Salvation: Individual? Corporate? Both? Neither?

[Guest]

There have been a few posts which directly suggest or hint at salvation being a matter between the individual and God alone. Is salvation a purely individual issue? Or is this Western / American individualism creeping into our theology? Could salvation be corporate? Could it be both individual and corporate? Is it something else? Could it depend on culture?

Let's hear what you have to say.

 

[JoJo]

How could it not be an individual matter? One makes the decision to follow Christ by himself. No one can make it for him.

Maybe I'm just not understanding the question.

 

[Drew]

There have been a few posts which directly suggest or hint at salvation being a matter between the individual and God alone. Is salvation a purely individual issue? Or is this Western / American individualism creeping into our theology? Could salvation be corporate? Could it be both individual and corporate? Is it something else? Could it depend on culture?

I think you raise a very good question, specifically when you at least open up the possibility that we may be "stuck" in western individualism. I think we are - a first century Jew would have thought far more corporately.

And I think this individualism has tainted the way we read passages like the famous Romans 9 account of vessels of destruction and vessels of mercy. I think that, in Romans 9 at least, Paul is indeed mounting an argument about salvation at the "corporate" level. I am not denying that, as per what Jojo has written, that, ultimately, salvation is an individual matter. But, in Romans 9 at least, Paul is still making an argument at the corporate level.

 

[follower of Christ]

Salvation is an individual thing.
MY salvation is based on MY relationship with God, I dont get to ride the coattails of anyone else.
Corporately we ALL form the body, but that doesnt mean MY salvation is contingent on anyone elses.

I have to admit the question confuses me as this would seem to be a pretty basic thing to understand that MY salvation is based on MY belief and MY repentance...

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(Rom 10:9 KJV)

Nothing there that would indicate that I must be saved corporately or not at all.
*I* must confess and *I* must believe.
The confession and belief of others cannot save me, nor can my own save anyone else.

As far as the rest of my walk, we ARE called to fellowship with our brethren. But that doesnt save us otherwise church attendance would be enough.

 

[follower of Christ]

There have been a few posts which directly suggest or hint at salvation being a matter between the individual and God alone. Is salvation a purely individual issue? Or is this Western / American individualism creeping into our theology? Could salvation be corporate? Could it be both individual and corporate? Is it something else? Could it depend on culture?

I think you raise a very good question, specifically when you at least open up the possibility that we may be "stuck" in western individualism. I think we are - a first century Jew would have thought far more corporately.

And I think this individualism has tainted the way we read passages like the famous Romans 9 account of vessels of destruction and vessels of mercy. I think that, in Romans 9 at least, Paul is indeed mounting an argument about salvation at the "corporate" level. I am not denying that, as per what Jojo has written, that, ultimately, salvation is an individual matter. But, in Romans 9 at least, Paul is still making an argument at the corporate level.

Brother, Romans 9 is about what has happened to the nation of Israel and with the bringing in of the gentile nations. It isnt teaching corporate salvation.
Its not even teaching what many seem to think it is about predestination.

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.
For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(Rom 9:30-33 KJV)

 

[Guest]

How could it not be an individual matter? One makes the decision to follow Christ by himself. No one can make it for him.

Are you familiar with individualism and collectivism?

 

[Guest]

I think you raise a very good question, specifically when you at least open up the possibility that we may be "stuck" in western individualism. I think we are - a first century Jew would have thought far more corporately.

It has been debated within the field of missiology for sometime. Books and journal articles in missiology are riddled with perspectives on this question. It's a good and intriguing question. It was this question which caused me to start exploring the role culture plays in our interpretation of the Scriptures.

I am not denying that, as per what Jojo has written, that, ultimately, salvation is an individual matter.

Is it? Is it possible we do not "choose" but react based on deeply ingrained cultural precepts? I know many Americans are repulsed by Koreans eating dog meat. Is there any reason why dog meat should be any more or less acceptable in a given society beyond culture?

 

[Drew]

Brother, Romans 9 is about what has happened to the nation of Israel and with the bringing in of the gentile nations. It isnt teaching corporate salvation.

I never intended to say that Romans 9 teaches "corporate salvation". I said that he is making an argument about salvation at the corporate level. That is not the same thing, altough perhaps I should have explained the difference. No time to do that now.

 

[Nick]

what do you mean by corporate salvation? Do you mean collective salvation?

 

[follower of Christ]

I know many Americans are repulsed by Koreans eating dog meat. Is there any reason why dog meat should be any more or less acceptable in a given society beyond culture?

Scripture covers these sorts of frivolities in life in Romans 14. Eating meat, ANY meat, is a personal choice and if a culture wants to eat dogs, well thats really not that big a deal. Pass me a plate, I'll give it a try

As far as salvation goes, we can toss philosophy and guesswork out the window because the bible, the word of the One True God, shows very clearly what is required of the individual to be saved.
As far as the corporate goes it is only about fellowship not salvation.

Scripture tells wives to ask their husbands at home.
Seems to me that if salvation were corporate then this sort of statement would be putting the wife at risk who was in that scenario by not letting her operate within the corporate setting. Why tell her to ask her husband at home *IF* the corporate were *required* either to learn or for salvation.

