Salvation by Faith Alone?

[Pogo]

Okay, boys and girls, let a legalist weigh in on this too!

Please remember the scariest, to me, verse in the Bible speaks directly to this issue.

Let me somewhat paraphrased Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter in to the Kingdom of Heaven, but those who DO the will of my Father, who is in Heaven.

Plus many, many, many, more passages that tell us to DO as commanded.

John 8:51 - which is really a better, more fleshed out, John 3:16!

John 14:15

...And on and on and on...do your own search...

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[Mysteryman]

What subject is Paul discussing in Romans 2:1-16? Is he discussing Salvation? No.

Now come on. How can you say this. Again, you simply appear to ignore this clear statement:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

We are not fools - Paul is clearly talking about salvation.

What is the awarding of eternal life, if not salvation?

Please answer this question directly.

Hi Drew

My KJV does not say "he will give" eternal life > Romans 2:7

What translation says it the way you have quoted here ?

 

[Drew]

Yet doesn’t it seem that Romans 2:13 would also prove your point? The answer is no. What Paul gets at in the later chapters are that we can not follow the law without Jesus in our lives.

Agree. I am not denying this. But Paul means what he says - the person with Jesus in their life will be justified by what they do.

Again, why do you think you can ignore Romans 2:6-7?

Thus, why chapter 3 and 4 which immediately follow chapter 2 discuss how Salvation precedes good works.

Paul does not have a "one-time" model of salvation. As you probably know, Paul refers to salvation as a a present thing and he refers to a future salvation. You need to abandon your own "salvation is a one timer" model and use Paul's model.

Yet you cannot reconcile how Paul says, on numerous occasions, directly the opposite of what you’re interpretation of what you think he is saying:

No. The problem is that you do not take Paul seriously in the details. You deny what Paul writes in Romans 2:6-7, where Paul clearly states that eternal life is granted based on what we do.

Why do you deny this, LaCrum?:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

You are intepreting my arguments through your model which has no place for "present salvation" and "future salvation". I am following Paul's model - where faith in Christ in the present assures our future salvation because the Spirit acts to transform us so that we do the good works that pass the Romans 2 judgement.

Do you, or do you not, believe that Romans 2:6-7 is part of the canon of inspired scripture? If you do, you embrace future justification according to what we have done (through the Spirit).

 

[Drew]

Hi Drew

My KJV does not say "he will give" eternal life > Romans 2:7

What translation says it the way you have quoted here ?

My version was the NIV.

But all other translations are clear - Paul is indeed talking about the granting of eternal life.

 

[Drew]

Romans 4:1-5 What then shall we say that Abraham, our ancestor according to the flesh, has discovered regarding this matter? 2 For if Abraham was declared righteous by the works of the law, he has something to boast about (but not before God). 3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.†4 Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.

This is in no way a denial of ultimate salvation by good works. And that's a darn good thing, becuause otherwise Paul has contradicted himself from Romans 2 and 8.

IRomans 4:1-5, is often used to argue that Paul cannot have meant what he wrote in Romans 2 (and Romans 8 for that matter) about how eternal life is granted according to “how we liveâ€. Here is the relevant material, and I include stuff from the end of Romans 3 for context – remember, it is not Paul who inserts “chapter breaksâ€:

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith (is one. 31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we (establish the Law. 1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, …

A vital point is to note that context clearly shows that the “works†in 4:2 are the works of the Law of Moses. In 3:28, Paul talks about how men are not justified by the works of the Law. It should be clear that this is a reference to the Law of Moses, not to “good works†generally. But even if this were not clear from 3:28, 3:29 seals the deal – Paul is talking about the works of the Law of Moses since the Jew who believes that the works of the Law of Moses justifies could claim that the Gentile, who is not under the Law of Moses, would be excluded from justification. And Paul clearly wants to argue that the Gentile is also a candidate for justification.

