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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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L
lily of God
Guest
cybershark5886 said:
What do you mean by this?
S
Solo
Guest
How Do the Sacraments Function in the Life
of a Catholic Believer? - Part 1
by Dr. John Ankerberg, Dr. John Weldon
The sacraments of Catholicism involve particular spiritual activities/responsibilities partaken of by believers, such as penance and the holy Eucharist. The sacraments are presided over by a Catholic priest who acts as a mediator between God and man. These special activities are said to dispense God’s "grace" (here, as a spiritual substance or power) and God’s favor.
As we examine the sacraments we will see that they are viewed as necessary to salvationâ€â€and that, therefore, Rome teaches a salvation based on both faith and works.
In contrast to Protestantism, which accepts two sacraments (baptism and communion), Roman Catholicism teaches there are seven sacraments, all of which are believed to have been instituted by Jesus Christ. The seven sacraments are baptism, the Holy Eucharist, penance, matrimony, anointing of the sick, confirmation, and holy orders.
Rome’s sevenfold sacramental system was apparently initiated for the first time in the twelfth century and made an article of faith in the fifteenth century. (This means that for over one thousand years, Christians were not required to accept the current sacramental system, which Rome maintains is necessary for salvation.) Nevertheless today, "For the Roman Catholic his whole life from the cradle to the grave, and indeed beyond the grave in purgatory, is conditioned by the sacramental approach."1 Thus, understanding the sacraments in Catholicism is essential to understanding Catholicism itself.
The results of each of the sacraments may be summarized below:
This may help us understand why Rome teaches it is the only true Church. Also, it will help us comprehend the historic position of Rome that salvation is only possible in Catholicismâ€â€because apart from the sacraments of Rome, a person cannot be saved. In other words, if salvation comes only through the means of grace dispensed by the priest through the sacramentsâ€â€then logically, a person who does not partake of the sacraments cannot be saved.10
A standard Catholic text, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, while conceding that God can communicate grace without the sacraments, nevertheless asserts, "The sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for the salvation of mankind." And, "The sacraments are the means appointed by God for the attainment of eternal salvation. Three of them [baptism, penance, holy orders] are in the ordinary way of salvation so necessary that without their use salvation cannot be attained."11
The Catholic Encyclopedia discusses the nature and functions of the sacraments as follows:
Through the sacraments, "...internal grace is that received in the interior of the soul, enabling us to act supernaturally."13 Further, "The supernatural gift of God infused into the very essence of the soul as a habit is habitual grace. This grace is also called sanctifying or justifying grace, because it is included in both.... The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, C.11) declares the teaching: ‘If anyone should say that men are justified either by the imputation of Christ’s justice alone or by the remission of sins alone.... let him be anathema.’"14
Finally, the sacraments dispense grace merely by the performance of the rite itself or ex opere operato; however, to be functional the sacrament must be received by a Catholic in the necessary moral condition.
Thus, the real difference between the Protestant and Catholic view of sacraments is not in the number of sacraments, two vs. seven. Rather, it is in what the sacraments are believed to do: in their meaning and purpose. Protestantism sees both baptism and confirmation primarily as symbols and/or memorials of vital theological truths. Baptism, e.g., symbolizes the believer’s death to his old life and resurrection to new life in Jesus Christ. Communion commemorates the death of Christ for our sinsâ€â€and also reminds the believer that not only did Christ die for all the believer’s sin, but He rose from the dead as proof of the believer’s justification before God (Romans 4:25). But Catholicism sees the sacraments as actually changing a person inwardly, almost as if through a continual form of regeneration and spiritual empowerment. In Protestantism a sacrament underscores a promise of God; in Catholicism it is an outward sign of an actual infused grace or spiritual power.
In other words, the sacraments infuse a special grace into the soul of a Catholic in order to meet a special needâ€â€they are therefore an outward sign of an infused grace. This explains why the basis for a doctrine like justification in Catholic theology is not the fact of Christ’s righteousness being imputed (reckoned) to a believer solely by faith. Rather, it is the fact thatâ€â€through the sacramentsâ€â€Christ’s righteousness is infused into our very being so that we progressively become more and more righteousâ€â€and on that basisâ€â€the fact we have actual righteousness nowâ€â€we are declared "righteous." Thus, in Catholicism justification occurs primarily by means of the sacramentsâ€â€not by faith alone.
Retrieved from http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/roman ... 1102W3.htm
NOTES Available at http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/roman ... 1102W3.htm
of a Catholic Believer? - Part 1
by Dr. John Ankerberg, Dr. John Weldon
The sacraments of Catholicism involve particular spiritual activities/responsibilities partaken of by believers, such as penance and the holy Eucharist. The sacraments are presided over by a Catholic priest who acts as a mediator between God and man. These special activities are said to dispense God’s "grace" (here, as a spiritual substance or power) and God’s favor.
As we examine the sacraments we will see that they are viewed as necessary to salvationâ€â€and that, therefore, Rome teaches a salvation based on both faith and works.
In contrast to Protestantism, which accepts two sacraments (baptism and communion), Roman Catholicism teaches there are seven sacraments, all of which are believed to have been instituted by Jesus Christ. The seven sacraments are baptism, the Holy Eucharist, penance, matrimony, anointing of the sick, confirmation, and holy orders.
Rome’s sevenfold sacramental system was apparently initiated for the first time in the twelfth century and made an article of faith in the fifteenth century. (This means that for over one thousand years, Christians were not required to accept the current sacramental system, which Rome maintains is necessary for salvation.) Nevertheless today, "For the Roman Catholic his whole life from the cradle to the grave, and indeed beyond the grave in purgatory, is conditioned by the sacramental approach."1 Thus, understanding the sacraments in Catholicism is essential to understanding Catholicism itself.
