Salvation by Faith Alone?

[Drew]

Now lets' put it in context...

And thinkest thou this.....that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

"Treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and .....judgment of God.

Who will render to every man according to his deeds...

So what are we talking about here? It's very simple....JUDGMENT OF GOD.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Tribulation and anguish upon those who do evil....glory, honour, and peace to those who do good.
These are the "treasures" being stored up...those who do evil will reap anguish in this life, and those who do good will reap peace and honor in this life. Is there one single mention here of salvation?

I have difficulty believing that you are not intentionally distorting the word of God. Are you not concerned about doing that Gd?

No mention of salvation? Are you serious?!!!!!

NET: He 1 will reward 2 each one according to his works: 3 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality,

NIV: God "will give to each person according to what he has done". To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life

NASB: who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

NLT: will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.

BBE: Who will give to every man his right reward: To those who go on with good works in the hope of glory and honour and salvation from death, he will give eternal life:

NRSV: For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

NKJV: who "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

Now let’s be clear: you are free to argue that despite what Paul says here, he is in the middle of some kind of argument that shows that eternal life is granted according to something other than “good worksâ€. I do not think such arguments work, but its fair to try to make them. Or you are free to argue for a translation error (good luck – you will be saying that all these translators have made a mistake).
But please – to say that these verses, read in isolation and as rendered in English, do not assert that eternal life is granted according to “good works†is quite frankly to lie or to not understand the English language.

Either stop spreading falsehood or seek help in understanding english, please.

 

[Drew]

I am competent in English , and you are wrong ! The key word is not deeds ! The key word is "seek" !

Christians "seek glory, immorality and/in eternal life"

You are either both lying or are both having difficulty understanding english.

The text says what it says. No competent, truth-telling person will read the following versions and not conclude that the writer is asserting eternal life is not be given to those who do various things, including, of course, the seeking of eternal life:

NET: He 1 will reward 2 each one according to his works: 3 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality,

NIV: God "will give to each person according to what he has done". To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life

NASB: who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

NLT: will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.

BBE: Who will give to every man his right reward: To those who go on with good works in the hope of glory and honour and salvation from death, he will give eternal life:

NRSV: For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

NKJV: who "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

Yes, Christians seek eternal life. But these versions all agree, God gives eternal life according to the deeds / behaviours. Now one of these behaviours is the seeking for eternal life. Fine. But that does not change the clear meaning of the text: eternal life is being given according to what people do.

 

[Drew]

Hi Drew

Now please give me the greek text please that backs up the words of the translations that say that - "He will give"

Remember, I told you that the word "in" was omitted from the originals , and then you asserted that the word "in" was not in the greek text. Now I am asking you to provide the greek text (and which greek text it was taken from) to support your use of the translations that assert or should I say insert these words .

What an outrageous request. I am, frankly, surprised that the moderators put up with this.

In the past, you have made the outrageous, and I mean outrageous claim, that the orginal greek contained the word "in". When pressed repeatedly to support this claim, you did a dance.

Here is the Greek of 2:7 as per the scholars who put together the NET bible:

toiv men kay upomonhn ergou agayou doxan kai timhn kai afyarsian zhtousin zwhn aiwnion

I have checked - none of these greek words mean "in".

Now. Do you stand by your assertion that you have knowledge, that the NET scholars do not have, that this greek version is different than the original?

If so, I suggest you stop wasting your time here and claim your position as a revolutionary Biblical scholar.

 

[Drew]

I am convinced that MM and glorydaz are trolls. I have placed them both on "ignore" and will not be reading any more of their posts. If other posters wish to comment on my material, and yes, challenge me on it, I will be happy to engage you.

 

[chestertonrules]

[
Let's cut to the chase...our obedience doesn't even save us. Christ's obedience and faith in His work on the cross is what saves us. .

Do you believe that everyone is saved, or that God picks some people before they are even born for eternal torture?

No to both.

So what does Christ's obedience have to do with an individual's salvation? It that is what saves us, then why aren't all men saved?

 

[chestertonrules]

I am convinced that MM and glorydaz are trolls. I have placed them both on "ignore" and will not be reading any more of their posts. If other posters wish to comment on my material, and yes, challenge me on it, I will be happy to engage you.

I think there is a big difference between the two. glorydaz is stubborn, but his posts are rational!

 

[glorydaz]

I am convinced that MM and glorydaz are trolls. I have placed them both on "ignore" and will not be reading any more of their posts. If other posters wish to comment on my material, and yes, challenge me on it, I will be happy to engage you.

I think there is a big difference between the two. glorydaz is stubborn, but his post are rational!

My goodness....now I'm accused of being a troll. :nag

Drew apparently doesn't like to have his posts challenged in any way. Perhaps he only likes to "engage" those who agree with him. The fact remains...good works do not save us. Good works are the evidence of one's salvation. :yes

 

[glorydaz]

I'll stick with the King James since it doesn't attempt to add to the meaning of the verse, and doesn't tempt one to take it out of it's proper context.