So there is really no doubt – Paul is making an argument about the Law of Moses, not good works in general. So why anybody thinks 4:2 is about “good works†is a mystery to me – Paul does not arbitrarily change topics without notice. No - in 4:2 Paul says Abraham was not justified by doing the works of the Law of Moses.

So now we come to the workman. I trust we all understand that this is a metaphor. As such, it cannot be taken literally in all its details – it is a comparison, like all metaphors. Paul has just finished arguing that Abraham, like any other Jew, cannot claim that God “owes†justification to the Jew, and only the Jew, in virtue of the cultural marker of the Law of Moses. The issue to this point is not “does someone who does good works have a claim on Godâ€, it is “does the Jew – the one who is under the Law of Moses – have a claim on Godâ€.

The workman expects to be paid because he has done something. Fine. What is the parallel to Abraham? The parallel is that Abraham might think he has claim on justification because of his obedience to the Law of Moses, not because he has done “good worksâ€. Paul is no doubt spinning in his grave, wondering how people have ignored the flow of the argument and instead impose their own “Pal must be denying justification by good works†scheme onto his text.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi Drew

My KJV does not say "he will give" eternal life > Romans 2:7

What translation says it the way you have quoted here ?

My version was the NIV.

But all other translations are clear - Paul is indeed talking about the granting of eternal life.

Hi Drew

In my opinion, the NIV is one of the worst translations out there. I am wondering if you used the NIV because of your beliefs ?

The reason I ask, is because to the best of my knowledge. This is the only translation that is worded this way. Could you provide another translation that would support the NIV, wording of Romans 2:7 ? And one other question, if you don't mind. Would you provide the greek text which shows/provides the words -- "he will give" -- within it ?

Thanks - MM

 

[glorydaz]

Ummm, except in these texts which you have hitherto ignored:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

Let me ask you a direct question LaCrum: Does Paul mean what he says in these two statements or not? They are both clear statements that ultimate salvation is based on how we have lived.

So you clearly believe Jesus’ death on the cross was not enough. Interesting.

Let’s post the whole section is question:

God's Righteous Judgment
1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

What subject is Paul discussing in Romans 2:1-16? Is he discussing Salvation? No. He’s discussing judgment, he’s not discussing salvation. He’s showing how men are lost and condemned before a righteous judge, and that God rewards righteous men for their good works and punishes evil, he is not discussing the process by which they are declared righteous (that’s in Romans 3 and 4).

Yet doesn’t it seem that Romans 2:13 would also prove your point? The answer is no. What Paul gets at in the later chapters are that we can not follow the law without Jesus in our lives. Thus, why chapter 3 and 4 which immediately follow chapter 2 discuss how Salvation precedes good works.

Yet you cannot reconcile how Paul says, on numerous occasions, directly the opposite of what you’re interpretation of what you think he is saying:

Romans 4:1-5 What then shall we say that Abraham, our ancestor according to the flesh, has discovered regarding this matter? 2 For if Abraham was declared righteous by the works of the law, he has something to boast about (but not before God). 3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.†4 Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Good works are the result of our relationship and salvation through Christ, not the cause of it.

No amount of good works can atone us from the sins we’ve committed and will continue to commit as long as we’re here on earth. It is the sin that separates us from God, and Jesus innocent blood shed on our behalf atones for our sin and through him we are justified and sanctified before God.

Here are some further readings if you’re interested.
Acts 13:39
Romans 8:3
Galatians 2:16
Galatians 3:11
Acts 15: 1-29
Galations 2:14-21
Galatians 5:4
John 5:24
Acts 13:39
Romans 3:30
Romans 5:1

/thread

:amen

 

[glorydaz]

Hi Drew

My KJV does not say "he will give" eternal life > Romans 2:7

What translation says it the way you have quoted here ?

My version was the NIV.

But all other translations are clear - Paul is indeed talking about the granting of eternal life.

Paul is speaking of those who are seeking eternal life....then he goes on.

The righteousness of God is by faith....upon all that believe. There is no difference between the Jew and Gentile for all have sinned.

