Sacraments...Does your church respect them?

[thessalonian]

Of course you believe your interpretations are correct and so does Heidi and Vic and Solo and Sputnik and on and on and on. Yet you all disagree on significant issues. You both of course cannot be right and it is just as possible you are both wrong on some of these issues.

What "GOD HAS JOINED" is unscriptural? There is something deeper in marriage than just a man and woman agreeing to live in the same house and produce offspring. God gives grace to marriage, otherwise they would fail. That is a grace that is not available to single people. Do you deny that there is grace in marriage that helps keep the family together and growing in holiness?

What is grace by the way? Is it just God being nice and overlooking somethings or is it the power of the Holy Spirit working inside the believer to bring about the good that God desires for them? All is grace. The food we eat is natural grace. The events in our lives that draw us toward God before we know him is grace. The people who preceeded us bringing about our liv3es is grace. If any of this is not grace then God does not do it all. Yet God works through his creatures. That seems to be the thing that Protestants most often miss. He worked through my mother and father to bring about my birth. That is significant to my salvation and so it is grace. We are saved by grace alone! Grace is God working in our lives daily. Not just a one time shot when we say a sinners prayer.

You of course believe that you are right with how you see the Bible. Solo thinks he is infallible about it all and he does not agree with you in many things. These facts don't seem to bother protestants much. And then they start talking about lists of things that are neccessary for salvatoin and they disagree with eachotehr on the proper list of things neccessary. Everyone disagreeing and asserting themselves as having the Bible right. The Catholic Church has taught the same thing for 2000 years. The baptists are a 19th century Johnny come lately Church. "trust not in your own understanding" Chris. Christ left a Church to teach you. Do not resist it.

 

[Solo]

Thessalonian,
You really ought to stop the false witness against other members of this forum. You have no idea what unity or differences those believers that you disagree with have. Your position on grace, faith, justification, authority, salvation, intercession, mediation, saints, sanctification, glorification, etc. are all unscriptural. On these points, Vic, Nocturnal_Principle_X, Heidi, and I agree. I have not come to a conclusion on whether Sputnik is born again or not. I do not believe that you have been born again, as you continue to believe the false teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. You have not given a testimony of being born again, other than you were baptized in the Roman Catholic Church. I am here to tell you that that is not enough to become a born again, on your way into the Kingdom of God. Why, there is not a Roman Catholic alive that knows for sure whether they have eternal life, for they have not yet participated in their last crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ for their sins via the idol worship Eucharist.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

The Catholic Church has taught the same thing for 2000 years. The baptists are a 19th century Johnny come lately Church. "trust not in your own understanding" Chris. Christ left a Church to teach you. Do not resist it.

Thessalonian,

It appears you misunderstand my position. I agree there marriage is something much deeper in marriage “than just a man and woman agreeing to live in the same house and produce offspring.†The part I quoted, that you stated, sounds an lot like the contractual model that many in American today believe in. My position, which is called the Covenant, holds that marriage is a creation ordinance and is covenantal bond between a man, a woman, and God. In other words marriage, according to my view, is under the control of Godâ€â€not the Church (which is what the Sacramental model states).

I do not deny “that there is grace in marriage that helps keep the family together and growing in holiness?†What I disagree with is the belief that marriage imparts any degree of salvation. Salvation, as I stated before (which is supported by Scriptureâ€â€read Galatians, and Ephesians) only comes through faith in Jesus Christ. So as far as marriage and God’s grace are concerned I agree but as far as God’s salvation and marriage I do not agree.

You of course believe that you are right with how you see the Bible. Solo thinks he is infallible about it all and he does not agree with you in many things. These facts don't seem to bother protestants much. And then they start talking about lists of things that are necessary for salvation and they disagree with each other on the proper list of things necessary. Everyone disagreeing and asserting themselves as having the Bible right. The Catholic Church has taught the same thing for 2000 years. The Baptists are a 19th century Johnny come lately Church. "trust not in your own understanding" Chris. Christ left a Church to teach you. Do not resist it.

Well, the same can be said about you thessalonian even if you don’t want to admit that. You perhaps base your understanding on what the Church says or your presuppositions. Perhaps I do that same. In any event I don’t see a whole lot of biblical evidence that supports the Sacramental model of marriage or that any other sacrament imparts any degree of salvation on those who partake of them. If you, or anyone, provides me with clear biblical evidence (not church tradition or apocryphal text) that supports the Catholic stance on marriage and the other sacraments then I will change my beliefs.

As for this particular statement:

The Catholic Church has taught the same thing for 2000 years. The baptists are a 19th century Johnny come lately Church.

So what, it can be argued, and I believe quite well, that the many of the things taught by the Roman Catholic Church are contrary to what the church fathers believed.

I agree I should not rely on my own understand, I ask the same of you (of course in your case it might be necessary to ask you to not rely on the understanding of the church either). In any event every belief that I hold is both prayerfully considered and examined and considered with what the Bible has to say on the subject. In other words if what I believe does not line up with what Scripture says I throw it out.