chestertonrules
Member
Does anyone actually believe this?
If so, how much faith is enough?
If so, how much faith is enough?
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Salvation by Faith Alone?
- Thread starter chestertonrules
- Start date
chestertonrules said:
MY COMMENTS: I'm not sure what you mean. If a person knows he is a sinner and has faith (that is believes) that Christ died for his sins and accepts Him as his Saviour, his faith is enough.
Now, we know, from Ephesians 2:8-9, that through God's grace faith itself is a gift, for it comes by the hearing of the Word. And this faith results in our good deeds, as we read in Ephesians 2:10:
"For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them." CV.
chestertonrules
Member
Bick said:
What if you don't do the good works you are created for?
Faith is a gift, but it can be destroyed by unrepentant sin.
watchman F
Member
The funny thing about faith alone is the only placed it is used in scripture is to say that man is NOT justified by faith alone. I have always wondered why this fallacy was taught.
chestertonrules
Member
Rev216 said:
Do you agree that persistent, unrepentant sin can destroy your faith?
francisdesales
Member
watchman F said:
Agreed.
Paul says effectively the same thing in 1 Cor 13:2, when he says even a "lot" of faith (enough to move mountains) is nothing, worthless, without love
Thus, how can faith alone save, if faith alone is NOTHING, according to Paul???
Without love, faith is nothing, so it cannot save alone.
The only thing that matters is faith working in love - according to Paul. Thus, the two should not be opposed to each other. Both are the results of Grace from God.
Regards
A number of passages say that we must "believe" in Jesus to have eternal life, as in this example:
John 3:14: "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,"
John 3:15: "that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."
John 3:16: ""For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
John 3:17: "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."
John 3:18: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
Three times we are told that those who believe in Jesus have eternal life instead of being condemned, and twice we are told that those who don't believe in Jesus are condemned. All five occurrences of the word "believe" in the above passage come from the Greek word pisteuo, which means: "To believe, have faith in, trust"
The Greek words for "believe" and "faith" are used with essentially the same meaning in the following passages:
Romans 3:22: "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,"
2 Corinthians 4:13: "It is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken." With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak,"
Galatians 3:22: "But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe."
Hebrews 11:6: "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."
So "believing in" Jesus means the same thing as "having faith in" Jesus.
John 3:14: "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,"
John 3:15: "that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."
John 3:16: ""For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
John 3:17: "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."
John 3:18: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
Three times we are told that those who believe in Jesus have eternal life instead of being condemned, and twice we are told that those who don't believe in Jesus are condemned. All five occurrences of the word "believe" in the above passage come from the Greek word pisteuo, which means: "To believe, have faith in, trust"
The Greek words for "believe" and "faith" are used with essentially the same meaning in the following passages:
Romans 3:22: "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,"
2 Corinthians 4:13: "It is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken." With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak,"
Galatians 3:22: "But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe."
Hebrews 11:6: "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."
So "believing in" Jesus means the same thing as "having faith in" Jesus.
chestertonrules
Member
awaken said:
None of those passsages say that faith alone is sufficient.
Faith is required, but it must be put into action in order to be kept alive.
Dead faith will not save you.
Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
chestertonrules said:
faith is outwardly visible in our actions. Our actions don't cause us to have faith, but instead faith leads us to perform actions of obedience. If we're not willing to demonstrate our faith outwardly then it's questionable whether we truly have faith in Jesus.
Drew
Member
It is true that good works that arise from unaided self-effort do not save. But Paul is clear - ultimate salvation is indeed based on "good works" - the good works that the Spirit produces in those who place faith in Christ.LaCrum said:
6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life
13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
Now watch the dancing that will go on to evade the clear implications of these texts.
LaCrum, I am not necessarily referring to you. Of course, if you choose to simply ignore these texts, I will indeed point this out.
Let’s break this down to what you’re really saying, in essence, is Jesus dying on the Cross not enough?
Isn’t the ENTIRE purpose of the OT to show us that good works cannot save us because we can never measure up to God’s standards and to point us to our Savior who can?
And don’t you find it strange that Paul also writes a couple verses later in Romans Chapter 3 that:
“Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.â€
and
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
Or perhaps we could head on over to Ephesians where Paul says:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
So one of two things could be happening here either 1) Paul is bipolar or 2) One of us is reading his writing out of context.
I think it’s strange that you’re trying to argue Paul as supporting faith + works = salvation, because just about Biblical Scholar attributes that formula to James who hits it pretty hard, while Paul consistently argues from the standpoint that faith alone = salvation.