20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Man is justified "freely by his grace...that Christ is the justifier of him which BELIEVES.

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Why is this verse ignored? We see the "law of faith". Jews and Gentiles...This is why "boasting" is exluded. It is faith and faith alone that justifies. Our good deeds justify us before men but not before God. It goes right along with "by their fruits you will know them". Our good deeds that follow AFTER being justified by faith are a result of faith. They do not justify or save us. We are saved by grace through faith. Any attempt to add works to that formula is robbing God of the free gift we're offered. We are freely offered grace and justified by believing in Jesus' WORK on the cross.

27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[jasoncran]

by faith we please the lord. we acknowledge him. when we do it will be accompanied by good works.

i cant love my wife without seeking ways to please her. but i can please her(do things) without love.

 

[Drew]

The reason I ask, is because to the best of my knowledge. This is the only translation that is worded this way. Could you provide another translation that would support the NIV, wording of Romans 2:7 ?

All right, it is time to put to bed this absurd idea that Romans 2:6-7, viewed in isolation at least, does not make a statement about how eternal life is granted according to what we have done. Each of the following translations are clear: Paul says that eternal life is granted according to what people have done:

NET: He 1 will reward 2 each one according to his works: 3 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality,

NIV: God "will give to each person according to what he has done". To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life

NASB: who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

NLT: will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.

BBE: Who will give to every man his right reward: To those who go on with good works in the hope of glory and honour and salvation from death, he will give eternal life:

NRSV: For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

NKJV: who "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

Now let’s be clear: you are free to argue that despite what Paul says here, he is in the middle of some kind of argument that shows that eternal life is granted according to something other than “good worksâ€. I do not think such arguments work, but its fair to try to make them. Or you are free to argue for a translation error (good luck – you will be saying that all these translators have made a mistake).

But please – to say that these verses, read in isolation and as rendered in English, do not assert that eternal life is granted according to “good works†is quite frankly to lie or to not understand the English language.

 

[Drew]

Paul is speaking of those who are seeking eternal life....then he goes on.

No gd!!!

Yes, Paul talks about people seeking eternal life. But, and I am stunned you do not see this - he also says that those people are granted eternal life based on this seeking, and on their "good works".

See my previous post. Anyone who denies that Romans 2:6-7, as rendered in English and as an isolated text, asserts that eternal life is granted according to good works is either lying, or unable to comprehend English.

There are no other options. Enough of this, please.

 

[Drew]

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Why is this verse ignored?

This verse, of course, is not ignored. Although you and others will no doubt refuse to see it, the idea that we are justified freely by grace is entirely consistent with the assertion that we are ultimately justified by good works. The reason: we are only enabled to do the good works by the Spirit, given to us as a free act of grace.

Now the question is this: Are you simply going to ignore what I have written? Or simply state that I am mistaken? Or are you actually going to engage my post and explain why the concept of grace is fundamentally inconsistent with the notion of ultimate salvation by good works.

 

[glorydaz]

Paul is speaking of those who are seeking eternal life....then he goes on.

No gd!!!

Yes, Paul talks about people seeking eternal life. But, and I am stunned you do not see this - he also says that those people are granted eternal life based on this seeking, and on their "good works".

See my previous post. Anyone who denies that Romans 2:6-7, as rendered in English and as an isolated text, asserts that eternal life is granted according to good works is either lying, or unable to comprehend English.

There are no other options. Enough of this, please.

I've never seen someone get so over-wrought over one verse....... :crazy

Here's the verse "in isolation"...and it certainly is a good example of why one should never take a verse out of context. :yes

It can be somewhat vague and confusing unless words are added by certain translations....then it becomes down right misleading. I'll stick with the King James since it doesn't attempt to add to the meaning of the verse, and doesn't tempt one to take it out of it's proper context.

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Now lets' put it in context...

And thinkest thou this.....that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

"Treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and .....judgment of God.

Who will render to every man according to his deeds...