The results of each of the sacraments may be summarized below:
- 1. Baptism (which is not repeated) cleanses from original sin, removes other sin and its punishment, provides justification in an initial form, spiritual rebirth (John 3:3) or regeneration and is "necessary for salvation."2
2. Confirmation (not repeated) bestows the Holy Spirit in a special sense leading to "an increase of sanctifying grace and the gifts of the Holy Spirit" as well as other spiritual power and a sealing to the Catholic Church.3 (In a sense, the larger process of justification begins at confirmation because justification cannot begin prior to faith which is defined as "man’s assent to revealed [i.e., Catholic] truth," nor can it occur before baptism.4)
3. Penance removes the penalty of sins committed after baptism and confirmation. Thus, mortal or "deadly" sins are remitted and the "justification" lost by such sins is restored as a continuing process.5
4. Holy Eucharist is where Christ is re-sacrificed or "re-presented" and the benefits of Calvary are continually applied anew to the believer.6 This occurs at the Mass.
5. Marriage is where grace is given to remain in the bonds of matrimony in dictates with the requirements of the Catholic Church.7
6. Anointing the sick (formerly extreme unction) bestows grace on those who are sick, old or near death and helps in forgiveness of sins and sometimes the physical healing of the body.8
7. Holy orders (not repeated) confers special grace and spiritual power upon bishops, priests and deacons for leadership in the Church as representatives of Christ "for all eternity": "Holy Orders is the Sacrament of the New Law instituted by Christ, through which spiritual power is given together with the grace to exercise properly the respective office. The sacrament gives a permanent character, meaning that it cannot be repeated, and that it ordains one for all eternity."9
This may help us understand why Rome teaches it is the only true Church. Also, it will help us comprehend the historic position of Rome that salvation is only possible in Catholicismâ€â€because apart from the sacraments of Rome, a person cannot be saved. In other words, if salvation comes only through the means of grace dispensed by the priest through the sacramentsâ€â€then logically, a person who does not partake of the sacraments cannot be saved.10
A standard Catholic text, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, while conceding that God can communicate grace without the sacraments, nevertheless asserts, "The sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for the salvation of mankind." And, "The sacraments are the means appointed by God for the attainment of eternal salvation. Three of them [baptism, penance, holy orders] are in the ordinary way of salvation so necessary that without their use salvation cannot be attained."11
The Catholic Encyclopedia discusses the nature and functions of the sacraments as follows:
- It is necessary to set forth the essential elements of a sacrament. These are: (a) a sensible sign instituted by God, which gives sanctifying grace; (b) both matter and form present with each sacrament; the matter is the material used, the form the accompanying words and action; and (c) a minister, someone authorized to give the sacrament with the intention of doing what the Church intends.... the sacraments produce grace.... Sanctifying grace is given by reason of the rite itself (ex opere operato), and grace is not given if the sacrament if not received with the necessary moral disposition. In addition, each sacrament confers a special grace, called sacramental grace. As defined by the Council of Trent, it is the teaching of the Catholic Church, that every one of the sacraments of the New Law was instituted by Christ.... Vatican II declares: "The purpose of the sacraments is to sanctify men, to build up the body of Christ, and finally to give worship to God. Because they are signs they also instruct."12
Through the sacraments, "...internal grace is that received in the interior of the soul, enabling us to act supernaturally."13 Further, "The supernatural gift of God infused into the very essence of the soul as a habit is habitual grace. This grace is also called sanctifying or justifying grace, because it is included in both.... The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, C.11) declares the teaching: ‘If anyone should say that men are justified either by the imputation of Christ’s justice alone or by the remission of sins alone.... let him be anathema.’"14
Finally, the sacraments dispense grace merely by the performance of the rite itself or ex opere operato; however, to be functional the sacrament must be received by a Catholic in the necessary moral condition.
Thus, the real difference between the Protestant and Catholic view of sacraments is not in the number of sacraments, two vs. seven. Rather, it is in what the sacraments are believed to do: in their meaning and purpose. Protestantism sees both baptism and confirmation primarily as symbols and/or memorials of vital theological truths. Baptism, e.g., symbolizes the believer’s death to his old life and resurrection to new life in Jesus Christ. Communion commemorates the death of Christ for our sinsâ€â€and also reminds the believer that not only did Christ die for all the believer’s sin, but He rose from the dead as proof of the believer’s justification before God (Romans 4:25). But Catholicism sees the sacraments as actually changing a person inwardly, almost as if through a continual form of regeneration and spiritual empowerment. In Protestantism a sacrament underscores a promise of God; in Catholicism it is an outward sign of an actual infused grace or spiritual power.
In other words, the sacraments infuse a special grace into the soul of a Catholic in order to meet a special needâ€â€they are therefore an outward sign of an infused grace. This explains why the basis for a doctrine like justification in Catholic theology is not the fact of Christ’s righteousness being imputed (reckoned) to a believer solely by faith. Rather, it is the fact thatâ€â€through the sacramentsâ€â€Christ’s righteousness is infused into our very being so that we progressively become more and more righteousâ€â€and on that basisâ€â€the fact we have actual righteousness nowâ€â€we are declared "righteous." Thus, in Catholicism justification occurs primarily by means of the sacramentsâ€â€not by faith alone.
Retrieved from http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/roman ... 1102W3.htm
NOTES Available at http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/roman ... 1102W3.htm
S
Solo
Guest
How Do The Sacraments Function in the Life of a Catholic Believer? -- Part 2
by Dr. John Ankerberg and Dr. John Weldon
As noted previously, the sacraments are believed to work ex opere operatoâ€â€merely by virtue of the performance of the act. This explains why in some pagan countries overzealous Catholic priests have, apparently, actually thrown buckets of water on nativesâ€â€hoping to infuse the graces of baptism merely by the act itself.