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

No gd no!!! Are you intentionally omitting verse 6? If you are playing games, please stop - this is the word of God. The English is crystal clear in all versions including the KJV:

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Take this sentence to any one who is competent in English. They will tell you that this is a statement that eternal life will be given according to deeds. Consider this statement.

"Mother will reward the children according to their deeds; To those who do good and seek ice cream, ice cream"

This is perhaps an awkward way to put things, but this is indeed a statement that children who do good and seek ice cream will, in fact, get ice cream.

And all the other translations are the same - do not misrepresent the truth!

If you have some difficulty with English, then fine. But there is no doubt what these two verses are saying, at least as English statements viewed in isolation.

I didn't omit it...I gave it the star position. Maybe you didn't recognize it because it didn't say, "he will give" in front of eternal life. My KJ does not have those words, and they have only succeeded in changing the entire meaning of the verse...which is why you're having a problem making it fit in with the rest of Paul's teaching and the entire context of the verses surrounding it.

BTW...it isn't a good idea to form a doctrine based on verse taken "in isolation".

 

[glorydaz]

I have difficulty believing that you are not intentionally distorting the word of God. Are you not concerned about doing that Gd?

No mention of salvation? Are you serious?!!!!!

NET: He 1 will reward 2 each one according to his works: 3 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality,

NIV: God "will give to each person according to what he has done". To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life

NASB: who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

NLT: will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.

BBE: Who will give to every man his right reward: To those who go on with good works in the hope of glory and honour and salvation from death, he will give eternal life:

NRSV: For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

NKJV: who "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

Now let’s be clear: you are free to argue that despite what Paul says here, he is in the middle of some kind of argument that shows that eternal life is granted according to something other than “good worksâ€. I do not think such arguments work, but its fair to try to make them. Or you are free to argue for a translation error (good luck – you will be saying that all these translators have made a mistake).
But please – to say that these verses, read in isolation and as rendered in English, do not assert that eternal life is granted according to “good works†is quite frankly to lie or to not understand the English language.

Either stop spreading falsehood or seek help in understanding english, please.

I'm certainly getting tired of hearing you accusing me of spreading falsehood. If this is the way you conduct a "debate" then you shouldn't have been claiming I don't know how to properly debate.

I'm merely trying to help you understand what Paul is saying...even though you are determined to keep that verse "in isolation". Paul is saying all will be judged on their deeds. The fact that he goes on to explain quite clearly that good deeds do not cover sin...that only grace and faith do that is very critical to what Paul is saying. They may seek after eternal life, but the wages of sin is death. The judgment will be a weighing of good deeds against sin. Good deeds do not cover sin...only the blood does that. Which is why Paul spends so much time convincing the hearer that all men sin and God will search each heart for any and all sin.

 

[glorydaz]

What an outrageous request. I am, frankly, surprised that the moderators put up with this.

I'm surprised they put up with you calling people liars. :yes

 

[glorydaz]

Do you believe that everyone is saved, or that God picks some people before they are even born for eternal torture?

No to both.

So what does Christ's obedience have to do with an individual's salvation? It that is what saves us, then why aren't all men saved?

Because all men do not partake of that forgiveness through faith.

It's faith in Christ's work on the cross that saves us.

 

[Drew]

glorydaz is stubborn, but his posts are rational!

The evidence suggests otherwise. Here is something that gd posted in relations to Romans 2:3-6 (I added emphasis):

Tribulation and anguish upon those who do evil....glory, honour, and peace to those who do good.These are the "treasures" being stored up...those who do evil will reap anguish in this life, and those who do good will reap peace and honor in this life. Is there one single mention here of salvation?

No mention of salvation? Excuse me. gd is either intentionally misprepresenting the truth or has other problems. Look at what verses 6 and 7 say together in various translations:

NET: He 1 will reward 2 each one according to his works: 3 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality,

NIV: God "will give to each person according to what he has done". To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life

NASB: who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

NLT: will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.

BBE: Who will give to every man his right reward: To those who go on with good works in the hope of glory and honour and salvation from death, he will give eternal life:

NRSV: For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

NKJV: who "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

 

[chestertonrules]

glorydaz is stubborn, but his posts are rational!

The evidence suggests otherwise. Here is something that gd posted in relations to Romans 2:3-6 (I added emphasis):

Tribulation and anguish upon those who do evil....glory, honour, and peace to those who do good.These are the "treasures" being stored up...those who do evil will reap anguish in this life, and those who do good will reap peace and honor in this life. Is there one single mention here of salvation?

No mention of salvation? Excuse me. gd is either intentionally misprepresenting the truth or has other problems. Look at what verses 6 and 7 say together in various translations:

NET: He 1 will reward 2 each one according to his works: 3 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality,

NIV: God "will give to each person according to what he has done". To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life

NASB: who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

NLT: will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.