So what are we talking about here? It's very simple....JUDGMENT OF GOD.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Tribulation and anguish upon those who do evil....glory, honour, and peace to those who do good.
These are the "treasures" being stored up...those who do evil will reap anguish in this life, and those who do good will reap peace and honor in this life. Is there one single mention here of salvation? What do we see? JUDGMENT and natural consequences right here on earth. The goodness of God leads to repentance....will the evil repent of their outward evil? Will the doers of good deeds repent of their sins of the heart? Whichever...these are treasures they are storing up for the day of judgment when we will be JUDGED on our deeds.

There is no respect of persons...the Jews will be judged under the law and the Gentiles will be judged according to the dictates of their conscience...the unwritten law makes them a law unto themselves. The "doers" not the"hearers". As a Gentile, if I fail to obey the dictates of my conscience, I will be judged guilty. I know I shouldn't lie, but I lie anyway.

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned with out law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

We know the Jews are without excuse...now we see the Gentiles are without excuse.

What is to be JUDGED? The secrets of men.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Then Paul goes on to explain about how God looks at the heart...circumcision or non-circumcision not withstanding. There is no difference.

Then, as I pointed out before, Paul goes on to ask...is God unrighteous for taking vengeance on man? How shall God JUDGE the world? ....why yet am I also judged as a sinner? Is this true? Is Paul, himself to be judged a sinner? This is what Paul has been getting to all along. All men will be judged and found to be sinners...for all have sinned and come short.

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

And we get to what Paul has been aiming for since he started this letter. Justification by faith. He has successfully stopped every mouth and proved the whole world guilty before God.

Paul is not just talking about the deeds of the law of Moses, but the deeds of the law written on the conscience of man as well. By the deeds of any and every law...there shall no flesh be justified in God's sight, for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. What have we seen up to this point? JUDGMENT. What do we see in this verse? GRACE.

There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The dead will be judged out of the "books" according to their "works". This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 2. Notice there is also a "book of life". That is the Lamb's book which we will read about in a moment.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The other book, the book of life is where the believer is written. Our sins are not imputed unto us. God made Jesus to be sin for us....the Lamb of God...the Lamb's book of life. It's a question of sin. The wages of which are death...those covered by the blood have passed from death into life. Good deeds do not cover sin. Only the sinless blood of the Lamb can do that.

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[glorydaz]

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Why is this verse ignored?

This verse, of course, is not ignored. Although you and others will no doubt refuse to see it, the idea that we are justified freely by grace is entirely consistent with the assertion that we are ultimately justified by good works. The reason: we are only enabled to do the good works by the Spirit, given to us as a free act of grace.

Now the question is this: Are you simply going to ignore what I have written? Or simply state that I am mistaken? Or are you actually going to engage my post and explain why the concept of grace is fundamentally inconsistent with the notion of ultimate salvation by good works.

For some reason, you will not let go of "we are ultimately justified by good works". We are not "ultimately" or otherwise justified by good works. Until you stop saying that, I will keep standing against it. You can not add to the work of the cross...or the scripture.. because you've found one verse you can claim says something it doesn't.

Grace is a free gift. It isn't a free gift if we have to perform to receive it.

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It was given while we were yet sinners.

And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Not according to our works...

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to His mercy he saved us....

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

The Word is so clear....there are so many verses that say without a doubt that we are not justified or saved by our works, deeds, or righteous acts. Yet we continue to see claims being made that works ultimately save us.

The very idea that you and certain others claim you don't fit into the "all men sin" category, and count yourselves "righteous" just doesn't add up. When I hear you making the claims you do concerning being justified by works...even when you try to claim they are the works of the Spirit, I'm reminded of this verse in Luke. There is a reason the Word speaks of men having no reason to boast and it speaks to this very issue of being saved by any works of righteousness or deeds or works of the law or conscience. It just isn't right...all the glory goes to God for our salvation. Our one "work" is to believe. We're justified before God by that...end of story.