Nevertheless, if we look at the sacraments collectively, we can see that each one is intended to perform a special function at a special time. Thus, just as baptism, confirmation and marriage are pivotal points in a person’s life, the function of penance, the Mass, and anointing the sick also relate to crucial moments in life.
Space does not permit discussing each sacrament in detail; however, to illustrate the sacraments we will discuss baptism, Holy Eucharist (in Part 3), and penance (in Part 4). These and other sacraments will briefly be discussed again when we look at the Catholic view of salvation.
Baptism
The Catholic Church teaches that baptism remits original sin, actual guilt and all punishment due to sin.1 The Catholic Church also teaches that baptism confers (1) justification, (2) spiritual rebirth or regeneration and (3) sanctification. Catholic apologist Karl Keating teaches, "The Catholic Church has always taught that justification comes through the sacrament of baptism" and "baptism is the justifying act."2 Thus, "the justification that occurs at baptism effects a real change in the soul.…"3
The Catholic Encyclopedia also explains the importance of baptism in the scheme of salvation:
Baptism, however, is only the beginning of justification because in Catholic teaching subsequent good works increase grace (spiritual power) and help perfect justification. Baptism does not save automatically, for Catholicism holds that salvation can be lost through mortal ("deadly") sin or other means. But salvation cannot be had without it. Because baptism produces regeneration, a person is made capable of faith. Once he exercises faith, he grows in sanctification which is then followed by his further justification, since baptism makes it possible for a person to cooperate with divine grace, allowing for further growth in righteousness.
In Outlines of the Catholic Faith we read the following about baptism:
Nevertheless, the fact that Catholicism teaches baptism is an essential requirement for salvation underscores a system of works salvation. Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma declares, "Baptism by water is, since the promulgation of the gospel, necessary for all men without exception, for salvation."7
But nowhere in all the Bible can this teaching be justified. It would be strange indeedâ€â€if baptism conferred all the above upon the believerâ€â€that the Apostle Paul himself would even think of saying that "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel" (1 Corinthians 1:17). To say that baptism is necessary for salvation is to undercut the basic biblical teaching of salvation by faith alone.
Retrieved from http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/roman ... 1202W3.htm
NOTES Available at
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/roman ... 1202W3.htm
by Dr. John Ankerberg and Dr. John Weldon
As noted previously, the sacraments are believed to work ex opere operatoâ€â€merely by virtue of the performance of the act. This explains why in some pagan countries overzealous Catholic priests have, apparently, actually thrown buckets of water on nativesâ€â€hoping to infuse the graces of baptism merely by the act itself.
Nevertheless, if we look at the sacraments collectively, we can see that each one is intended to perform a special function at a special time. Thus, just as baptism, confirmation and marriage are pivotal points in a person’s life, the function of penance, the Mass, and anointing the sick also relate to crucial moments in life.
Space does not permit discussing each sacrament in detail; however, to illustrate the sacraments we will discuss baptism, Holy Eucharist (in Part 3), and penance (in Part 4). These and other sacraments will briefly be discussed again when we look at the Catholic view of salvation.
Baptism
The Catholic Church teaches that baptism remits original sin, actual guilt and all punishment due to sin.1 The Catholic Church also teaches that baptism confers (1) justification, (2) spiritual rebirth or regeneration and (3) sanctification. Catholic apologist Karl Keating teaches, "The Catholic Church has always taught that justification comes through the sacrament of baptism" and "baptism is the justifying act."2 Thus, "the justification that occurs at baptism effects a real change in the soul.…"3
The Catholic Encyclopedia also explains the importance of baptism in the scheme of salvation:
- The effects of this sacrament are: (1) it cleanses us from original sin; (2) it makes us Christians through grace by sharing in Christ’s death and resurrection and setting up an initial program of living... (3) it makes us children of God as the life of Christ is brought forth within us.... Vatican II declared: "...baptism constitutes a sacramental bond of unity linking all who have been reborn by means of it. But baptism, of itself, is only a beginning.
[But]... baptism is necessary for salvation.…4
Baptism, however, is only the beginning of justification because in Catholic teaching subsequent good works increase grace (spiritual power) and help perfect justification. Baptism does not save automatically, for Catholicism holds that salvation can be lost through mortal ("deadly") sin or other means. But salvation cannot be had without it. Because baptism produces regeneration, a person is made capable of faith. Once he exercises faith, he grows in sanctification which is then followed by his further justification, since baptism makes it possible for a person to cooperate with divine grace, allowing for further growth in righteousness.
In Outlines of the Catholic Faith we read the following about baptism:
- The Sacrament of Baptism cleanses us from original sin. In those who have the use of reason Baptism also removes actual sin and the temporal punishment due to sin. In Baptism we are reborn as children of God, made members of his Church, and heirs to the kingdom of heaven. Baptism permanently relates us to God and is necessary for salvation.... The theological virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are infused with grace into the soul by Baptism. Baptism imprints an indelible character on the soul and can be received only once.5
Nevertheless, the fact that Catholicism teaches baptism is an essential requirement for salvation underscores a system of works salvation. Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma declares, "Baptism by water is, since the promulgation of the gospel, necessary for all men without exception, for salvation."7
But nowhere in all the Bible can this teaching be justified. It would be strange indeedâ€â€if baptism conferred all the above upon the believerâ€â€that the Apostle Paul himself would even think of saying that "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel" (1 Corinthians 1:17). To say that baptism is necessary for salvation is to undercut the basic biblical teaching of salvation by faith alone.
Retrieved from http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/roman ... 1202W3.htm
NOTES Available at
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/roman ... 1202W3.htm
S
Spirit Driven
Guest
Greetings Solo,
Thankyou for your posts, I think the true greatness of the RC Church is in its individual members personal belief in Jesus Christ... there is righteouseness in that.