BBE: Who will give to every man his right reward: To those who go on with good works in the hope of glory and honour and salvation from death, he will give eternal life:

NRSV: For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

NKJV: who "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

Usually rational then. :D

 

[chestertonrules]

Because all men do not partake of that forgiveness through faith.

It's faith in Christ's work on the cross that saves us.

If it's Christ's work, then what work does the saved man do that the unsaved man doesn't do?

 

[Mysteryman]

glorydaz is stubborn, but his posts are rational!

The evidence suggests otherwise. Here is something that gd posted in relations to Romans 2:3-6 (I added emphasis):

Tribulation and anguish upon those who do evil....glory, honour, and peace to those who do good.These are the "treasures" being stored up...those who do evil will reap anguish in this life, and those who do good will reap peace and honor in this life. Is there one single mention here of salvation?

No mention of salvation? Excuse me. gd is either intentionally misprepresenting the truth or has other problems. Look at what verses 6 and 7 say together in various translations:

NET: He 1 will reward 2 each one according to his works: 3 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality,

NIV: God "will give to each person according to what he has done". To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life

NASB: who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

NLT: will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.

BBE: Who will give to every man his right reward: To those who go on with good works in the hope of glory and honour and salvation from death, he will give eternal life:

NRSV: For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

NKJV: who "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

Drew

May I make a suggestion ? Let us allow God to give the increase, shall we ?

 

[glorydaz]

Because all men do not partake of that forgiveness through faith.

It's faith in Christ's work on the cross that saves us.

If it's Christ's work, then what work does the saved man do that the unsaved man doesn't do?

The unsaved do "good deeds" according to their own understanding and in their own strength, and for their own glory before men. The motives are selfish whether they admit them or not. The saved produce the fruit of the spirit...which shows forth the love of God...not in their own strength or with their own understanding, but in obedience to the Spirit within. The motives are unselfish and for God's glory...not their own.

 

[glorydaz]

glorydaz is stubborn, but his posts are rational!

The evidence suggests otherwise. Here is something that gd posted in relations to Romans 2:3-6 (I added emphasis):

Tribulation and anguish upon those who do evil....glory, honour, and peace to those who do good.These are the "treasures" being stored up...those who do evil will reap anguish in this life, and those who do good will reap peace and honor in this life. Is there one single mention here of salvation?

No mention of salvation? Excuse me. gd is either intentionally misprepresenting the truth or has other problems. Look at what verses 6 and 7 say together in various translations:

NET: He 1 will reward 2 each one according to his works: 3 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality,

NIV: God "will give to each person according to what he has done". To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life

NASB: who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

NLT: will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.

BBE: Who will give to every man his right reward: To those who go on with good works in the hope of glory and honour and salvation from death, he will give eternal life:

NRSV: For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

NKJV: who "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

Stop slandering me, Drew.

I could care less about your "various" translations". It's clear not all translations are accurate. Which is why I stick to the KJ...especially when something is added that speaks contrary to the whole Word of God. You can put up all the wisdom of men, including Wright, that you want and it won't impress me in the least. The fact that you rip that verse out of it's context and don't understand what Paul is teaching in Romans shows clearly you're the one preaching false doctrine. So far you spend more time calling me a liar and accusing me of deliberately misrepresting the Word than you do anything else. You're preaching what all cults preach and, therefore, you have no room to accuse me of anything.

Besides...you don't even believe in eternal life since you claim we can lose our salvation, so why are you making such a big deal about someone doing good deed to gain eternal life. You're pretty confused about eternal...you claim it's given and then you claim it's not. You claim we're only justified for a time and saved in part. You boast in your own efforts and say Jesus is unable to keep those He's saved. Basically, you don't know the difference between justification and sanctification, but you hang onto this one verse "in isolation" as if it's your life raft. If that's what you're counting on then you should rethink. Calling me a liar just removed all your good works.

 

[jasoncran]

locked pending moderator review.

 

[doubting thomas]

1 CORINTHIANS 13:13: And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

does that mean charity, which is a deed, is more important than faith?

1 JOHN 3:18: let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed

GALATIANS 5:22-3: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law

so how can someone be guided by the holy spirit into faith if they have no deeds to prove it? which seems to lead me to...

MARK 7:6 This people honoureth me with their lips but their heart is far from me.

JAMES 2:14-26
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? ... faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do ... As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

so, faith is meaningless if you dont show it with your actions. and actions would include things like "loving your enemy" and "give everything you own to the poor if you want to follow" jesus.

1 PETER 2:15 – it is god's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men

good place to end (no irony intended)

 

[chestertonrules]

[
Besides...you don't even believe in eternal life since you claim we can lose our salvation, so why are you making such a big deal about someone doing good deed to gain eternal life. .

Sorry, but that doesn't make sense.

Just because he believes that salvation can be lost you can't assume he doesn't believe in eternal life.

Jesus made a big deal about doing good deeds.

Why did he do that?