Salvation: A study of lost and found

[Rollo Tamasi]

Is a born again Christian one of His sheep?



JLB

You make it sound so simple for some idiot to walk away from God.
You are right.
They would have to be a spiritual idiot.

Where does the helpless Holy Spirit come into the picture?
The one Jesus sent us to help get through to the end?

For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.” Galatians 5:17–18
If you are not led by the Spirit, how can you be born again?

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.” Galatians 5:22
If a person does not have these traits, he is not born again.
If he does have them, how can he walk away from God?

“And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24

How can someone who belongs to Jesus Christ do otherwise?

 

[JLB]

This passage is not about chasing after people who have fallen away from Christ.
It is about people who have never been saved.
It is missionary work.

Can you please acknowledge what I asked?


Is a born again Christian one of His sheep?






JLB

 

[JLB]

You make it sound so simple for some idiot to walk away from God.
You are right.
They would have to be a spiritual idiot.

I never said anyone is an idiot.

I think it’s important to understand just exactly what Jesus is referring to in this context, about His sheep who become lost.


The context, which differs from “fall away” or “depart from Him” is referring to wanting to live in sin, sinning against a brother or sister in Christ, without dealing with it and the reprocussions it has on the person.


This context is not about turning to other religions and renouncing Christ.


It’s about how Jesus views sin, and its affect on His body; His Church - His sons.


Let’s stick to the context in this discussion so we are not mixing together two different perspectives with two different outcomes.


In Matthews version, Jesus expounds on explaining the parable more than Luke’s accounting.


Please read it, so we are discussing the same context.


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17


Jesus explains the parable of the lost sheep, so we know exactly what He is referring to.



Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.

But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’

And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.


The end result of a person who sins against his brother in Christ after having the brother go to him, then two or three, then the Church leadership, is he is as a tax collector or heathen;
Sinner.


IOW He is lost, and remains lost until he repents.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Where does the helpless Holy Spirit come into the picture?
The one Jesus sent us to help get through to the end?

For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.” Galatians 5:17–18
If you are not led by the Spirit, how can you be born again?

Only born again Christians who have the Holy Spirit, have the ability to be led by the Spirit.


It is a choice.


Paul plainly says, that in order for the believer to overcome the desires of the flesh one must walk according the Spirit.


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16


We must learn to invest our time, our efforts, what we allow our bodies to see, to hear, to think and do, in things that benefit our inner man, that build up our inner man where the Spirit dwells to transform us into the image of Christ.


Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8


Paul say’s those who sow and invest to the Spirit, are those who will reap everlasting life.



JLB

 

[MarkT]

[

Is a born again Christian one of His sheep?



JLB

If they are born again, I would say yes. He can also be a shepherd of the sheep. Depends on his calling.

 

[MarkT]

I never said anyone is an idiot.

I think it’s important to understand just exactly what Jesus is referring to in this context, about His sheep who become lost.


The context, which differs from “fall away” or “depart from Him” is referring to wanting to live in sin, sinning against a brother or sister in Christ, without dealing with it and the reprocussions it has on the person.


This context is not about turning to other religions and renouncing Christ.


It’s about how Jesus views sin, and its affect on His body; His Church - His sons.


Let’s stick to the context in this discussion so we are not mixing together two different perspectives with two different outcomes.


In Matthews version, Jesus expounds on explaining the parable more than Luke’s accounting.


Please read it, so we are discussing the same context.


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17


Jesus explains the parable of the lost sheep, so we know exactly what He is referring to.



Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.

But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’

And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.


The end result of a person who sins against his brother in Christ after having the brother go to him, then two or three, then the Church leadership, is he is as a tax collector or heathen;
Sinner.


IOW He is lost, and remains lost until he repents.



JLB

Matthew 18:15-17 is a separate teaching. JLB The parable of the lost sheep is Matthew 18:10-14

 

[JLB]

Matthew 18:15-17 is a separate teaching. JLB The parable of the lost sheep is Matthew 18:10-14

As I said previously, Matthew’s account is where Jesus expounds more on His explanation.