I just think it is a pity, that Church ritual has become a Pagan cult of striving and working and doing to try and attain right standing with God.
Worse still that the Church insists this pagan ritual worship MUST be partaken of to attain right standing with God.... a total lie.... there is no amount of striving working and doing in any church ritual that will attain a person right standing with God..... it is all cow chips in the sight of God.
I am not just referring to the RC Church here either, I am referring to any Church that uses any type of Alter ceremony/ritual to sell its members on attaining right standing with God by taking part.
It is the Lie of all religion.
God is no respector of persons.
Grace and Peace to you
Thankyou for your posts, I think the true greatness of the RC Church is in its individual members personal belief in Jesus Christ... there is righteouseness in that.
I just think it is a pity, that Church ritual has become a Pagan cult of striving and working and doing to try and attain right standing with God.
Worse still that the Church insists this pagan ritual worship MUST be partaken of to attain right standing with God.... a total lie.... there is no amount of striving working and doing in any church ritual that will attain a person right standing with God..... it is all cow chips in the sight of God.
I am not just referring to the RC Church here either, I am referring to any Church that uses any type of Alter ceremony/ritual to sell its members on attaining right standing with God by taking part.
It is the Lie of all religion.
God is no respector of persons.
Grace and Peace to you
S
Solo
Guest
How do The Sacraments Function in the Life of a Catholic Believer? -- Part 3
by Dr. John Ankerberg and Dr. John Weldon
Holy Eucharist (The Mass)
Roman Catholicism teaches that in the Mass, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ Himself is actually re-presented to the faithful and its benefits applied to them.
Although the Catholic Church maintains that the Mass in no way detracts from the atonement of Christ, it still believes that it is principally through the Mass that the blessings of Christ’s death are applied to believersâ€â€and therefore the blessings of Christ’s death are not procured solely by faith alone.
But one must ask how credible this claim is to not detract from the atonement. The Mass is defined throughout Catholicism as being "truly propitiatory." Further, because it pardons sins, it is held to be necessary for salvation. From a Protestant perspective, the natural question is this: If Christ died for all sin on the cross and faith alone procures this benefit, is the sacrifice of the Mass really necessary?
Catholics and Protestants agree that sin is an affront to God’s holiness calling forth God’s condemnation. They agree propitiation is an offering that is made to God in light of His offended justice so that He becomes favorable to the sinner. But Protestants disagree with the following: "Hence the Mass as a propitiation is offered to effect the remission of sins."1
The Catholic Church has always emphasized the fact that Christ is resacrificed in the Mass (Catholics use the term "re-presented") as propitiation to God. The authoritative Council of Trent affirmed that the sacrifice of the Mass is propitiatory both for the living and the dead:
Pope Pius XII in his encyclical Mediator Dei reaffirmed the Council of Trent when he stressed that the sacrifice of the Mass was not a "mere commemoration" of the passion and death of Christ, as Protestants teach, but "is truly and properly the offering of a sacrifice wherein by an unbloody immolation [again, an immolation is something offered as a sacrifice], the High Priest does what He [Jesus] had already done on the Cross, offering Himself to the Eternal Father as a most acceptable victim."4
Vatican II continued this view of the Mass also reaffirming the position of Trent: "One... and the same is the victim, one and the same is He Who now offers by the ministry of His priests, and Who then offered Himself on the Cross; the difference is only in the manner of offering."5
As a result, Vatican II teaches that at the Mass, "the faithful gather, and find help and comfort through venerating the presence of the Son of God our Savior, offered for us [now] on the sacrificial altar."6
As noted elsewhere, according to Karl Keating in Catholicism and Fundamentalism, "...The Church insists that the Mass is the continuation and re-presentation of the sacrifice of Calvary."7 Emphasizing it is not a recrucifixion of Christ where Christ suffers and dies again, he cites John A. O’Brien who says, "The Mass is the renewal and perpetuation of the sacrifice of the Cross in the sense that it offers anew to God the Victim of Calvary... and applies the fruits of Christ’s death upon the Cross to individual human souls."8
In essence, the real problem between Catholics and Protestants is this: Catholicism teaches that Christ is still offering Himself today in thousands of Masses conducted regularly throughout the world.9 We stress that the Mass is not merely the symbolic offering of the Eucharist or the thanksgiving of the faithful, "It is the supreme moment in the Church’s worship when the priest claims to offer Christ as a sacrifice for the living and the dead."10
Thus, according to The Catholic Encyclopedia, "We may establish that the Eucharist is a true sacrifice.... The true nature of a sacrifice is realized in the Mass. By declaration of the Council of Trent, Christ is recognized as the offering Priest, the Victim offered, and the immolation in the sacramental order. These essentials of the sacrifice are present in the three main actions of the Mass: the Offertory, the Consecration, and the Communion."11
But a continual resacrificing of Christ is not the picture we arrive at from the Bible. In the Bible, Christ is pictured as having accomplished His work and having sat down at the right hand of the Father (Hebrews 1:3; 8:1). The finality of Christ’s sacrifice stands in stark contrast with the Catholic conception of the constant "renewal" of that sacrifice in the Mass.
Consider the book of Hebrews. Hebrews repeatedly uses terms such as "once," "once for all" and "forever" to emphasize both the perfection and the finality of Christ’s death on the cross (Hebrews 9:12,26,28; 10:12, 14; 12:2).
If Christ offered one sacrifice for sins forever and thus obtained eternal redemption for us (Hebrews 9:12; 10:10-14), what is the need for a perpetual "bloodless sacrifice" of Christ over and over again literally millions of times? How can the Mass apply a forgiveness of sins that was already fully earned by Christ on the cross and applied to the believer at the very point of saving faith (John 5:24; 6:47)?
