon most men...

Is that right..? Should we change the word of God to align with your belief here..?
 
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