And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Let's cut to the chase...our obedience doesn't even save us. Christ's obedience and faith in His work on the cross is what saves us. We obey because God has given us a new heart...one of flesh and not of stone. We show forth the Love of God when the Spirit is in us. We can't take...nor should we take...ANY of the glory for our salvation, our keeping, or our obedience. By saving us, He has ordained that we follow His voice. When we don't, He chastens us. We cannot "lose" our salvation like it's a toy that's been given at Christmas and we have to give it back if we aren't good little girls and boys. We're kept by the power of Almighty God, born of the Spirit and sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[chestertonrules]

[
Let's cut to the chase...our obedience doesn't even save us. Christ's obedience and faith in His work on the cross is what saves us. .

Do you believe that everyone is saved, or that God picks some people before they are even born for eternal torture?

 

[glorydaz]

[
Let's cut to the chase...our obedience doesn't even save us. Christ's obedience and faith in His work on the cross is what saves us. .

Do you believe that everyone is saved, or that God picks some people before they are even born for eternal torture?

No to both.

 

[Mysteryman]

The reason I ask, is because to the best of my knowledge. This is the only translation that is worded this way. Could you provide another translation that would support the NIV, wording of Romans 2:7 ?

All right, it is time to put to bed this absurd idea that Romans 2:6-7, viewed in isolation at least, does not make a statement about how eternal life is granted according to what we have done. Each of the following translations are clear: Paul says that eternal life is granted according to what people have done:

NET: He 1 will reward 2 each one according to his works: 3 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality,

NIV: God "will give to each person according to what he has done". To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life

NASB: who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

NLT: will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.

BBE: Who will give to every man his right reward: To those who go on with good works in the hope of glory and honour and salvation from death, he will give eternal life:

NRSV: For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

NKJV: who "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

Now let’s be clear: you are free to argue that despite what Paul says here, he is in the middle of some kind of argument that shows that eternal life is granted according to something other than “good worksâ€. I do not think such arguments work, but its fair to try to make them. Or you are free to argue for a translation error (good luck – you will be saying that all these translators have made a mistake).

But please – to say that these verses, read in isolation and as rendered in English, do not assert that eternal life is granted according to “good works†is quite frankly to lie or to not understand the English language.

Hi Drew

Now please give me the greek text please that backs up the words of the translations that say that - "He will give"

Remember, I told you that the word "in" was omitted from the originals , and then you asserted that the word "in" was not in the greek text. Now I am asking you to provide the greek text (and which greek text it was taken from) to support your use of the translations that assert or should I say insert these words .

 

[Mysteryman]

The reason I ask, is because to the best of my knowledge. This is the only translation that is worded this way. Could you provide another translation that would support the NIV, wording of Romans 2:7 ?

All right, it is time to put to bed this absurd idea that Romans 2:6-7, viewed in isolation at least, does not make a statement about how eternal life is granted according to what we have done. Each of the following translations are clear: Paul says that eternal life is granted according to what people have done:

NET: He 1 will reward 2 each one according to his works: 3 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality,

NIV: God "will give to each person according to what he has done". To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life

NASB: who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

NLT: will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.

BBE: Who will give to every man his right reward: To those who go on with good works in the hope of glory and honour and salvation from death, he will give eternal life:

NRSV: For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

NKJV: who "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

Now let’s be clear: you are free to argue that despite what Paul says here, he is in the middle of some kind of argument that shows that eternal life is granted according to something other than “good worksâ€. I do not think such arguments work, but its fair to try to make them. Or you are free to argue for a translation error (good luck – you will be saying that all these translators have made a mistake).

But please – to say that these verses, read in isolation and as rendered in English, do not assert that eternal life is granted according to “good works†is quite frankly to lie or to not understand the English language.

Hi Drew

Now I am going to ask you to look at each individual translation you brought to this conversation. Now after taking a good look at each one, do you notice anything in paticular that catches your eye ?

I will give you an example -- Put the KJV along side the NKJV , and read each one, word for word at the same time. What do you notice ?