The Scripture is clear: "one sacrifice for sins forever"; "once for all"; "It is finished," etc. (Romans 6:9; Hebrews 7:27; 9:26-28; 10:10-14; 1 Peter 3:18; John 19:30). Thus, in the book of Hebrews the "once for all" sacrifice of Christ is clearly contrasted with the perpetual offerings of the Levitical priest. In Hebrews 9:25-28 we are told that Christ was not to offer Himself repeatedly, for then He would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world:
When the Bible teaches that "but when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God.... For by a single offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified" (Hebrews 10:12, 14), it undermines the very basis of the Catholic Mass: continual sacrifice. As Carson points out, "Any service, therefore, which purports to renew the sacrifice of Calvary is a plain denial of the overwhelming testimony of Scripture to the perfection of the Lord’s one offering. The doctrine of the Mass implies the imperfection and insufficiency of the sacrifice of Calvary, for the latter needs now to be supplemented by the daily offering at the altars of the Church of Rome."12
In other words, Jesus’ perfect sacrifice, reflected by His own cry from the cross, "It is finished" (John 19:30), leaves no room at all for the Catholic resacrifice of Christ at the Mass based on the idea that Christ is actually present in the bread and wine.
In conclusion, because of the dogma of transubstantiation, Roman Catholicism teaches that Christ continues to offer himself as a holy sacrifice for sin at every Mass. Many Protestants have argued that if this does not undermine the finality and sufficiency of the atonement, they can think of little else that does.
Retrieved from http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/roman ... 0103W3.htm
NOTES Available at http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/roman ... 0103W3.htm
by Dr. John Ankerberg and Dr. John Weldon
Holy Eucharist (The Mass)
Roman Catholicism teaches that in the Mass, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ Himself is actually re-presented to the faithful and its benefits applied to them.
Although the Catholic Church maintains that the Mass in no way detracts from the atonement of Christ, it still believes that it is principally through the Mass that the blessings of Christ’s death are applied to believersâ€â€and therefore the blessings of Christ’s death are not procured solely by faith alone.
But one must ask how credible this claim is to not detract from the atonement. The Mass is defined throughout Catholicism as being "truly propitiatory." Further, because it pardons sins, it is held to be necessary for salvation. From a Protestant perspective, the natural question is this: If Christ died for all sin on the cross and faith alone procures this benefit, is the sacrifice of the Mass really necessary?
Catholics and Protestants agree that sin is an affront to God’s holiness calling forth God’s condemnation. They agree propitiation is an offering that is made to God in light of His offended justice so that He becomes favorable to the sinner. But Protestants disagree with the following: "Hence the Mass as a propitiation is offered to effect the remission of sins."1
The Catholic Church has always emphasized the fact that Christ is resacrificed in the Mass (Catholics use the term "re-presented") as propitiation to God. The authoritative Council of Trent affirmed that the sacrifice of the Mass is propitiatory both for the living and the dead:
- And inasmuch as in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass is contained and immolated [offered] in an unbloody manner the same Christ who once offered Himself in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross, the holy council teaches that this is truly propitiatory.... For, appeased by this sacrifice, the Lord grants the grace and gift of penitence and pardons even for the gravest crimes and sins... it [the Mass] is rightly offered not only for the sins, punishments, satisfactions and other necessities of the faithful who are living, but also for those departed in Christ, but not yet fully purified [i.e., those in purgatory].2
- Catholic theologians make much of such passages as John 6:48-58, Matthew 26:26, and 1 Corinthians 11:23-30 in an attempt to teach that Christ and the apostles taught this doctrine. But the evidence is not as one-sided as might first appear.... That our Lord was using highly figurative language is evident from the fact that both the Jews and His disciples were interpreting His words literally [John 6:] vs. 52, 60, 61 and He deliberately went out of His way to contradict such a literal interpretation: "The words that I am speaking to you are spirit and they are life: the flesh does not profit anything" (vs. 63).
Our Lord clearly taught that belief in Him was the metaphorical equivalent of "eating" His flesh and blood (vs. 35, 36) and as we have seen He expressly stated that the words "bread," "flesh," "blood," and "eat," in a fleshly or literal interpretation, profited nothing.3
Pope Pius XII in his encyclical Mediator Dei reaffirmed the Council of Trent when he stressed that the sacrifice of the Mass was not a "mere commemoration" of the passion and death of Christ, as Protestants teach, but "is truly and properly the offering of a sacrifice wherein by an unbloody immolation [again, an immolation is something offered as a sacrifice], the High Priest does what He [Jesus] had already done on the Cross, offering Himself to the Eternal Father as a most acceptable victim."4
Vatican II continued this view of the Mass also reaffirming the position of Trent: "One... and the same is the victim, one and the same is He Who now offers by the ministry of His priests, and Who then offered Himself on the Cross; the difference is only in the manner of offering."5
As a result, Vatican II teaches that at the Mass, "the faithful gather, and find help and comfort through venerating the presence of the Son of God our Savior, offered for us [now] on the sacrificial altar."6
As noted elsewhere, according to Karl Keating in Catholicism and Fundamentalism, "...The Church insists that the Mass is the continuation and re-presentation of the sacrifice of Calvary."7 Emphasizing it is not a recrucifixion of Christ where Christ suffers and dies again, he cites John A. O’Brien who says, "The Mass is the renewal and perpetuation of the sacrifice of the Cross in the sense that it offers anew to God the Victim of Calvary... and applies the fruits of Christ’s death upon the Cross to individual human souls."8
In essence, the real problem between Catholics and Protestants is this: Catholicism teaches that Christ is still offering Himself today in thousands of Masses conducted regularly throughout the world.9 We stress that the Mass is not merely the symbolic offering of the Eucharist or the thanksgiving of the faithful, "It is the supreme moment in the Church’s worship when the priest claims to offer Christ as a sacrifice for the living and the dead."10
Thus, according to The Catholic Encyclopedia, "We may establish that the Eucharist is a true sacrifice.... The true nature of a sacrifice is realized in the Mass. By declaration of the Council of Trent, Christ is recognized as the offering Priest, the Victim offered, and the immolation in the sacramental order. These essentials of the sacrifice are present in the three main actions of the Mass: the Offertory, the Consecration, and the Communion."11
But a continual resacrificing of Christ is not the picture we arrive at from the Bible. In the Bible, Christ is pictured as having accomplished His work and having sat down at the right hand of the Father (Hebrews 1:3; 8:1). The finality of Christ’s sacrifice stands in stark contrast with the Catholic conception of the constant "renewal" of that sacrifice in the Mass.