But the problem is that even James doesn’t make the argument that good works gets you into Heaven, but rather that good works are outward proof that a believer has true faith in Christ.
But then it turns out Paul (in Ephesians) makes the same argument as James, that faith produces good works (or as I would say, the transforming power of Holy Spirit working within a believers lives produces good works).
If someone has sincere faith in Christ and thus enters into Covenant with him, can they stay unchanged within that relationship? I’d say absolutely not. But the rate at which we change depends upon our commitment to that relationship.
Drew
Member
Well, it depends. I believe that the Scriptures teach that man has to freely accept the gift of Jesus' death. You need to know that I am prepared to argue that there is no inconsistency at all between agreeing that Jesus’ death on the cross is enough and agreeing with Paul that ultimate salvation is based on good works. So, I am really not saying what you are implying that I am saying.LaCrum said:
No it is not. Please show us any text from the Old Testament that states that it is impossible for a person to do good works, if that person has the Spirit of God working in him / her.LaCrum said:
What is really strange is that people do not realize that Paul is talking about observing the Law of Moses. Let's be clear - a statement that the Jew cannot be saved by following the Law of Moses is not equivalent to a statement that we (Jew and Gentile) cannot be saved by good works.LaCrum said:
Do you require me to explain why it is that both these statements from Paul are about the Law of Moses, and not about a “general moral law about doing good works�
As has been extensively argued by me, and, of course, ignored by those who will not allow their position to be challenged, Paul is here again denying that the works of the Law of Moses do not justify. He is not making a liar out of himself in Romans 2 and 8 where he clearly states that ultimate salvation is indeed based on good works.LaCrum said:
Drew
Member
I entirely agree, one of us is indeed reading the texts out of context.LaCrum said:
And it is the one who takes clear references to the Law of Moses - and how doing the works of this law do not justify the Jew - and morphs such references into references to the entirely distinct concept of good works.
And, of course, it is not me who denies what Paul writes in Romans 2 and 8.
Ummm, except in these texts which you have hitherto ignored:LaCrum said:
6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life
13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
Let me ask you a direct question LaCrum: Does Paul mean what he says in these two statements or not? They are both clear statements that ultimate salvation is based on how we have lived.
So you clearly believe Jesus’ death on the cross was not enough. Interesting.
Let’s post the whole section is question:
God's Righteous Judgment
1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
What subject is Paul discussing in Romans 2:1-16? Is he discussing Salvation? No. He’s discussing judgment, he’s not discussing salvation. He’s showing how men are lost and condemned before a righteous judge, and that God rewards righteous men for their good works and punishes evil, he is not discussing the process by which they are declared righteous (that’s in Romans 3 and 4).
Yet doesn’t it seem that Romans 2:13 would also prove your point? The answer is no. What Paul gets at in the later chapters are that we can not follow the law without Jesus in our lives. Thus, why chapter 3 and 4 which immediately follow chapter 2 discuss how Salvation precedes good works.
Yet you cannot reconcile how Paul says, on numerous occasions, directly the opposite of what you’re interpretation of what you think he is saying:
Romans 4:1-5 What then shall we say that Abraham, our ancestor according to the flesh, has discovered regarding this matter? 2 For if Abraham was declared righteous by the works of the law, he has something to boast about (but not before God). 3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.†4 Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Good works are the result of our relationship and salvation through Christ, not the cause of it.
No amount of good works can atone us from the sins we’ve committed and will continue to commit as long as we’re here on earth. It is the sin that separates us from God, and Jesus innocent blood shed on our behalf atones for our sin and through him we are justified and sanctified before God.
Here are some further readings if you’re interested.
Acts 13:39
Romans 8:3
Galatians 2:16
Galatians 3:11
Acts 15: 1-29
Galations 2:14-21
Galatians 5:4
John 5:24
Acts 13:39
Romans 3:30
Romans 5:1
/thread
chestertonrules
Member
LaCrum said:
Who said works can save us?
The question is, does faith alone save us.
The answer is: NO
We must accept the grace of Jesus, pick up our cross and follow.
If we don't forgive others, we won't be forgiven.
If you put your hand to the plow then look back, you are not fit for the Kingdom.
The words are quite clear if you don't let preconceptions cloud your judgment.
chestertonrules
Member
LaCrum said:
Do you believe in universal salvation. If not, why not?
Don't you believe that Jesus' death on the cross was enough?
Drew
Member
Now come on. How can you say this. Again, you simply appear to ignore this clear statement:LaCrum said:
6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
We are not fools - Paul is clearly talking about salvation.
What is the awarding of eternal life, if not salvation?
Please answer this question directly.