 

[follower of Christ]

Brother, Romans 9 is about what has happened to the nation of Israel and with the bringing in of the gentile nations. It isnt teaching corporate salvation.

I never intended to say that Romans 9 teaches "corporate salvation". I said that he is making an argument about salvation at the corporate level. That is not the same thing, altough perhaps I should have explained the difference. No time to do that now.

When I read Romans 9 I pretty much only see what got Israel in trouble, what happened to her as a whole, and how the gentiles were brought into the picture.
Maybe theres something there I missed, so Id be very interested in seeing what youre thinking is

 

[JoJo]

I am not denying that, as per what Jojo has written, that, ultimately, salvation is an individual matter.

Is it? Is it possible we do not "choose" but react based on deeply ingrained cultural precepts?

This reasoning dismisses the possibility of having an intimate relationship with the Lord. It implies that we seek salvation based on what we've learned, on our cultural influences. If we are raised in a Muslim household, we will be Muslim, right? If we are raised Catholic, we will be Catholic? But the world is full of countless testimonies of people born and raised in non-Christian cultures and yet they eventually found the truth of Christ and experience an intimate relationship with Him.

That's what being a Christian is all about. It isn't about going to church or sticking to tradition. It is about a personal and deep relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, our God and our Savior.

 

[Vic C.]

I don't believe Gentiles are brought to salvation corporately, but I do believe a remnant of "Israel " is.

 

[Guest]

what do you mean by corporate salvation? Do you mean collective salvation?

Yes.

 

[Guest]

This reasoning dismisses the possibility of having an intimate relationship with the Lord. It implies that we seek salvation based on what we've learned, on our cultural influences. If we are raised in a Muslim household, we will be Muslim, right? If we are raised Catholic, we will be Catholic? But the world is full of countless testimonies of people born and raised in non-Christian cultures and yet they eventually found the truth of Christ and experience an intimate relationship with Him.

We are not discussing cultural religions, but rather the influence of culture on how one comes to salvation and the theological flexibility of such perspectives -- if such flexibility so exists. That is, does a person necessarily have to make the decision for themselves? Or can an authority figure make the decision on behalf of a community?

It is about a personal and deep relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, our God and our Savior.

Is it? Or is this an idea which has developed within the American Evangelical theological perspective because of the influence of American culture, particularly individualism?

 

[Vic C.]

I'm finding your line of questioning a little confusing. How can any authority other than God make decisions like who is and isn't saved? Do you know of passages that systematically make this claim? That would be like telling God who to save. I don't find that Biblical, not this side of the Cross anyway.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Notice that ye is singular while yourselves is plural.

 

[Guest]

I'm finding your line of questioning a little confusing. How can any authority other than God make decisions like who is and isn't saved? Do you know of passages that systematically make this claim? That would be like telling God who to save. I don't find that Biblical, not this side of the Cross anyway.

To understand my point, one needs to understand an important distinction being made between decisions and reactions*. Within American Evangelical Christianity it is common to talk about the "point" at which one becomes a Christian. That is, we often pinpoint a specific time when we made a conscious decision to accept Christ. This is not odd to us because we have a strong emphasis on making personal decisions for ourselves.

Whereas, in some other cultures, often times the decision is made by someone in authority over the group. The others within the group do not make a conscious decision to follow the group, but follow as a reaction. Thus, when a grandfather becomes a Christian, he does not only make the decision for himself, but everyone in the family. The others follow out of reaction, not a conscious decision.

* Both can be considered "decisions," but I use the term decision to denote a conscious deliberation of a matter before making the choice. Whereas, a reaction is a decision made without conscious deliberation. To understand the difference, consider consciously kicking your leg out versus a patellar reflex (i.e., doctor hitting just below your knee with a small mallet).

 

[Vic C.]

Whereas, in some other cultures, often times the decision is made by someone in authority over the group. The others within the group do not make a conscious decision to follow the group, but follow as a reaction. Thus, when a grandfather becomes a Christian, he does not only make the decision for himself, but everyone in the family. The others follow out of reaction, not a conscious decision.

No, I understand, coming from an Italian, Catholic family.

For me, that doesn't count. It's not convicted faith. Actually, that's not faith at all. The Spaniards tried that during their inquisitions. They "forced" Jews to convert or die. Some died because the faith in Judaism was strong; some converted to save their lives.

 

[Guest]

For me, that doesn't count. It's not convicted faith. Actually, that's not faith at all. The Spaniards tried that during their inquisitions. They "forced" Jews to convert or die. Some died because the faith in Judaism was strong; some converted to save their lives.

The idea being discussed is not equal to a forced conversion -- be it by the sword or other milder forms of coercion.

 

[JoJo]

It is about a personal and deep relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, our God and our Savior.

Is it? Or is this an idea which has developed within the American Evangelical theological perspective because of the influence of American culture, particularly individualism?

Minnesota, I enjoy a personal and deep relationship with the Lord. I did not learn this relationship or inherit it from past generations. It was not given to me by any man-authority. It is a two-way relationship of love and adoration. No one taught me this. I was taught to believe in Jesus as my Savior. The relationship came after the belief.