Consider the book of Hebrews. Hebrews repeatedly uses terms such as "once," "once for all" and "forever" to emphasize both the perfection and the finality of Christ’s death on the cross (Hebrews 9:12,26,28; 10:12, 14; 12:2).
If Christ offered one sacrifice for sins forever and thus obtained eternal redemption for us (Hebrews 9:12; 10:10-14), what is the need for a perpetual "bloodless sacrifice" of Christ over and over again literally millions of times? How can the Mass apply a forgiveness of sins that was already fully earned by Christ on the cross and applied to the believer at the very point of saving faith (John 5:24; 6:47)?
The Scripture is clear: "one sacrifice for sins forever"; "once for all"; "It is finished," etc. (Romans 6:9; Hebrews 7:27; 9:26-28; 10:10-14; 1 Peter 3:18; John 19:30). Thus, in the book of Hebrews the "once for all" sacrifice of Christ is clearly contrasted with the perpetual offerings of the Levitical priest. In Hebrews 9:25-28 we are told that Christ was not to offer Himself repeatedly, for then He would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world:
- Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. (Emphasis added)
When the Bible teaches that "but when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God.... For by a single offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified" (Hebrews 10:12, 14), it undermines the very basis of the Catholic Mass: continual sacrifice. As Carson points out, "Any service, therefore, which purports to renew the sacrifice of Calvary is a plain denial of the overwhelming testimony of Scripture to the perfection of the Lord’s one offering. The doctrine of the Mass implies the imperfection and insufficiency of the sacrifice of Calvary, for the latter needs now to be supplemented by the daily offering at the altars of the Church of Rome."12
In other words, Jesus’ perfect sacrifice, reflected by His own cry from the cross, "It is finished" (John 19:30), leaves no room at all for the Catholic resacrifice of Christ at the Mass based on the idea that Christ is actually present in the bread and wine.
In conclusion, because of the dogma of transubstantiation, Roman Catholicism teaches that Christ continues to offer himself as a holy sacrifice for sin at every Mass. Many Protestants have argued that if this does not undermine the finality and sufficiency of the atonement, they can think of little else that does.
Retrieved from http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/roman ... 0103W3.htm
NOTES Available at http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/roman ... 0103W3.htm
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Solo
Guest
How Do The Sacraments Function in the Life of a Catholic Believer? --- Part 4
by Dr. John Ankerberg and Dr. John Weldon
Penance
Penance is a particular act, or acts, considered as satisfaction offered to God as reparation for sin committed.1 Penance may involve mortification, such as wearing an irritating shirt woven of coarse animal hair,2 prayer (e.g., the Rosary), or a religious pilgrimage to a shrine of Christ or Mary,3 or any number of other deeds.
According to The Catholic Encyclopedia, Jesus Christ Himself instituted the sacrament of penance for "the pardon of sins committed after baptism."4 Thus, "In the sacrament of penance, the faithful obtain from the mercy of God pardon for their sins against Him.…"5
As noted, the sacrament of penance is designed specifically to deal with sins committed after baptism. Why? Because the grace that is received or infused in baptism can be entirely lost by mortal ("deadly") sin. Mortal sin is held to be deadly because it actually destroys the grace of God within a person, making salvation necessary again. Thus, a new sacrament (penance) is necessary in order to restore an individual to the state of grace first received at baptism.
In fact, without penance a person cannot be restored to salvation. For example, penance is related to the concept of justification in such a way that it actually "restores" the process of justification. In one sense, this is why the Council of Trent actually referred to the sacrament of penance as the "second plank" of justification.6
Thus, salvation through good works can also be seen in the doctrine of penance. Because mortal or "deadly" sin cancels the ongoing process of infusing grace, justification and/or salvation in the life of the Catholic believer, all these must be restored. Thus, "...the result of mortal sin is the loss of sanctifying grace, the loss of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, remorse, and the punitive effect of eternal separation from God. To avoid these consequences, the reception of the Sacrament of Penance is required to return to the love of God."7
In other words, apart from performing the sacrament of penance, a Catholic who commits mortal sin is destined for eternal punishment in hell. Escaping such a fate results from the penitent acts of the believer, i.e., a form of salvation by works.
But none of this is biblical. Biblically, prior to salvation all sin is mortal. Even the smallest sin is sufficient to condemn a person eternally. But after salvation no sin is mortal, no matter how grave, because Christ paid the full divine penalty for all sin on the crossâ€â€and because this complete forgiveness has been given to the believer. Further, according to Scripture, salvation is based on God’s grace and electionâ€â€not personal merit or works. If salvation is by grace and election, then it depends entirely on God and therefore no saved person can ever be lost and no mortal sin can ever cancel a person’s justification.
What this means is that Catholics who believe their mortal sins are forgiven by the work of penance are being deceived. If they are truly saved, then their mortal sinsâ€â€all of themâ€â€are already fully forgiven by the death of Christ solely through their faith in Jesus.