Moving words within the verse is like having the horse pulling the wagon , and in another translation, we see the wagon pulling the horse. < Or, didn't you notice this ?

I would like to talk to you about the other translations as well, if we can agree on what is happening with these two translations here - the KJV and the NKJV.

Let me try and help you out here by giving you an example >

Two statements with very similar wording >

1. I went to the store, with money , to buy food for my family .

2. I went to the store with my family , to buy food, with money.

# 1 - does not say that this person had any family memebers , when this person went to the store to buy food with money.

#2 - States clearly that the family was with this person, when they went to the store to buy food , with money.

#1 - is singular and # 2 - is plural

Moving words , changes the meaning, correct ? And especially if certain words are added to make the statement say something different.

You blew a gasket when I told you that the word "in" was omitted from the originals. You jumped up and down and said that the word "in" is not in the greek texts. And as of yet, you have not provided any of the originals that will back up the greek text, which you claim does not have the word "in" in the text. ( And we all know that there are no originals to support any of the many differing greek texts )

Now, you break your own rules, by making claims according to what certain translations say according to their wording. While you totally ignore the greek text altogether. In other words, you put emphasis on translations when it suits your stance. And when it suits your stance, you put empahsis on the greek text, and not on the translational error or insertions or omissions.

This is called wavering Drew. When one has a foundation by which one uses for reading the scriptures. One should never waver on how they decide what the scriptures are telling us.

Your agenda is to try and prove your own private interpretation to be true. And in doing so, you have no foundation from which to draw from. So you draw from your denomination view on this matter, instead of being on the foundation of the scriptures themselves. That is, that the scriptures do not contradict themselves. You go to extreme lengths to try and prove your point. And breaking your own rules does not matter to you , because your stance is more important than the truth.

You are claiming eteranl life by your good works. Yet, you have not given which amount of good works will give you eternal life. Again, you show us no standard by which one can try and grasp what you are saying.

You have claimed two things - 1. that you get eternal life by your own good works , and - 2. Even after you get eternal life, by your own works, you then can also loose it just as easily as you attained eternal life. < So again, what is the standard for attaining and what is the standard for loosing eternal life ?

Bless - MM

 

[Drew]

I'll stick with the King James since it doesn't attempt to add to the meaning of the verse, and doesn't tempt one to take it out of it's proper context.

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

No gd no!!! Are you intentionally omitting verse 6? If you are playing games, please stop - this is the word of God. The English is crystal clear in all versions including the KJV:

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Take this sentence to any one who is competent in English. They will tell you that this is a statement that eternal life will be given according to deeds. Consider this statement.

"Mother will reward the children according to their deeds; To those who do good and seek ice cream, ice cream"

This is perhaps an awkward way to put things, but this is indeed a statement that children who do good and seek ice cream will, in fact, get ice cream.

And all the other translations are the same - do not misrepresent the truth!

If you have some difficulty with English, then fine. But there is no doubt what these two verses are saying, at least as English statements viewed in isolation.

 

[Mysteryman]

I'll stick with the King James since it doesn't attempt to add to the meaning of the verse, and doesn't tempt one to take it out of it's proper context.

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

No gd no!!! Are you intentionally omitting verse 6? If you are playing games, please stop - this is the word of God. The English is crystal clear in all versions including the KJV:

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Take this sentence to any one who is competent in English. They will tell you that this is a statement that eternal life will be given according to deeds. Consider this statement.

"Mother will reward the children according to their deeds; To those who do good and seek ice cream, ice cream"

This is perhaps an awkward way to put things, but this is indeed a statement that children who do good and seek ice cream will, in fact, get ice cream.

And all the other translations are the same - do not misrepresent the truth!

If you have some difficulty with English, then fine. But there is no doubt what these two verses are saying, at least as English statements viewed in isolation.

I am competent in English , and you are wrong ! The key word is not deeds ! The key word is "seek" !

Christians "seek glory, immorality and/in eternal life"