The word likewise is Jesus letting us know that He is now explaining what the parable means.


Parabolic speech -

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

Direct Speech - ie explanation

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7



Matthew’s account -


Parabolic Speech -

“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.


Direct Speech - ie Explanation


“Moreover (likewise) if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17



Same parable, with Matthew recording more instruction.

Jesus explains how to go after a brother who is lost.


If the wayward brother refuses all three, he is consider to be a sinner, as a heathen.


Should we discuss what the definition of a sinner is?



JLB

 

[JLB]

[


If they are born again, I would say yes. He can also be a shepherd of the sheep. Depends on his calling.

I don’t understand what you are saying here.


I asked - Is a born again Christian one of His sheep?


My answer is yes.


If you are not a born again Christian then you are not one of His sheep.


Do you agree?




JLB

 

[JLB]

[


If they are born again, I would say yes. He can also be a shepherd of the sheep. Depends on his calling.

Jesus Refered to His Apostles as His sheep.


The point being only Christians are His sheep.




JLB

 

[MarkT]

As I said previously, Matthew’s account is where Jesus expounds more on His explanation.



The word likewise is Jesus letting us know that He is now explaining what the parable means.


Parabolic speech -

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

Direct Speech - ie explanation

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7



Matthew’s account -


Parabolic Speech -

“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.


Direct Speech - ie Explanation


“Moreover (likewise) if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17



Same parable, with Matthew recording more instruction.

Jesus explains how to go after a brother who is lost.


If the wayward brother refuses all three, he is consider to be a sinner, as a heathen.


Should we discuss what the definition of a sinner is?



JLB

Get yourself an RSV. JLB It's easy to see it's a different teaching.

15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

 

[ezra]

Jesus Refered to His Apostles as His sheep.


The point being only Christians are His sheep.

i agree with this but not so sure the lost sheep in the parable represents lose of salvation i go by this 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. astray does not represent lose of salvation .
astray going after the one who wonders off .. how many times since you been saved or any of us ever wondered to a certain degree spiritually.. as i like to say out on left field trying find home plate... there are lots of sheep wondering out in the wilderness .but still saved ..

NO this has nothing to do with osas . which in a nut shell is the topic on worded differently granted staying in the wilderness for to long of period of time.if you have no survival skills the word in us.. then spiritual death can happen .
but we dont know the point . i got a buddy knows the bible--saved darn good bible teacher. at one of the churches i was pastor at i got him to come teach sunday school class. i actually think he gets real close to God in this time..and he gets spooked .im not his judge so i dont know but it is our job to warn of the danger . i talked with a co worker who the doctor said she had a tumor behind her eye . she was to have surgery thursday NO TUMOR .i had been praying for her...
i talked to her about what God had done and she needs find a church... i hit a brick wall with her every time.. i told her she could harden her heart and not realize it...
since that conversation in priv message.. she has not replied she did say God is Good and he is merciful and full of grace favor to the lost.. he kept this guy safe many of a time..

if i was to guess she is not saved but i really cant judge her can i?

 

[MarkT]

John 21:15-17 Revised Standard Version (RSV)
Jesus and Peter
15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 A second time he said to him, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.

As I said previously, Matthew’s account is where Jesus expounds more on His explanation.



The word likewise is Jesus letting us know that He is now explaining what the parable means.


Parabolic speech -

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

Direct Speech - ie explanation

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7



Matthew’s account -


Parabolic Speech -

“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.


Direct Speech - ie Explanation


“Moreover (likewise) if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17



Same parable, with Matthew recording more instruction.

Jesus explains how to go after a brother who is lost.


If the wayward brother refuses all three, he is consider to be a sinner, as a heathen.


Should we discuss what the definition of a sinner is?



JLB

There's no likewise in the RSV, so you should not confuse the two.

 

[MarkT]

As I said previously, Matthew’s account is where Jesus expounds more on His explanation.



The word likewise is Jesus letting us know that He is now explaining what the parable means.


Parabolic speech -

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

Direct Speech - ie explanation

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7



Matthew’s account -


Parabolic Speech -

“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.