But if they are not saved, then all the penance in the world cannot forgive their sins, whether such sins are "mortal" or the less serious "venial" ones. Biblically, it is faith in Christ alone which forgives sinsâ€â€not penance or any other sacrament.8
Although Catholicism maintains that the works of satisfaction accomplished by the penitent sinner do not give him intrinsic merit (merit of condignity), they do claim they give him other merit (merit of congruity). These are works of satisfaction supposedly done through the power of Jesus and the grace of God. But the key point is that they are works done by an individualâ€â€they are his/her works and they are meritorious. In the end, it is still my work and my merit that makes it possible for God to restore me to the process of justification and/or salvation. In the end it is something I do that keeps me out of hell.
Biblically, of course, it is the merit of Jesus Christ alone that reconciles us, justifies us, and assures our entrance into heaven.
The above discussion proves that Catholicism does teach salvation occurs, at least in part, through the sacramentsâ€â€in other words, works of merit performed by individual Catholics in order to help secure their own redemption.
The above teachings are why "The sacraments as works of human merit, which must be mediated through the church, represent a denial of justification by faith alone and an infringement upon the sovereign freedom of God."9
Sacramental Ambiguities
But Rome also teaches that sacraments function in certain ways irrespective of the spiritual condition of the priest or layperson, functioning ex opere operato; in essence, they "work by their own working" to "confer grace to the soul":
In essence, what the sacraments do effect would seem to be a form of "mechanical" sanctification.
Regardless, the Council of Trent, whose decrees remain authoritative, declared as anathema (divinely cursed) anyone who would deny the seven sacraments of Rome: "If anyone says that the sacraments...were not all instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ, or that there are more or less than seven...or that any one of these seven is not truly and intrinsically a sacrament, let him be anathema."14 Further, "if anyone says that the sacraments... are not necessary for salvation... and that without them... men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification... let him be anathema."15 Further, Canon Five reads, "If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema."16
In conclusion, the sacraments of Rome are proof that a system of works salvation is taught and therefore that the Catholic Church teaches "another Gospel" (Galatians 1:8,9). In the end, salvation is procured by 1) God’s grace, 2) individual faith and 3) works, i.e., the sacraments.
Retrieved from http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/roman ... 0203W3.htm
NOTES Available at http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/roman ... 0203W3.htm
by Dr. John Ankerberg and Dr. John Weldon
Penance
Penance is a particular act, or acts, considered as satisfaction offered to God as reparation for sin committed.1 Penance may involve mortification, such as wearing an irritating shirt woven of coarse animal hair,2 prayer (e.g., the Rosary), or a religious pilgrimage to a shrine of Christ or Mary,3 or any number of other deeds.
According to The Catholic Encyclopedia, Jesus Christ Himself instituted the sacrament of penance for "the pardon of sins committed after baptism."4 Thus, "In the sacrament of penance, the faithful obtain from the mercy of God pardon for their sins against Him.…"5
As noted, the sacrament of penance is designed specifically to deal with sins committed after baptism. Why? Because the grace that is received or infused in baptism can be entirely lost by mortal ("deadly") sin. Mortal sin is held to be deadly because it actually destroys the grace of God within a person, making salvation necessary again. Thus, a new sacrament (penance) is necessary in order to restore an individual to the state of grace first received at baptism.
In fact, without penance a person cannot be restored to salvation. For example, penance is related to the concept of justification in such a way that it actually "restores" the process of justification. In one sense, this is why the Council of Trent actually referred to the sacrament of penance as the "second plank" of justification.6
Thus, salvation through good works can also be seen in the doctrine of penance. Because mortal or "deadly" sin cancels the ongoing process of infusing grace, justification and/or salvation in the life of the Catholic believer, all these must be restored. Thus, "...the result of mortal sin is the loss of sanctifying grace, the loss of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, remorse, and the punitive effect of eternal separation from God. To avoid these consequences, the reception of the Sacrament of Penance is required to return to the love of God."7
In other words, apart from performing the sacrament of penance, a Catholic who commits mortal sin is destined for eternal punishment in hell. Escaping such a fate results from the penitent acts of the believer, i.e., a form of salvation by works.
But none of this is biblical. Biblically, prior to salvation all sin is mortal. Even the smallest sin is sufficient to condemn a person eternally. But after salvation no sin is mortal, no matter how grave, because Christ paid the full divine penalty for all sin on the crossâ€â€and because this complete forgiveness has been given to the believer. Further, according to Scripture, salvation is based on God’s grace and electionâ€â€not personal merit or works. If salvation is by grace and election, then it depends entirely on God and therefore no saved person can ever be lost and no mortal sin can ever cancel a person’s justification.
What this means is that Catholics who believe their mortal sins are forgiven by the work of penance are being deceived. If they are truly saved, then their mortal sinsâ€â€all of themâ€â€are already fully forgiven by the death of Christ solely through their faith in Jesus.
But if they are not saved, then all the penance in the world cannot forgive their sins, whether such sins are "mortal" or the less serious "venial" ones. Biblically, it is faith in Christ alone which forgives sinsâ€â€not penance or any other sacrament.8
Although Catholicism maintains that the works of satisfaction accomplished by the penitent sinner do not give him intrinsic merit (merit of condignity), they do claim they give him other merit (merit of congruity). These are works of satisfaction supposedly done through the power of Jesus and the grace of God. But the key point is that they are works done by an individualâ€â€they are his/her works and they are meritorious. In the end, it is still my work and my merit that makes it possible for God to restore me to the process of justification and/or salvation. In the end it is something I do that keeps me out of hell.
Biblically, of course, it is the merit of Jesus Christ alone that reconciles us, justifies us, and assures our entrance into heaven.
The above discussion proves that Catholicism does teach salvation occurs, at least in part, through the sacramentsâ€â€in other words, works of merit performed by individual Catholics in order to help secure their own redemption.
