Salvation through Christ alone not works less any man should boast.

[Elijah674]

James's Epistle shows that one demonstrates the reality of one's faith by one's works. Though the works themselves do not gain any saving merit with God (Ephesians 2.8,9).

True, it just proves that if Obedience is lacking, that the individual or individuals do not have the Holy Spirit's New Birth to begin with. For He is only given on the condition of Obedience. (note Acts 5:32 below James 2's DEAD ones)

Jame 2
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Acts 5
[32] And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

And we see most call their themselves Christians while just doing there own thing. Gen. 4:7's type.

---Elijah

 

[Digger]

Well if you're not interested in debating then I guess I should just ignore your posts, is that what you're telling me?

Yes, that would be a very good idea.

 

[Elijah674]

Yes, that would be a very good idea.

Debate?? Titus 3:9-11 has these ones 'there' classified as VAIN after just once or twice it says. Meaning of course the ones in the verse, huh??

Titus 3
[9] But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable [[[and vain]]].
[10] A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
[11] Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

So, why is it that we see Rom. 8:1! & then on to verse 14 of being Led of the Holy Spirit, and now not being able to LEAD that Born Again JUSTIFIED person [[ANY WHERE????]]:fight And with NO LOVINGLY OBEDIENT WORKS??? Jms. 2:10

--Elijah

 

[Stan53]

Yes, that would be a very good idea.

Done

 

[Lloyd]

I guess we need to ask ourselves a question. Is it about us or God?

Whether my salvation is from believing, trusting, preaching, praying, helping the homeless, whatever .. my focus is living for God, in each moment of my life.

I'm pretty sure God knows what he's doing and knows who I am far better than I know myself. I also believe He is just, so I'll accept whatever my fate is in this life or the next, without cause or complaint.

What I do know is, I have the opportunity to live my life the best way I can for Him, with Christ as my Saviour and example. I have what, say 80 years if I'm lucky? I'm not wasting that time kicking back thinking my works are of little significance in the grand scheme of things, I'm going to strive each day to live the life Christ called me to live.

I'm not looking for a high-five if I get to heaven, as if I did anything great. All glory belongs to God, I am nothing. I just wanna tap Jesus on the shoulder and say thank you for the opportunity.

 

[spartakis]

Then you believe in salvation by your works, something you must do ! Accepting Christ is something you do right ? If it is something you do, its a work, simple as that ! You have reason to boast against the next guy who did not do what you did !

Sorry faith is not a work. Salvation is accepting a gift. When you do nothing and receive a gift you did not work for or earn this gift.

 

[Elijah674]

Sorry faith is not a work. Salvation is accepting a gift. When you do nothing and receive a gift you did not work for or earn this gift.

'i' think that all ones best check out what a workless 'f'aith is. Also see if you can find one who teach's such in todays setting who do not work, work & more work? Check this site alone?? And these ones are seen 'promising liberty' with no working 'obedient' faith. (see 2 Peter 2:19)

Again, these 'only believe' (whoever they END UP BEING????) ones remind me of the ones back in the OT earthly Sanctuary time of offering... even the correct lamb sacrifice 'in faith' & who could claim 'rightfully so' that of Rom. 8:1 of no Condemnation.

And then instead of going on as required to wash as the Laver?? they would post over & over again... OSAS! or ONLY BELIEVE LORD!! & then just turn around & go on back home just as lost as before!With NO Rom. 8:14's verse being seen! But just that of no WORKS being their constant cry! SURE LORD, I,I,I,I,I Love you & not even making it into where the bread was to be eaten, representing Matt.4:3-4
[3] And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
[4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

But forum: This is just one of many very false doctrines that this one doctrine identifies. James 2:10
--Elijah

PS: Me again. Hey Lloyd, I read in Eccl. 1
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
[10] Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

It sure sounds like Inspiration is telling us that what one hears today about 'OSAS + only believism' was the same message brought forth by Lucifer in heaven, & Cain??? I can just hear both telling God that they believe & surely had for many mature moons! And both became loving killers, so we just best understand ones fate.

 

[spartakis]

Faith should produce good works but is not a work but also a gift from God.
Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

You need to look at context very important. James is talking to scattered believers trying to motivate them to do good works instead of hiding in fear of persecution which is what was happening at that time.

 

[savedbygrace57]

spar

Faith should produce good works but is not a work

The believing aspect of faith is a work, something man does with his mind or heart !

 

[Elijah674]

'i' think that all ones best check out what a workless 'f'aith is. Also see if you can find one who teach's such in todays setting who do not work, work & more work? Check this site alone?? And these ones are seen 'promising liberty' with no working 'obedient' faith. (see 2 Peter 2:19)

Again, these 'only believe' (whoever they END UP BEING????) ones remind me of the ones back in the OT earthly Sanctuary time of offering... even the correct lamb sacrifice 'in faith' & who could claim 'rightfully so' that of Rom. 8:1 of no Condemnation.