Direct Speech - ie Explanation


“Moreover (likewise) if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17



Same parable, with Matthew recording more instruction.

Jesus explains how to go after a brother who is lost.


If the wayward brother refuses all three, he is consider to be a sinner, as a heathen.


Should we discuss what the definition of a sinner is?



JLB

Matthew 18:12
What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray?

Jesus is asking a rhetorical question, to the effect, if a man had a hundred sheep and one sheep was gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one who went astray? The suggestion is yes he does.

So Jesus said, 'Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

The little ones he is referring to are the little ones who believe in him. Mt. 18:1-4

 

[for_his_glory]

It would have done you well to slowly read what was posted. I know it's a lot, but I sifted through about 20 pages to compile that. Most of what you ask is either what's already been posted or in his book.
I recommend you get a copy for Kindle.

Snodgrass wrote:
What is revealed about the character of God is the value he places on even the least deserving and the care he extends to such people. God is not passive, waiting for people to approach him after they get their lives in order. He is the seeking God who takes the initiative to bring people back, regardless of how “lost” they are.

One thing that irks me is when some Christians say you have to clean yourself up first before you can come to Christ. It's like saying you have to clean the fish before you catch them. It's also like saying you need to be righteous to approach God, but they do not realize our righteousness is as a filthy rag to God, Isaiah 64:6. We come to the Lord as we are and He will create in us a new heart, Ezekiel 36:26, 27.

We need to humble ourselves before the Lord with a heart of repentance and acknowledge we are a sinner needing a Savior as all have sinned and fallen short of His glory, Romans 3:23.

Luke 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. 32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

 

[ezra]

some Christians say you have to clean yourself up first before you can come to Christ.

i tried that before i got saved i quit cussing tried doing better it didnt last long

 

[for_his_glory]

Same with the people of Israel. They were like lost sheep without a shepherd.

Israel always had a Shepard, but like Dan and Epharaim they choose to bow down to other god's separating themselves from God forever as they refused to repent.

God gave Israel 490 years to repent. They were set free from Babylon when the Medes and Persian conquered Babylon (Chaldeans) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshipping and they continued to receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.

The 490 years were up and many of the Jews not only did not repent but they killed the very Messiah they had been waiting for as well as in 24 A.D. they made an opened display of rejecting the Gospel message as they stoned Stephen being the final messenger that was sent to give them their last chance to repent.

 

[for_his_glory]

Tend my sheep....
Who are God's sheep?

If it means everybody is a child of God,,,it could mean what you said.

If it means those saved (God's sheep) then it could mean to take care of the saved ones....like for instance in Mathew 18:15........

??

God's sheep are the congregation of His church being the Spiritual body of Christ through repentance and the Spiritual rebirth and indwelled with the Holy Spirit. Some (sheep) do get lost at times as I have many times as I ran away from the flock, but God has always brought me back to the flock.

 

[for_his_glory]

John 21:15-17 Revised Standard Version (RSV)
Jesus and Peter
15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 A second time he said to him, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.


There's no likewise in the RSV, so you should not confuse the two.

We also need to remember even though Peter said he loved Jesus three times in John 21:15-17, he also recognized by the Spirit of God that Jesus was the Son of God, Matthew 16:15-17.

Now look what happened to Peter in Matthew 26:69-75 that he denied Jesus three times out of weakness and fear. He was a lost sheep from the flock, but was found again because he knew the voice of the Shepard and went on to feed the sheep of Christ.

 

[for_his_glory]

i tried that before i got saved i quit cussing tried doing better it didnt last long

Same here as I tried to work under my own righteousness and failed until I was brought under God's righteousness as He perfects me daily as I have fellowship with Him.

 

[for_his_glory]

We must learn to invest our time, our efforts, what we allow our bodies to see, to hear, to think and do, in things that benefit our inner man, that build up our inner man where the Spirit dwells to transform us into the image of Christ.

This is the very reason some of His sheep (people) become lost because they lack this understanding like I did when I became lost from the flock as I wasn't allowing the Holy Spirit to transform my inner man.