The above teachings are why "The sacraments as works of human merit, which must be mediated through the church, represent a denial of justification by faith alone and an infringement upon the sovereign freedom of God."9
Sacramental Ambiguities
But Rome also teaches that sacraments function in certain ways irrespective of the spiritual condition of the priest or layperson, functioning ex opere operato; in essence, they "work by their own working" to "confer grace to the soul":
- The effects of sacraments are not dependent upon the attitude or merits of either the priest or the recipientâ€â€contrary to the rule that holds for all other activities. This is so because the sacramental act is in essence an act of Christ himself, operating through his servant, the priest (called "another Christ"). In the words of Pope Paul VI [Mysterium fidei, no. 38]: "Let no one deny that the sacraments are acts of Christ,… are holy of themselves, and owing to the virtue of Christ, they confer grace to the soul as they touch the body."10
- ... produce a specific effect (not grace) whenever they are validly administered, even if they are not received in faith and good will. This is true of the ["permanent"] "character" conferred by baptism and holy orders, as well as in the conversion of the elements in the Eucharist. The Eucharist is viewed as the "total Christ"â€â€that is, Christ and the church. As such it is a propitiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead.11
In essence, what the sacraments do effect would seem to be a form of "mechanical" sanctification.
Regardless, the Council of Trent, whose decrees remain authoritative, declared as anathema (divinely cursed) anyone who would deny the seven sacraments of Rome: "If anyone says that the sacraments...were not all instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ, or that there are more or less than seven...or that any one of these seven is not truly and intrinsically a sacrament, let him be anathema."14 Further, "if anyone says that the sacraments... are not necessary for salvation... and that without them... men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification... let him be anathema."15 Further, Canon Five reads, "If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema."16
In conclusion, the sacraments of Rome are proof that a system of works salvation is taught and therefore that the Catholic Church teaches "another Gospel" (Galatians 1:8,9). In the end, salvation is procured by 1) God’s grace, 2) individual faith and 3) works, i.e., the sacraments.
Retrieved from http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/roman ... 0203W3.htm
NOTES Available at http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/roman ... 0203W3.htm
stovebolts
Member
Re: reply
That's a pretty low blow... g'day.
golfjack said:
That's a pretty low blow... g'day.
cyberjosh
Member
I was refering to having the Holy Spirit. But tongues: THE evidence? No. A evidence, certainly. I'm not a Pentecostal if that's what you're concerned about. I know not all believers speak in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30). It's just one of the many gifts that the Holy Spirit can give.
My point for that specific one is that it requires the Holy Spirit and unbelievers don't have the Holy Spirit. Don't read too much into it.
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Nocturnal_Principal_X
Guest
“Sacraments...Does your church respect them?â€Â
If when you say sacraments you mean:
“Sacraments, as understood by the Roman Catholic Church, are outward signs, perceptible to the senses, instituted by Jesus and entrusted to the Church, as means by which the divine grace indicated by the sign is conferred, helping the individual to advance in holiness, and contributing to the Church' s growth in charity and in giving witness.â€Â
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacraments ... _Church%29
Then that would be a no, I don’t believe anything adds to ones salvation. I personally believe that one only receives salvation through faith in Christ (I also believe there is no scriptural support for the sacramental view held by Roman Catholics).
For instance I do not believe in the Sacramental view of Marriage, I believe that Marriage is a Covenant before God that cannot under any circumstances be dissolved (in other words I don’t believe there are any grounds for divorce).
The church I attend does however respect, or observe, Baptism and Communion as ordinances.
If when you say sacraments you mean:
“Sacraments, as understood by the Roman Catholic Church, are outward signs, perceptible to the senses, instituted by Jesus and entrusted to the Church, as means by which the divine grace indicated by the sign is conferred, helping the individual to advance in holiness, and contributing to the Church' s growth in charity and in giving witness.â€Â
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacraments ... _Church%29
Then that would be a no, I don’t believe anything adds to ones salvation. I personally believe that one only receives salvation through faith in Christ (I also believe there is no scriptural support for the sacramental view held by Roman Catholics).
For instance I do not believe in the Sacramental view of Marriage, I believe that Marriage is a Covenant before God that cannot under any circumstances be dissolved (in other words I don’t believe there are any grounds for divorce).
The church I attend does however respect, or observe, Baptism and Communion as ordinances.
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Solo
Guest
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thessalonian
Guest
Thanks for your personal opinions. So if they are wrong and you lead peole to hell by voicing them what will that say for you. I don't want personal opinions. Jesus says "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free". Personal opinions will get people a hot cup of java in hell perhaps. The sacraments are all about salvation and grace. Your misunderstanding of them makes your opinions rather poor.
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thessalonian
Guest
Any of you ever "get saved" at an altar call? There is no evidence whatsoever in scripture for altar calls without baptisms. It is a false teaching by the way many Protestants on this board use the Bible. Any condemors out there?
By the way, don't mistake my point. Personally I have some regard for altar calls but my view on scripture is not the same. The issue is this constant "show me that in the Bible". Those who continue to do this are not consistent if they don't condemn altar calls. So let's see if anyone will.
By the way, don't mistake my point. Personally I have some regard for altar calls but my view on scripture is not the same. The issue is this constant "show me that in the Bible". Those who continue to do this are not consistent if they don't condemn altar calls. So let's see if anyone will.
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Nocturnal_Principal_X
Guest
I understand what you are saying but it is not just my personal opinion, I believe it is Scriptural. I believe whole heartedly that salvation only comes through faith in Christ alone. I also believe whole heartedly that the Sacramental view of Marriage is unbiblical and the Bible actually calls for a Covenant model of marriage. Along with that also comes the belief that the Bible does not give grounds for divorce under any circumstance.thessalonian said:
At any rate, thank you for being respectful of my opinion, which I believe is biblically grounded. As always, if one can provide good scriptural evidence against my opinion then I will prayerfully consider the opposing view and change my belief.