And then instead of going on as required to wash as the Laver?? they would post over & over again... OSAS! or ONLY BELIEVE LORD!! & then just turn around & go on back home just as lost as before!With NO Rom. 8:14's verse being seen! But just that of no WORKS being their constant cry! SURE LORD, I,I,I,I,I Love you & not even making it into where the bread was to be eaten, representing Matt.4:3-4
[3] And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
[4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

But forum: This is just one of many very false doctrines that this one doctrine identifies. James 2:10
--Elijah

PS: Me again. Hey Lloyd, I read in Eccl. 1
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
[10] Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

It sure sounds like Inspiration is telling us that what one hears today about 'OSAS + only believism' was the same message brought forth by Lucifer in heaven, & Cain??? I can just hear both telling God that they believe & surely had for many mature moons! And both became loving killers, so we just best understand ones fate.

Lloyd, see here in Gen. 4 .. where God required not only WORKING FAITH, but OBEDIENT WORKING FAITH to stay.. SAVED 'BY FAITH'.

[4] And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
[5] But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. (reminds me of some today!)
[6] And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
[7] [[If thou doest]] well, shalt thou not be accepted? and [[if thou doest]] not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. (satan is always right there to claim his own, huh? but was he to remain workless for satan? hardly!)

(and wow, that is as clear as crystal for the Faithful anyhow. A faithful Obedient work was required & even told twice for a second chance, or ealse. And Cain at that point had a new DESIRED master. And Cain became satan's first fullfledged convert by commiting the sin unto death against God in person to person & in full MATURITY.)

[8] And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Another good verse to see on faith that works in the loving satanic opposite direction of Obedience is seen in John 12, and that has both REAL FAITH seen there + REAL Love for something other than God....

[42] Nevertheless among the chief rulers [[also many believed on him]]; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
[43] For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

And again Inspiration has it.. What IS NEW? Eccl. 3:15 Not much, except here in today's setting we find a whole sinking raft full of satanic false doctrines being taught for truth. And boasting?? Who are the ones telling all that they are saved by only faith, + OSAS??

--Elijah

 

[Stan53]

spar



The believing aspect of faith is a work, something man does with his mind or heart !

Belief is a result of faith, NOT a work. Even in the most traditonal sense of the Mosaic Law, faith requires NO work, or it would result on people being stoned for doing work on the Sabbath.
This statement of yours completely contradicts Eph 2:8

 

[savedbygrace57]

Belief is a result of faith, NOT a work.

Beliving is part of Faith, the mental assent of Faith. The greek word for faith is pistis and means:

conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it

This is done by the mind or the heart of man. Man believes with his heart Rom 10:10

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Thats an action verb believeth
pisteuō:

to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence

Now, a work according to the definition of the word ergon is this:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

So there you have it, Believing is a work ! If you say you are saved because you believed or had faith, and the next man who did not do that remains lost, you are boasting of your works !

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Is faith something you do or something you have?

Faith is something you do. The bible ties faith and works so closely together that faith is a work, 1 Thess 1:3....remove the works and you kill the faith, so faith and works MUST go hand in hand. A faith void of works is dead and a dead faith cannot save. The bible makes mention of different types of works; works of God, works of Satan, works of the flesh, odedient works such as faith, etc. So when the 'faith only' crowd try and eliminate ALL types of works from salvation they are eliminating the work of faith from salvation. They are left trying to defend the idea that a dead faith can save.

 

[Elijah674]

Faith is something you do. The bible ties faith and works so closely together that faith is a work, 1 Thess 1:3....remove the works and you kill the faith, so faith and works MUST go hand in hand. A faith void of works is dead and a dead faith cannot save. The bible makes mention of different types of works; works of God, works of Satan, works of the flesh, odedient works such as faith, etc. So when the 'faith only' crowd try and eliminate ALL types of works from salvation they are eliminating the work of faith from salvation. They are left trying to defend the idea that a dead faith can save.

Even satan has his 'own' who work for him. And if they did not, what then??

 

[Stan53]

Beliving is part of Faith, the mental assent of Faith. The greek word for faith is pistis and means:

conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it

This is done by the mind or the heart of man. Man believes with his heart Rom 10:10

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Thats an action verb believeth
pisteuō:

to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence

Now, a work according to the definition of the word ergon is this:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

So there you have it, Believing is a work ! If you say you are saved because you believed or had faith, and the next man who did not do that remains lost, you are boasting of your works !

Your circular reasoning doesn't work, because James clearly says FAITH, without works is dead. So obviously faith stands on it's own. Jesus said in Luke 7:50; “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.â€
Faith gives us the impetus to grow in Christ. It is what should move us along to maturity in Christ, and in most it does. James what identifying the fact that REAL faith produces REAL works in our lives as we grow. This however, happens AFTER salvation, which does NOT require ANY works as the Bible clearly indicates.

 

[WIP]

Faith is something you do. The bible ties faith and works so closely together that faith is a work, 1 Thess 1:3....remove the works and you kill the faith, so faith and works MUST go hand in hand. A faith void of works is dead and a dead faith cannot save. The bible makes mention of different types of works; works of God, works of Satan, works of the flesh, odedient works such as faith, etc. So when the 'faith only' crowd try and eliminate ALL types of works from salvation they are eliminating the work of faith from salvation. They are left trying to defend the idea that a dead faith can save.

I agree faith and works go hand in hand but at the moment I hold that works are an expression of faith but faith may not be an expression of works. There are many that do good works but have not faith. For them their works are dead. For those who claim they have faith but do not works, their faith is dead and they are deceiving themselves and others.

M't:5:13:Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
M't:5:14: Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
M't:5:15: Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
M't:5:16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 

[Stan53]

Faith is something you do. The bible ties faith and works so closely together that faith is a work, 1 Thess 1:3....remove the works and you kill the faith, so faith and works MUST go hand in hand. A faith void of works is dead and a dead faith cannot save. The bible makes mention of different types of works; works of God, works of Satan, works of the flesh, odedient works such as faith, etc. So when the 'faith only' crowd try and eliminate ALL types of works from salvation they are eliminating the work of faith from salvation. They are left trying to defend the idea that a dead faith can save.

Faith is something you HAVE. Works is produced by faith. 1 Thess 1:3; We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul is addressing people who were already saved and whose works were demonstrating the reality of their salvation, which came ONLY by faith.
Romans 10:9-10; If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,†and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
Belief in what God says about His Son is demonstrated by the confession with our mouth.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Faith is something you HAVE. Works is produced by faith. 1 Thess 1:3; We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul is addressing people who were already saved and whose works were demonstrating the reality of their salvation, which came ONLY by faith.
Romans 10:9-10; If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
Belief in what God says about His Son is demonstrated by the confession with our mouth.

First, 1 Thess 1:3 shows that faith is a work, "work of faith" - "ergon pistis" is literally work faith. A working faith saves and "faith only" is not a working faith for faith only is void of works. So how can a faith empty of works produce works? Can an empty water bottle produce water? It's impossible.
Mk 2:5 says Jesus "saw their faith". What was it that Jesus saw that is called faith? The work those men did. Jesus saw the work these men did in removing the roof and lowering the sick man down to Him and their work is here is called faith.

Secondly, James already made the point that a living, viable faith has works. A faith that has no works is dead therefore "faith alone" is dead for it is void of works. So again, how does a dead faith only ever produce works when it is DEAD?

Lastly, Rom 10:9,10 proves my point. Paul said one has to both believe unto righteousness and confess with the mouth unto salvation. Both belief, Jn 6:27ff and confessing with the mouth are works, they are something done. And these two works are "UNTO salvation" not "because of salvation", so Rom 10:9,10 puts works before salvation.

 

[zeke]

James what identifying the fact that REAL faith produces REAL works in our lives as we grow. This however, happens AFTER salvation, which does NOT require ANY works as the Bible clearly indicates.

Actually, you are mistaken again Stan. Salvation does require "works" before one shall be saved. We must "work the works of God" if we are to be His. Man cannot "earn salvation" via works - salvation is a gift from God but man must do that which God requires in order to be saved.

Faith itself is one of the works of God that man must do. To say that man can do nothing to be saved is an error - man must work the works of God, i.e., man must do that which God requires via obedience to His will.

"Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent"" (John 6:27-28). ​

 

[Elijah674]

Actually, you are mistaken again Stan. Salvation does require "works" before one shall be saved. We must "work the works of God" if we are to be His. Man cannot "earn salvation" via works - salvation is a gift from God but man must do that which God requires in order to be saved.

Faith itself is one of the works of God that man must do. To say that man can do nothing to be saved is an error - man must work the works of God, i.e., man must do that which God requires via obedience to His will.

"Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent"" (John 6:27-28).
​

Hi, it is amazing how one that claim's to be Born Again would argue against Loving Faithful OBEDIENCE to Christ?????

Phil. 4:13 + 2 Cor. 12:9 has Christ saying what, that we can or can't OBEY BY HIS GRACE???